When did the Andals leave Essos?

[AlaskanSandman]

I stumbled across an interesting observation during the discussion on Theon Stark. Theon's lifetime is actually a remarkably good good marker in the timeline of Westeros, mostly because of the number of prominent events and figures that were contemporaneous with him.
 
1. We know the biggest Andal invasion of the North occurred during his lifetime.
2. We know the Vale was already under Arryn control.
3. We know Harrag Hoare was King of the Iron isles and warred against Theon. In fact, Theon slayed his son Ravos in battle.
4. We know Theon conquered the Three Sisters.
5. We know Theon landed an army in the Fingers.
 
 
From the above we can deduce a remarkable amount of likely truths.
 
From Argos Sevenstar's military campaign in the North,  we know that the Andal invasion was still in full swing during Theon's lifetime. We also know that the invasion was not close to its start, because the Vale was already firmly ruled by the Arryns. Furthermore, we know that Harrag Hoare only came to power once the Andals had extinguished House Greyiron's line on the Iron Isles. And we know that the Iron Isles only fell to the Andals late in the Andal invasion - after the Vale and Riverlands had already fallen.
 
So from the above we know that Theon Stark lived at least a couple of centuries after the Andals first landed in the Vale.
 
Theon's conquest of the Three Sisters is also noteworthy if you think about it for a moment. It seems that before the Rape of the Three Sisters, the Northmen had never conquered the Three Sisters, but had instead been satisfied with building the Wolfsden to protect the White Knife from the Sistermen.
 
Note that the World Book states that after Theon slew Argos Sevenstar, he raised his own fleet to invade Andalos. This implies that the Starks did not have a fleet before that. This, together with the reference to the Starks joining with the Boltons to defeat Argos, and with the footnote about Belthasar Bolton making his tent from the flayed skins of 100 Sistermen during the Rape of Sisterton, strongly suggests that it was Theon's fleet built for the invasion of Andalos that gave him the naval ability to invade the Three Sisters thereafter. Before that, he did not have a fleet with which to do so.
 
Given that the Sistermen then called on the Arryns to aid them, it would also explain why Theon landed an army in the Fingers. Why else pick a fight with the Arryns?

So the above strongly supports the conclusion that Theon was the Stark who executed the Rape of the Three Sisters.
 
And as a side note, Theon's wars in Andalos, the Sisters and the Vale are eerie echoes of Robb taking his army South and leaving the North vulnerable to Ironborn attack. Indeed, we then read that Harrag Hoare attacked the North's west coast and took Cape Kraken and Bear Island from the Starks. Why would he do this, knowing Theon's warlike reputation? Obviously because the cream of the North's forces were away in Andalos, the Sisters and the Vale and Harrag felt they were ripe for the picking.
 
Only, unlike Robb, Theon Stark returned to the North and repelled the Ironborn from Cape Kraken and Bear Island, slayring Harrag's son Ravos in the process.
 
Given the dating of the Rape of the Three Sisters as 2000 years ago by the maesters this gives us a nice marker for the latter stages of the Andal invasion. This also ties in very nicely with a separate dating, given by Lord Blackwood's bookish son, who stated that the Andals conquered the Iron Isles either 4000 years ago, or 2000 years ago, depending on which timeline to believe.
 
Well, given that Harrag Hoare was the king chosen at a Kingsmoot shortly after the Andal conquest of the Iron Isles, we now know that this Kingsmoot happened during the lifetime of Theon Stark. And since the Starks first conquered the Three Sisters during the Rape of Sisterton, we know that Theon is very likely to have been the Stark that did so. And that in turn tells us that the last Kingsmoot must have happened in the same generation as the Rape of the Three Sisters.
 
Also, unless someone is seriously suggesting that Theon Stark lived 4000 years ago - which is impossible given all the corroborating evidence to the contrary - all of the above tells us that the dating of 2000 years ago for both the last Kingsmoot, the arrival of the Andals in the Iron Islands, the North's invasion by Argos Sevenstar, and the Rape of the Three Sisters is the correct one.
 
