When did the Andals leave Essos?

[Free Northman Reborn]

Yes it is he is mentioned as one of the few kings worth mentioning by Yandel becouse of his wars with the Hungry Wolf.

Well that settled it then. I don't understand why this elicited so much debate then, given how clearly Harrag is placed in the timeline by Yandel. There is nothing to dispute then.

The only anomaly is Aeron Damphair saying Harrag was chosen by kingsmoot. So either there was a kingsmoot in the midst of the Andal Hoare dynasty, or more likely, Aeron was mixing him up with some other king that lived thousands of years earlier.

Edit

By the way, this settles the timeline of the Andal invasion as well. It started around 3000 years ago and ended around 2000 years ago.

[direpupy]

Are we sure the Harrag that Aeron mentioned was a Hoare?

 

I think youre right  Aeron probably mixed him up with someone else.

[direpupy]

There is a Harron under the Driftwood Kings who slew a Gardner King beneath the walls of Oldtown, perhaps Aeron was mistaking Harron and Harrag with each other.

 

Harron was of House Harlaw so that would be a big mistake by the Damphair tough.

[Free Northman Reborn]

Is there any Hoare mentioned as a Driftwood king?

[direpupy]

Only Qhored the Cruel.

 

But as said the are clearly mentioned as one of the four Ironborn Houses that make common couse with the Andals to depose Rognar II Greyiron the last Greyiron King.

 

So at the weary least Yandel thinks them an ancient Ironborn House.

[direpupy]

Then again there are actually only 6 Houses mentioned as having provided Driftwood kings.

 

Greyiron, Goodbrother, Greyjoy, Harlaw, Blacktyde and Hoare.

 

Oops its 7 Houses i forgot Drumm :blushing:

[direpupy]

Made a count of the mentioned Driftwood Kings

 

2 Greyirons, 1 Goodbrother, 2 Greyjoys, 2 Harlaws, 1 Blacktide, 1 Drumm and 1 Hoare (who in some acounts is mentioned as a Greyiron or a Blacktide)

 

And there is supposidly a list of 111 Driftwood Kings in Archmaester Haereg's History of the Ironborn that is said to be incomplete and rife with contradictions.

[direpupy]

Free Northman

 

Ive been thinking about the numbers on my way to work today, and your 3000 years ago is the absolut minimum for the beginning of the Andal invasion.

 

the Rape of the Sisters is aproccemetly 2000 years ago so this is give or take a century, the same goes for the 1000 years it took the Andals to get to the Iron Islands, and the 200 years between Harras "Stump-Hand" Hoare and Harrag Hoare is the absolut minimum for this, the number of named kings between them should account for these years, but since it is mentioned that Harrag lived in the bleak centuries (plural) after Haron died it could be twice as much.

 

So the figures seem to be:

Minimum: 1900 + 900 + 200 = 3000 years ago

maximum: 2100 + 1100 + 400 = 3600 years ago

Average: 2000 + 1000 + 300 = 3300 years ago

[Mithras]

So the timeline then is:

 

3000 years ago - Era of the Driftwood kings ends as House Greyiron begins their 1000 year dynasty.

                            Andal invasion of Westeros begins.

                            Red Kings bow to Winterfell.

 

2000 years ago - Andals succeed in conquering the Iron Isles with the help of House Hoare and end the Greyiron dynasty.

                            Theon Stark takes power in the North.

                            Argos Sevenstar's invasion is crushed at the Weeping Water.

                            Andal invasion of Westeros effectively ends.

 

Theon Stark made "common cause" with the Boltons against Argos. You don't make a common cause with your bannermen. You command them.

 

So, when Argos was defeated, Boltons had not bent knee to Winterfell.

[Free Northman Reborn]

Free Northman

 

Ive been thinking about the numbers on my way to work today, and your 3000 years ago is the absolut minimum for the beginning of the Andal invasion.

 

the Rape of the Sisters is aproccemetly 2000 years ago so this is give or take a century, the same goes for the 1000 years it took the Andals to get to the Iron Islands, and the 200 years between Harras "Stump-Hand" Hoare and Harrag Hoare is the absolut minimum for this, the number of named kings between them should account for these years, but since it is mentioned that Harrag lived in the bleak centuries (plural) after Haron died it could be twice as much.

 

So the figures seem to be:

Minimum: 1900 + 900 + 200 = 3000 years ago

maximum: 2100 + 1100 + 400 = 3600 years ago

Average: 2000 + 1000 + 300 = 3300 years ago

 

Sure. 3000 years is an approximation, which almost certainly swings either way by a few centuries. As a basis for comparison, though, let's look at the known Targaryen kings since Aegon.

 

According to the wiki there were 17 Targaryen kings from Aegon to Aerys. This covered a period of about 270 years. Considering that the Ironborn probably lived in a more savage time, with shorter lifespans and more frequent violent deaths, given that their kings were often just glorified raiders, it is quite reasonable to think that in the days of Harras Stumphand Hoare, kings would not last as long as the average Targaryen king did. Meaning that if there were 17 Targaryen kings in 270 years there could quite conceivably have been 17 Hoare kings in half that time. Say an average of one king every 10 years or something.

 

Still, it is all conjecture. There were clearly a number of generations between Harras Hoare and Harrag Hoare.

[Free Northman Reborn]

 

Theon Stark made "common cause" with the Boltons against Argos. You don't make a common cause with your bannermen. You command them.

