Season 5..Azor Ahai right on schedule?

[RGBeyondAsshai]

Stannis was not a red herring. A red herring is something to fool the reader. Readers were not fooled. He was a plot device, and created some dramatic irony since we knew he was not AA but Mel did not. Dany is the red herring. Jon is the real deal.

Agree with this. Dany can be a hero with her dragons, but she's not the one they're talking about imo

[Valhalla Morghulis]

Stannis was not a red herring. A red herring is something to fool the reader. Readers were not fooled. He was a plot device, and created some dramatic irony since we knew he was not AA but Mel did not. Dany is the red herring. Jon is the real deal.

I agree that Dany has been set up so obviously as the saviour/AA/ WW defeater with her dragons that it seems she must be a red herring and yet just watching season 5 again the idea that because he is a Targaryen, Jon is now the great saviour is difficult as the Targaryens are actually portrayed mostly very negatively as incestuous, cruel, unjust and insane.

If Jon was to be revealed as a Targaryen then viewers would not suddenly think oh he has the royal blood, the blood of destiny, but rather see it as a negative and that he was actually better off as having a noble Stark father.

So this still leaves the way open for Dany to unite with her nephew and defeat the WWs but with her as the leader.

[ummester]

Just because Mel gave up on Stannis doesn't mean he's not Azor Ahai - in fact, in light of Mel's track record, I'd say her giving up is a big indicator that Stannis Satannis may be Azor Ahai.

BTW, I think Azor Ahai is meant to be a destroyer, not a hero, anyway. What kind of hero has to stab their wife in the heart to make a sword better?

[Daemon Blackfyre IV]

I see the show watchers learning all about the prophesy from Sam's story line he probably makes it to old town and starts reading unless of course he spends the whole time with his family.

[Ludo Kressh]

I see the show watchers learning all about the prophesy from Sam's story line he probably makes it to old town and starts reading unless of course he spends the whole time with his family.

Probably, but being in Oldtown, how would anyone else(besides Gilly, who can't read) know about it? A raven? It would be nice for exposition with the audience, but for it to have any real impact, Sam would have to relay this information to relevant parties(i.e. Jon, if he's resurrected, Mel, Davos, etc).

To me, it would make more sense to learn from Mel through her flames or visions and she's close to the people that it would be relevant to...just my thoughts.

[nyser1]

IF Jon and Stannis are not coming back in any shape or form, is there any alternative at this point to Heroine Dany?

[Dayne's Sword]

Dany is and always had been a red herring. The red priestess plot in Essos is essential to impart the AA mythology to the viewer, and the twist will be that AA is Jon in Westeros.

i damn well hope so. book and show dany has been a total disaster when it comes to ruling which is what george wanted. it can be arguedthat Jon was a disaster as LC on account of being assassinated. but then i see that as the watch being a bunch of shortsighted idiots who cant see whats in front of them

[Northbound3.0]

If Jon was to be revealed as a Targaryen then viewers would not suddenly think oh he has the royal blood, the blood of destiny, but rather see it as a negative and that he was actually better off as having a noble Stark father.

So this still leaves the way open for Dany to unite with her nephew and defeat the WWs but with her as the leader.

How is Jon having Targaryen blood, a negative for him...but not for Dany; then having the both of them saving the world? That makes, zero sense.

[dbunting]

I still have no idea who AAR is, or if there really is or will be one. I could however see Jon being raised by the Nights King and leading the army of ice/death. With Dany coming North with her dragons of fire and that battle being the battle for humanity. Maybe we get some insights from Jons mind showing how he is struggling to break free from the Nights King with Bran helping, but who knows.

[Valhalla Morghulis]

How is Jon having Targaryen blood, a negative for him...but not for Dany; then having the both of them saving the world? That makes, zero sense.

What I meant is that Jon would not then suddenly supercede Dany as the saviour/leader. Dany's Targaryen blood does not help her thru ancestry, ie being the Mad King's daughter is not a positive as Tyrion points out, but more thru her being the mother and now rider of Dragons and growing from nothing into becoming a leader and a freer of slaves.