To me the above is pretty much incontrovertible proof that the Andal invasion finally conquered the Iron Isles a few generations before Harrag, who lived 2000 years ago, not 4000 years ago. This conquest happened during the lifetime of Harrag's ancestor, Harras, who was the first Hoare King. Meaning that the Andals likely first arrived in the Vale a few centuries  before that. Which in my book places the Andal invasion between around 2400 and 1800 years ago, depending on how many further invasion attempts there were after Theon scared the living daylights out of Argos's kin on their home turf.
 
For all we know it was Theon Stark who finally put an end to the Andal invasions for good, by bringing war and devastation to Andalos itself, thus convincing the Andals to rather stay home from that point onwards. In which case the Andal invasion likely started around 2400 years ago, and ended around 2000 years ago.
 
Thanks to Theon, and the information we have on his lifetime, we can connect a lot of dots about that period of history.
 
EDIT
 
Note that there is the well known discrepancy between the statement that Urron Redhand Greyiron was the last king chosen at a Kingsmoot, and Aeron Greyjoy's statement that Harrag Hoare was chosen at a Kingsmoot. Since House Hoare ruled the Iron Isles after House Greyiron became extinct, both cannot be true.
 
Nevertheless, this does not change my above timeline analysis, since the date of the last kingsmoot is not crucial to it. The dating of Harrag's lifetime is what's important, and we know he lived after the Andals had conquered the Iron Isles, and contemporaneous with Theon Stark's lifetime.

   I like your questioning and logic. I agree that there are events like this that you can use to mark things and connect people and events( Loran Greyjoy is one person who connects to Rodrik Stark, and Torren (who knelt) is said to be in the Crypts near to Rodriks tomb. So that tells us that they were some wheres with in the century or so of each other as theres deeper levels for the older stark crypts.) In the case of the Iron Islanders im still working out all the info as there is alottt, but im looking for answers in the Riverlands and in other stories. As house Hoare ruled the riverlands from a certain time up to Aegons Conquest. The RIverlands seem to be ruled by different families across the time frame, as i can tell it goes like this ( Bracken, Blackwood, FIshers, Mudd, Hooks, Justmans, Teagues, Durrandons, hoares, and then on to the Tullys in the time of Aegon I). Thats as they seem to appeat through history. Im still doin alot of stuff tho to try and lock in the dates using only whats in the books, but its a lot of info to sift through. 

[AlaskanSandman]

I stumbled across an interesting observation during the discussion on Theon Stark. Theon's lifetime is actually a remarkably good good marker in the timeline of Westeros, mostly because of the number of prominent events and figures that were contemporaneous with him.
 
1. We know the biggest Andal invasion of the North occurred during his lifetime.
2. We know the Vale was already under Arryn control.
3. We know Harrag Hoare was King of the Iron isles and warred against Theon. In fact, Theon slayed his son Ravos in battle.
4. We know Theon conquered the Three Sisters.
5. We know Theon landed an army in the Fingers.
 
 
From the above we can deduce a remarkable amount of likely truths.
 
From Argos Sevenstar's military campaign in the North,  we know that the Andal invasion was still in full swing during Theon's lifetime. We also know that the invasion was not close to its start, because the Vale was already firmly ruled by the Arryns. Furthermore, we know that Harrag Hoare only came to power once the Andals had extinguished House Greyiron's line on the Iron Isles. And we know that the Iron Isles only fell to the Andals late in the Andal invasion - after the Vale and Riverlands had already fallen.
 
So from the above we know that Theon Stark lived at least a couple of centuries after the Andals first landed in the Vale.
 
Theon's conquest of the Three Sisters is also noteworthy if you think about it for a moment. It seems that before the Rape of the Three Sisters, the Northmen had never conquered the Three Sisters, but had instead been satisfied with building the Wolfsden to protect the White Knife from the Sistermen.
 