 

So, when Argos was defeated, Boltons had not bent knee to Winterfell.

 

Impossible, as we are told that the Red Kings bent the knee to the Starks when the first Andals were crossing the Narrow Sea in their longships. And we know the first Andals landed in the Vale. It was quite some time before they ventured to other regions.

 

Also, note the big deal that is made about even the recent Battle of Long Lake, where the Starks joined with the Umbers to Smash Raymun Redbeard a mere 70 years ago. The Umbers are probably the most loyal Stark bannermen you could find, but it is still recorded quite clearly that the Starks joined with them to defeat the wildlings.

 

The Starks making common cause with the Boltons is simply a turn of phrase, and by no means suggests that the Boltons were not subservient to the Starks at the time.

[Free Northman Reborn]

So we can now say with a degree of confidence that 3000 years ago is quite a significant period in the history of Westeros.

 

This is more or less when the Andal invasion commenced. This is also when the era of the Driftwood Kings ended and the Greyiron dynasty begain. And it is also when the last Red Kings bowed to the Starks. Since the Boltons were the last independent kings in the North to bow to Winterfell, we therefore know that the Wolfsden is older than 3000 years, since the Marsh King was only subdued by the Starks a generation after Jon Stark founded the Wolfsden. And this had to predate the subjugation of the Red Kings of the Dreadfort.

 

This fits in quite nicely with the overall Northern timeline, as given in Ser Bartimus's tale.

[Mithras]

Not to mention, Wolf's Den was raised by Jon Stark before the coming of the Andals to defend the mouth of White Knife against raiders and slavers. Some maesters suggest that these were early Andal incursions and that makes most sense.

[Lord Varys]

When the Starks first subdued the Red Kings one assumes they first lost their crowns, but we know that the Boltons rose again and again against the Starks, so it is easily imaginable that the Hungry Wolf either lived during a time when the Boltons were independent again or this shortly after the original submission that it was strange/noteworthy that Winterfell and the Dreadfort would make common cause in anything.

 

And we don't even know how long it took until the Starks were able to enforce their will in their conquered kingdoms. One assumes that they were nothing but nominal overlords in the beginning not really able to enforce their will in the conquered territories.

[direpupy]

Mithras

 

I agree with Free Northman on the Bolton's most likely Theon Stark and Balthasar Bolton did the same thing as William Stark and The Drunken Giant of House Umber did at the Long Lake catch the enemy between two armies, one led by Theon and one led by Balthasar.

[Mithras]

Impossible, as we are told that the Red Kings bent the knee to the Starks when the first Andals were crossing the Narrow Sea in their longships. And we know the first Andals landed in the Vale. It was quite some time before they ventured to other regions.

 

We do not know that.

 

That is the problem.

 

That is the whole point of this thread.

 

When and how Andals invaded Westeros is a shrouded mystery.

 

The bolded part is an assumption whereas making common cause with a Lord not sworn to you is a fact. So, you should modify the assumption with regards to the known facts.

[direpupy]

So the worldbook that says explicitly that the first Andal landings where in the Vale is wrong? I think your the one that is making assumpitions here Mithras

[Mithras]

So the worldbook that says explicitly that the first Andal landings where in the Vale is wrong? I think your the one that is making assumpitions here Mithras

 

The world book says that according to some maesters, early Andals were raiding the North before Wolf's Den was built, which is actually why Wolf's Den was built.

[Free Northman Reborn]

Not to mention, Wolf's Den was raised by Jon Stark before the coming of the Andals to defend the mouth of White Knife against raiders and slavers. Some maesters suggest that these were early Andal incursions and that makes most sense.

 

If we take a more long term strategic view of it, things get more interesting.

 

I reckon the Wolf's Den was critical to the North's ability to repel the Andals. The White Knife gave the Andals access deep into the interior of the North. By securing its mouth with the Wolfsden fortress, the Starks denied such access to the Andal longships, forcing them to make landfall on the coasts and therefore having to march overland over hostile terrain for vast distances to get to the interior. Thus leaving them vulnerable to be picked off by Northern forces at leisure.

 

It is no coincidence that the biggest Andal invasion of the North happened on the Weeping Water, which is the next big river above the White Knife, by which the Andals no doubt sought to transport a large force into the Northern interior. It was therefore most likely the Boltons who beseeched the Starks to come to their aid, as this Andal incursion struck into the heart of the Bolton lands. This was made possible due to the Boltons lacking a similar Wolfsden-like fortress to guard the mouth of the Weeping Water.

 

It was no doubt precisely because of the presence of the Wolfsden that Argos Sevenstar was forced to invade via the Weeping Water instead. Thus not only making the Andals have to travel farther by sea (no doubt losing a number of ships during the longer voyage), but also increasing their logistical burden and weakening them further.

 

As a side benefit, it also directed more Andal attention to the lands of the Stark's most belligerent vassals, the Boltons, while protecting the lands of the Starks themselves. So the building of the Wolfsden was likely a pivotal event in the history of the North, which was a huge leap for the Starks to strengthen their rule on the North, while weakening the Boltons in the long term.

[direpupy]

The also give several other options for these raiders and im sorry but i don't agree that the Andals make the most sence, to me it seems that the Sistermen are the most likely candidates after al it is there constant raiding that promps the Rape of the Sisters. Heck the Andals are actualy given as the least likely option.