Jon could certainly ally with her but viewers would not expect this new revelation to rise him above her as he has no dragon history and viewers know nothing of Rhaegar other than he is a rapist and kidnapper. If on the other hand the show had openly stated that an AA/Saviour type is promised etc then Jon could have fulfilled that role and superceded Dany, but GRRM has not insisted on this build up in the show so Jon's position is unclear... leaving the way open for DD and GRRM to actually kill him off if they so choose.

[jenerationx]

Well...

What I meant is that Jon would not then suddenly supercede Dany as the saviour/leader. Dany's Targaryen blood does not help her thru ancestry, ie being the Mad King's daughter is not a positive as Tyrion points out, but more thru her being the mother and now rider of Dragons and growing from nothing into becoming a leader and a freer of slaves.

Just because Mad King Aerys was horrible and people hated his rule, doesn't mean that in general smallfolk and high lords didn't respect the Targaryens, their power, and their lineage. There were plenty of Targaryen kings that people liked. And you know who people liked the most, lowborn and highborn alike? Rhaegar. Jon being his son, if that's what the case is, would actually count as a positive. Dany's father is the Mad King; Jon's is Rhaegar Targaryen. You don't think that would make a difference in perception?

Then there's the fact of the other side of his blood -- Stark blood. Nearly everyone has respect for that side. Heck, even being in the Night's Watch, where he's supposed to have no loyalty toward anything but defending the Wall, people are coming to him left and right because he's got Stark blood and they think -- they EXPECT -- him to help them. Jon, as a bastard, also came from "nothing," though he was raised in a great house. He's "freed" the wildlings and helped those in need, *and* is actually battling the ultimate antagonists of the series, rather than mucking around lands half the world away.

Look, Dany has her positives for sure, and I excpect her to make a difference in the coming war. But to say that Jon hasn't done as much as she has, or mean as much as she does, when in fact the entire mythology of the series has made it clear that he is Very Important, is just willful blindness or poor reading/watching for comprehension at this point... O.o

[Fiery Heart]

Does Azor Ahai have to be one man / woman?

[Valhalla Morghulis]

Well...

Just because Mad King Aerys was horrible and people hated his rule, doesn't mean that in general smallfolk and high lords didn't respect the Targaryens, their power, and their lineage. There were plenty of Targaryen kings that people liked. And you know who people liked the most, lowborn and highborn alike? Rhaegar. Jon being his son, if that's what the case is, would actually count as a positive. Dany's father is the Mad King; Jon's is Rhaegar Targaryen. You don't think that would make a difference in perception?

Then there's the fact of the other side of his blood -- Stark blood. Nearly everyone has respect for that side. Heck, even being in the Night's Watch, where he's supposed to have no loyalty toward anything but defending the Wall, people are coming to him left and right because he's got Stark blood and they think -- they EXPECT -- him to help them. Jon, as a bastard, also came from "nothing," though he was raised in a great house. He's "freed" the wildlings and helped those in need, *and* is actually battling the ultimate antagonists of the series, rather than mucking around lands half the world away.

Look, Dany has her positives for sure, and I excpect her to make a difference in the coming war. But to say that Jon hasn't done as much as she has, or mean as much as she does, when in fact the entire mythology of the series has made it clear that he is Very Important, is just willful blindness or poor reading/watching for comprehension at this point... O.o

You are confusing the show and the books. In the books I agree Jon is the more likely hero, but my whole point was that in the show he has not remotely been set up to be. Rhaegar is a prime example of this and has been portrayed as a kidnapper and rapist and the starter of all the wars, so in the show Dany clearly has been set up as the ultimate hero.

As I have said elsewhere the fact that Jon's backstory has not featured more prominently in the shows is very ominous for the return of Jon in them. Maybe GRRM and D and D agreed to kill him off in the show early on and his story will be different in the books.

[Ben H'gahr]

Does Azor Ahai have to be one man / woman?

See the "Three Headed Dragon". I think even GRRM himself mentioned this possibility before.

[tseka]

I see the show watchers learning all about the prophesy from Sam's story line he probably makes it to old town and starts reading unless of course he spends the whole time with his family.