Note that the World Book states that after Theon slew Argos Sevenstar, he raised his own fleet to invade Andalos. This implies that the Starks did not have a fleet before that. This, together with the reference to the Starks joining with the Boltons to defeat Argos, and with the footnote about Belthasar Bolton making his tent from the flayed skins of 100 Sistermen during the Rape of Sisterton, strongly suggests that it was Theon's fleet built for the invasion of Andalos that gave him the naval ability to invade the Three Sisters thereafter. Before that, he did not have a fleet with which to do so.
 
Given that the Sistermen then called on the Arryns to aid them, it would also explain why Theon landed an army in the Fingers. Why else pick a fight with the Arryns?

So the above strongly supports the conclusion that Theon was the Stark who executed the Rape of the Three Sisters.
 
And as a side note, Theon's wars in Andalos, the Sisters and the Vale are eerie echoes of Robb taking his army South and leaving the North vulnerable to Ironborn attack. Indeed, we then read that Harrag Hoare attacked the North's west coast and took Cape Kraken and Bear Island from the Starks. Why would he do this, knowing Theon's warlike reputation? Obviously because the cream of the North's forces were away in Andalos, the Sisters and the Vale and Harrag felt they were ripe for the picking.
 
Only, unlike Robb, Theon Stark returned to the North and repelled the Ironborn from Cape Kraken and Bear Island, slayring Harrag's son Ravos in the process.
 
Given the dating of the Rape of the Three Sisters as 2000 years ago by the maesters this gives us a nice marker for the latter stages of the Andal invasion. This also ties in very nicely with a separate dating, given by Lord Blackwood's bookish son, who stated that the Andals conquered the Iron Isles either 4000 years ago, or 2000 years ago, depending on which timeline to believe.
 
Well, given that Harrag Hoare was the king chosen at a Kingsmoot shortly after the Andal conquest of the Iron Isles, we now know that this Kingsmoot happened during the lifetime of Theon Stark. And since the Starks first conquered the Three Sisters during the Rape of Sisterton, we know that Theon is very likely to have been the Stark that did so. And that in turn tells us that the last Kingsmoot must have happened in the same generation as the Rape of the Three Sisters.
 
Also, unless someone is seriously suggesting that Theon Stark lived 4000 years ago - which is impossible given all the corroborating evidence to the contrary - all of the above tells us that the dating of 2000 years ago for both the last Kingsmoot, the arrival of the Andals in the Iron Islands, the North's invasion by Argos Sevenstar, and the Rape of the Three Sisters is the correct one.
 
To me the above is pretty much incontrovertible proof that the Andal invasion finally conquered the Iron Isles a few generations before Harrag, who lived 2000 years ago, not 4000 years ago. This conquest happened during the lifetime of Harrag's ancestor, Harras, who was the first Hoare King. Meaning that the Andals likely first arrived in the Vale a few centuries  before that. Which in my book places the Andal invasion between around 2400 and 1800 years ago, depending on how many further invasion attempts there were after Theon scared the living daylights out of Argos's kin on their home turf.
 
For all we know it was Theon Stark who finally put an end to the Andal invasions for good, by bringing war and devastation to Andalos itself, thus convincing the Andals to rather stay home from that point onwards. In which case the Andal invasion likely started around 2400 years ago, and ended around 2000 years ago.
 
Thanks to Theon, and the information we have on his lifetime, we can connect a lot of dots about that period of history.
 
EDIT
 
Note that there is the well known discrepancy between the statement that Urron Redhand Greyiron was the last king chosen at a Kingsmoot, and Aeron Greyjoy's statement that Harrag Hoare was chosen at a Kingsmoot. Since House Hoare ruled the Iron Isles after House Greyiron became extinct, both cannot be true.
 
Nevertheless, this does not change my above timeline analysis, since the date of the last kingsmoot is not crucial to it. The dating of Harrag's lifetime is what's important, and we know he lived after the Andals had conquered the Iron Isles, and contemporaneous with Theon Stark's lifetime.