Would make sense that they put so much focus on him in seasons 4/5 if they use him to reveal a bunch of background/history info in season 6.

[Heart of Snow]

Just because Mel gave up on Stannis doesn't mean he's not Azor Ahai - in fact, in light of Mel's track record, I'd say her giving up is a big indicator that Stannis Satannis may be Azor Ahai.

BTW, I think Azor Ahai is meant to be a destroyer, not a hero, anyway. What kind of hero has to stab their wife in the heart to make a sword better?

[Heart of Snow]

You are confusing the show and the books. In the books I agree Jon is the more likely hero, but my whole point was that in the show he has not remotely been set up to be. Rhaegar is a prime example of this and has been portrayed as a kidnapper and rapist and the starter of all the wars, so in the show Dany clearly has been set up as the ultimate hero.

As I have said elsewhere the fact that Jon's backstory has not featured more prominently in the shows is very ominous for the return of Jon in them. Maybe GRRM and D and D agreed to kill him off in the show early on and his story will be different in the books.

[RGBeyondAsshai]

You are confusing the show and the books. In the books I agree Jon is the more likely hero, but my whole point was that in the show he has not remotely been set up to be. Rhaegar is a prime example of this and has been portrayed as a kidnapper and rapist and the starter of all the wars, so in the show Dany clearly has been set up as the ultimate hero.

As I have said elsewhere the fact that Jon's backstory has not featured more prominently in the shows is very ominous for the return of Jon in them. Maybe GRRM and D and D agreed to kill him off in the show early on and his story will be different in the books.

(If I knew how to do the spoiler tag I would do it)

Season 1 started in the crypts with talk about Rhaegar taking Lyanna, then Robert asking about Jon Snow's "mother" Wylla, then Ned saying he'd talk to Jon about his mother the next time he saw him, then Benjen saying they would have a talk when he got back from ranger duty. Also Cat made a huge deal about Jon being a bastard. A HUGE deal compared to all the other families full of bastards in Westeros.

Season 5 had Stannis referring to Jon being the child of a tavern wench by saying it wasn't Ned Stark's way to be unfaithful. LF tells Sansa a story of Harrenhal and Rhaegar choosing to crown Lyanna over his own wife. Barristan tells Dany Rhaegar was more lover than fighter. The Wildlings call Jon King Crow. Aemon mentions something about a Targ alone in the world and then Jon enters the room.

It's not the whole story on the show, no, and not in there nearly as much as it is in the books, but the clues for Jon are definitely in there. And the only person who sets up Rhaegar as a bad guy is Robert in 1 and then Sansa in 5. Each time the facial expressions of the person beside them seems to disagree.

Also as a reminder, D&D got the job based on answering the "Who is Jon Snow's mother" question, which leads me to believe that was a book and show sticking point--which also makes me think he isn't done yet.

[jenerationx]

You are confusing the show and the books. In the books I agree Jon is the more likely hero, but my whole point was that in the show he has not remotely been set up to be. Rhaegar is a prime example of this and has been portrayed as a kidnapper and rapist and the starter of all the wars, so in the show Dany clearly has been set up as the ultimate hero.

As I have said elsewhere the fact that Jon's backstory has not featured more prominently in the shows is very ominous for the return of Jon in them. Maybe GRRM and D and D agreed to kill him off in the show early on and his story will be different in the books.

I don't agree with this. I think they have shown all that they dare to show without giving it all away. D&D have said numerous times that you can be vague in a book. You can say Lyanna died in a "bed of blood" -- share that information -- without actually giving any answers. That is almost impossible to do on TV. You'd have to show where the blood was coming from, or at least where it even is. On her hands? Her face? Her legs? Whatever you choose, you're telling the viewer something. They can't afford to do that. And that's only one example.

You can't plant seeds about Jon's backstory in any way that obviously relates to him, because on a show, that wouldn't be a hint, it would be a dead giveaway. They've done all they can to perpetuate the mystery -- including doing zero flashback sequences as far as Rhaegar and Lyanna go, because on TV, you'd see for certain whether it was kidnapping or love. In the books, it can be unconfirmed. You don't have that luxury with TV.