   I like your questioning and logic. I agree that there are events like this that you can use to mark things and connect people and events( Loran Greyjoy is one person who connects to Rodrik Stark, and Torren (who knelt) is said to be in the Crypts near to Rodriks tomb. So that tells us that they were some wheres with in the century or so of each other as theres deeper levels for the older stark crypts.) In the case of the Iron Islanders im still working out all the info as there is alottt, but im looking for answers in the Riverlands and in other stories. As house Hoare ruled the riverlands from a certain time up to Aegons Conquest. The RIverlands seem to be ruled by different families across the time frame, as i can tell it goes like this ( Bracken, Blackwood, FIshers, Mudd, Hooks, Justmans, Teagues, Durrandons, hoares, and then on to the Tullys in the time of Aegon I). Thats as they seem to appeat through history. Im still doin alot of stuff tho to try and lock in the dates using only whats in the books, but its a lot of info to sift through. 

[Mithras]

One thing not considered so far. In real world, there is this seasonal restriction to when people can go making raids or campaigns. With such unstable seasons, it should take much longer for the Andals to invade Westeros compared to Viking invasions of Britain and Western Europe. 

[Free Northman Reborn]

With regards to the Stark crypt timeline, we have some good markers to work with. Working backwards:

 

Torhenn Stark lived 300 years ago.

 

Rodrik Stark lives fairly close to him in time.

 

Going back further, we get Brandon the Burner and his father Brandon the Shipwright. There are strong indications that they lived within the last 1000 years, meaning somewhere between 1000 years ago and say 500 years ago, considering that they predate Rodrik, who predates Torhenn.

 

I wish we had the name of the Stark that gave White Harbor to the Manderlys, as he would be the 1000 years ago marker. But we don't.

 

Going back further we get Edrick Snowbeard and his great grandson Brandon Ice Eyes. We know they lived more than 1000 years ago, because the Wolfsden was not ruled by the Manderlys when Brandon Ice Eyes slaughtered the slavers there. So Brandon had to predate the establishment of White Harbor. Let's put him at around 1300 years ago.

 

Before Edrick Snowbeard we get the War Across the Water, between the North and the Vale, which seemed to last for a number of centuries at least. During this war the Three Sisters changed ownership at least 12 times. This war started  with the Rape of the Three Sisters, 2000 years ago, according to the Maesters. We have independently managed to place Theon Stark as a likely candidate to have lived at this time, and this ties in with the order of the Stark statues in the crypt, with Theon being placed before Edrick Snowbeard, Brandon Ice Eyes, or the Brandons that build and burnded the ships.

 

So the progression is pretty clear.

 

Then, before Theon we have a big gap to get all the way back to Jon Stark who build the Wolfsden, and his son Rickard who conquered the Neck. All we have to go on is Ser Bartimus's tale of the Greystarks, Flints, Locke's and many other Houses ruling it for what seems like a thousand years at least, quite aside from the many Stark heirs who ruled it before them.

 

If Ser Bartimus is correct, Jon Stark seems to have lived around 4000 years ago. If he exaggerated things a bit, Jon Stark more likely lived around 3000 years ago. I would be inclined to put him halfway between these two extremes at around 3500 years ago.

 

All of the above gives us a rough timeline, based on various sources, of the following:

 

Referring to hears before present:

 

3500 - Jon Stark - raised the Wolf's Den

3000 - the Greystarks ruled the Wolf's Den.

2500 - The Greystarks are destroyed after joining the Boltons in rebellion

2000 - Theon Stark brings devastation to the Andals, Rapes the Sisters, kills Harrag's son Ravos and begins the War acroos the Water with the Vale.

1300? - Brandon Ice Eyes kills the Slavers at the Wolfsden

1000 - The Stark in Winterfell gives White Harbor to the Manderlys

700 -  Brandon the Burner burns his father's fleet in grief

500 - Rodrik Stark gives Bear Island to the Mormonts  (This is also how long ago the Mormont's acquired Longclaw, presumably for the same valorous deed that got them raised to lordship.

300 years ago - Torhenn kneels to Aegon.

 

The Andal arrival would then have started shortly after the Greystarks were destroyed - and the Boltons were presumably finally forced to kneel to the Starks after this failed rebellion. This would have been around 2500 years ago. And the Andal invasion then presumably ended around the time of Theon Stark's life, or shortly thereafter.

[Ramsay Gimp]

Note that there is the well known discrepancy between the statement that Urron Redhand Greyiron was the last king chosen at a Kingsmoot, and Aeron Greyjoy's statement that Harrag Hoare was chosen at a Kingsmoot. Since House Hoare ruled the Iron Isles after House Greyiron became extinct, both cannot be true.
 
Nevertheless, this does not change my above timeline analysis, since the date of the last kingsmoot is not crucial to it. The dating of Harrag's lifetime is what's important, and we know he lived after the Andals had conquered the Iron Isles, and contemporaneous with Theon Stark's lifetime.

 

The Harrag Hoare you are talking about could not have been chosen in a Kingsmoot, since the Hoares were a hereditary dynasty like the Greyirons before them.

 

It's more likely that the Harrag Hoare mentioned by Aeron is a different, earlier one who supposedly lived during the times of the Kingsmoots. It's implied several times in the Worldbook that the Hoares were an Andal House who wrote themselves into Ironborn history after taking over the Islands

[Jaak]

Another obvious problem: Iron Islands are stated to have been conquered by "Andals", but the names of the Houses who did it are not mentioned.

[Free Northman Reborn]

 
The Harrag Hoare you are talking about could not have been chosen in a Kingsmoot, since the Hoares were a hereditary dynasty like the Greyirons before them.
 
It's more likely that the Harrag Hoare mentioned by Aeron is a different, earlier one who supposedly lived during the times of the Kingsmoots. It's implied several times in the Worldbook that the Hoares were an Andal House who wrote themselves into Ironborn history after taking over the Islands

Harras Hoare won the finger dance to become king after the Andals helped to destroy the Greyirons. But he and his immediate descendants were held in much disdain by many of the Ironborn. So it is quite conceivable that this reached a point where a new kingsmoot was held, where Harrag Hoare was chosen as king. Clearly Harrag was viewed as a great king, with none of the baggage of Harras and his immediate descendants. And we know that something had to change the view of the Hoares as they eventually reached their greatest glory under Quored Hoare, and again under Harren Hoare who ruled the Riverlands until Aegon's arrival.

The fact is, it is almost impossible to place the Harrag Hoare that Aeron talked about before the Greyiron dynasty, given his interactions with Theon Stark.

[Ramsay Gimp]

The fact is, it is almost impossible to place the Harrag Hoare that Aeron talked about before the Greyiron dynasty, given his interactions with Theon Stark.

 

Does Aeron mention him in the context of Theon Stark though? If not, he could easily be thinking of a different Harrag than the one that fought the Starks in the worldbook. 

 

That makes more sense to me than the idea that the Hoares were so unpopular and weak that more Kingsmoots were held after Harras took over. If that were the case, how did the Hoares manage to win those Kingsmoots and keep the crown?  (The Drowned Priests may well have tried to stage new Kingsmoots or rebellions. But that's why you get Hoares with names like "priest-killer" or "demon-lover"; they weren't putting up with that shit)

 

We already have an example of an alleged pre-Andal Hoare with Qhored the Cruel. Now I'm of the opinion that this is propaganda, and that the Hoares were just Andal invaders who wrote themselves into ancient Ironborn history but that's a different discussion.

[direpupy]

House Hoare whas held in disdain becouse they married andal women after the iron islands fell to the andals. The where a anchient Ironborn house themselves, and the worldbook states that they provided several kings chosen by the Kingsmoot pryor to the Greyiron's making kingship hereditary.

Harrag is most likely one of those kings.

 

The timeline you propose seems pretty solid to me Free Northman Reborn, i can't see anything that seems of to me so i take my hat of to you.

[Jaak]

wrote themselves into Ironborn history

The problem with this is that Ironborn still disdain writing and reading. Since few rely on written histories, but rather on oral tradition, a written history of Ironborn would simply be ignored and thus have no propaganda effect.