If Jon meant nothing, if he was just going to be killed off on the TV series instead of the books, there would be zero reason to bring up all the backstory they did this season. They still couldn't actually do any flashbacks, so instead they did some awkward exposition scenes with people talking about Rhaegar and Lyanna -- why? As a general rule, long passages of exposition are to be avoided whenever possible on TV. Instead, they made sure to put that stuff in. What is the point of that, if their son is dead, never to return?

If you're not happy with narrative reasons, then how about Hollywood machine reasons? This Vanity Fair article has come up with a few more that I haven't seen floating around as much as others: http://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2015/06/jon-snow-alive-game-of-thrones-comic-con

"...the language Weiss used to describe Jon Snow, “Dead is dead,” is a very familiar phrase to book readers. “Dead is dead” appears on the very first page of the very first book of A Song of Ice and Fire in reference to, you guessed it, some wildlings who then come back to life. It could be Weiss messing with our heads, or it could be a very clever hint."

There's a casting call for: "A man in his thirties or forties who is a great swordsman and a paragon of knighthood. He carries a hugely famous sword on his back. The show is seeking a very impressive swordsman for the role—the best in Europe, for a week of filming fight scenes for a season 6 role. His ethnicity/race isn’t specified, unlike many other roles."

VF speculates that "Most book readers have concluded this is a call for a character named Arthur Dayne, referred to in the books as “Sword of the Morning” because of his famous ancestral blade... The only good reason to show Arthur Dayne in flashback at this point is if Game of Thrones was going to do the evocative Tower of Joy plot from the books... most believe that the story of the Tower of Joy is the story of Jon Snow’s birth."

There's also this: "The Final Beautiful Death Poster: Fans of the series likely already know about the Game of Thrones “Beautiful Death” artwork commissioned by HBO from digital marketing agency 360i and artist Robert Ball. Ball has created a stunning visual tableau for each episode of the series and you can see them all collected here. The official Web site describes the “Beautiful Death” posters as, “The official episode-by-episode guide to the most iconic deaths in the realm.” So why, then, is Stannis Baratheon’s death the one featured in the Season 5 finale poster? Shouldn’t the honor of “most iconic death” belong to Lord Snow? Very curious."

So yeah... I disagree with the idea that because they haven't been more obvious with Jon's backstory, it's an indication of his being gone forever. Because of the way TV works, it's the only way they CAN do it and still maintain any sort of suspense/surprise.

[~DarkHorse~]

To be honest, I don't see Dany as Azor Ahai.

During the first Long Night the Targaryens and dragons were not involved. They have no history or connection with the Others and possibly the original Azor Ahai like the Starks (Bran the builder, also Night's King on the show?) and possibly House Dayne through Dawn (original Lightbringer?). Also, the casting for Arthur Dayne in season 6 specifically notes his special sword, not just his skills. Could it show up again at some point?

Dany is a pure Targaryen and her lightbringer would be the dragons. However, the requirement for AA is-

"In this dread hour a warrior shall draw from the fire a burning sword. And that sword shall be Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes, and he who clasps it shall be Azor Ahai come again, and the darkness shall flee before him."

Then look at Jon's dream-

" Jon was armored in black ice, but his blade burned red in his fist. As the dead men reached the top of the Wall he sent them down to die again."

It fits the description perfectly.

Personally, I think Dany is linked to the Targaryen prophecy that originates before the Doom. She is the Prince that was Promised because she has brought dragons back into the world (and she will restore the Targayen name after their downfall) and I think she (and the dragons) will play her part in the Long Night. However, I think House Stark (blood of the first men) through Jon and Bran will play just as important roles as the dragons. Jon is AA reborn, Dany is tptwp and Tyrion or Bran are the third head and together they make up the three headed dragon.

I think the show will love the idea of a warrior up against the White Walkers, rather than just dragons. The show has already been setting Jon up as a warrior, giving him numerous fight scenes. Also, the 'stare off' between the Night's King and Jon was very telling for me. I think it foreshadows them having a rivalry (two leaders on different sides) and an eventual duel between them.