[direpupy]

To get back to the original purpose of this tread, i don't think you can pinpoint when the Andals started leaving Essos.

But assuming the biggest invasion in the North taking place 2000 years ago and the vale already being ruled by the Arryn's at that time, somwhere between 2500 and 3000 years ago seems a good gues for the first Andals crossing to Westeros.

[Ramsay Gimp]

House Hoare whas held in disdain becouse they married andal women after the iron islands fell to the andals. The where a anchient Ironborn house themselves, and the worldbook states that they provided several kings chosen by the Kingsmoot pryor to the Greyiron's making kingship hereditary.

Harrag is most likely one of those kings.

 

The timeline you propose seems pretty solid to me Free Northman Reborn, i can't see anything that seems of to me so i take my hat of to you.

 

But Free Northman actually disagrees with you. He is saying the Harrag Hoare that fought Theon Stark must have come after the Greyiron Kings/Andal invasion of the Iron Islands. And I agree with him; I just don't agree that this is the same Harrag that supposedly won a Kingsmoot according to Aeron

[Ser Arthur Hightower]

 

The Harrag Hoare you are talking about could not have been chosen in a Kingsmoot, since the Hoares were a hereditary dynasty like the Greyirons before them.

 

It's more likely that the Harrag Hoare mentioned by Aeron is a different, earlier one who supposedly lived during the times of the Kingsmoots. It's implied several times in the Worldbook that the Hoares were an Andal House who wrote themselves into Ironborn history after taking over the Islands

:agree:

 

That works really well, the Hoares don't seem to fit into pre-andal Iron Islands like the Greyjoys, Greyirons and so on do, they almost certainly came later.

 

In general I trust Ironborn history the least, it is just too much based on legend.

[direpupy]

I was speaking of his timeline post not his post about Harrag when i complimented him Ramsay Gimp

 

As to House Hoare the get named in the era of the Driftwood kings hel there greatest king Quored is sad by the worldbook to have been a Driftwood king, altough it also says that he could hve been from a different House so i cant fully disagree with the line of thinking of you and Free Northman it is possible.

I just think the get mentioned to many times in the parts before the heraditary kingship to not be an ancient Ironborn House.

[Ramsay Gimp]

The problem with this is that Ironborn still disdain writing and reading. Since few rely on written histories, but rather on oral tradition, a written history of Ironborn would simply be ignored and thus have no propaganda effect.

 

And yet the Greyjoys we see all have a decent knowledge of Ironborn history. Balon mentions Urron Redhand in his first appearance, Victarion thinks of Dagon Greyjoy in his POV, Aeron recalls the histories of the Kingsmoots. The Ironborn are always going on about their ancient heroes. So "official history" matters to them, whether it's written down or not

[Ramsay Gimp]

:agree:

 

That works really well, the Hoares don't seem to fit into pre-andal Iron Islands like the Greyjoys, Greyirons and so on do, they almost certainly came later.

 

In general I trust Ironborn history the least, it is just too much based on legend.

 

Thanks. The Hoares' "Andal Taint," their (occasional) progressiveness, and the claims that Qhored the Cruel was really a Blacktyde or Greyiron all make sense if the Hoares were originally Andals. 

 

Real-life dynasties invented lineages and histories all the time to gain legitimacy. 

[Free Northman Reborn]

DP

[Free Northman Reborn]

Fair enough, so it seems the Harrag Hoare that fought Theon Stark was then a descendant of Harras who won the finger dance, and not the Harrag who was chosen at a Kingsmoot thousands of years earlier.

 

That fits the timeline. The Kingsmoot's dating is then irrelevant to the dating of the Harrag that fought Theon 2000 years ago.

[direpupy]

The Hoare's being a Andal House AND having fought Theon would requer the Iron Islands to have been overun by the Andals Pryor to Argos Sevenstar invading the North from Essos, so that means that the Andals would have had to ignor the North for centuries even though it leis just across the sea and right next to the vale that the had already concuered by Theon's time.

Im sorry but i disagree that this fits the timeline.

[direpupy]

sorry double post