Charleston shooting political thread 2: guns, God, and Confederate values

[Shryke]

I hold a special relevance for the Stars and Stripes and served under it in this country's military. I even took a bullet at one point while doing so.

The simple truth of the matter is that some people very well could look at the US. flag and think that it stands for slavery, racism, bigotry, and genocide because the US has historically been affiliated with all of it. The actual founding document of this country was written to include the legalization of slavery. I however, do not think of those things when I look at the flag, I think of liberty, independence, and democracy.

The Stars and Bars has been viewed in very similar light by people as well. When I was a child, I used to go to an amusement park named Six Flags Over Texas. Most of you guys know these parks just as Six Flags now. It was named Six Flags because there were the flags of six sovereign nations that flew over this state. France, Spain, Mexico, Texas, The Confederacy, and The United States. All of these flags are stained with the institution of slavery, I am telling you, that when the vast majority of people here saw any of these flags, racism was not the first thing that they thought about. I also think it is fair to assume that in the 70's and 80's, most people didn't watch Dukes of Hazzard and longingly hope for slavery to come back when the General Lee drove by.

The simple fact of the matter is that for a significant portion of the population, the Stars and Bars has been associated with racism and bigotry though, and for that reason alone, I support taking them down, and have never been one to brandish one myself. I will however vehemently argue that everyone using this symbol was only doing so to promote slavery.

Then what else was it for?

Like, we've already had this discussion before. The difference between the US flag and the Confederate flag is that the US flag stands for alot of things. The Confederate flag, whichever one you choose, only stands for slavery. That's all the state it existed to symbolize was about.

I believe that both the North and South were culpable for the Civil War, and the idea that one side of this conflict was somehow the "good" guys is dangerous.

Oh, do tell. How was the North culpable? What makes the not slavery side at the very least the less-bad guys?

[The Fallen]

I just found out that Shryke lives in Canada. So while it is perfectly fine for him to comment on all things American but since he doesn't live in America his points and posts don't matter at all.

What's sad is that Shryke knows more about 'murica than most 'muricans. And you can count me in that group.

[eyenon15]

Oh, do tell. How was the North culpable? What makes the not slavery side at the very least the less-bad guys?

Because its difficult enough to evaluate the superiority of a person when you have mountains of information.

It's pretty impossible to judge based on only one belief.

If I'm anti slavery but pro child molestation then I'm not a much better person than a pro slavery/anti child molestation guy.

And let's not pretend every person in a Union or Confederate uniform were fighting for the cause. There are many reasons that men fight in wars.

At most you could say that anyone on the side of the Union had a hand in doing something great but that by no means is proof that they are better people simply for living in the North and/or being employed by the Union.

[IamMe90]

Because its difficult enough to evaluate the superiority of a person when you have mountains of information.

It's pretty impossible to judge based on only one belief.

If I'm anti slavery but pro child molestation then I'm not a much better person than a pro slavery/anti child molestation guy.

And let's not pretend every person in a Union or Confederate uniform were fighting for the cause. There are many reasons that men fight in wars.

At most you could say that anyone on the side of the Union had a hand in doing something great but that by no means is proof that they are better people simply for living in the North and/or being employed by the Union.

Everything you just said is about individual people. I'm pretty sure we're talking about nations and states? No one is making a moral comparison of each individual person in the Union versus every person in the Confederacy; they're making a moral comparison of nations (using the term "nation" to loosely describe the Confederacy). The determinant for evaluating the morality of two nations is naturally different from that of two persons.

[Cold Hands warm heart]

Maybe what is off center in this world is the value given to symbols. Investing such worth to a flag without the ability to extend the same worth to a person is sad. I face a flag at sporting events as I sing the anthem. But I support my family, neighbor fellow citizen. Every, EVERY country has it's share of atrocities and dark secrets. And many have also done Great things. Is it just the good things I am supporting when I stand with my country's flag? In Canada we have destroyed the native culture, I will never salute that. I will leave those in other country's to think on the darkness in they're pasts. Do you salute only part of your flag? Or just accept the good with the bad?

I was going to start with the Cross when I thought on symbols but there is no point. We put such emotion into symbols, I think because it's safe.

We are putting so much energy into the hate of the Rebel flag it's like it's being reborn. Reading up on it I found it interesting that the flag we all know today was born on the battle field after the war was going for a year. It used to be whats called the stars and bars but it looked to much like the North's flag, causing too much confusion on the field of battle.

[eyenon15]

Everything you just said is about individual people. I'm pretty sure we're talking about nations and states? No one is making a moral comparison of each individual person in the Union versus every person in the Confederacy; they're making a moral comparison of nations (using the term "nation" to loosely describe the Confederacy). The determinant for evaluating the morality of two nations is naturally different from that of two persons.

"Good guys" and "Bad guys" isn't that best way to phrase a comparison between the two nations.

Pretty weak thing to do any sort of bragging about though. In context it's just saying "This part of the map stopped having slaves a bit sooner than this other part so that part of the map is and still remains "good guys" while this other part of the map are the "bad guys"

It's really matter of shitty guys vs slightly less shitty guys, no one should really be bragging all that much about it like it means the South is still the Mecca of all racism while ignoring the sick and ugly racism that's been in all parts of the country.

[Gramsci]

I just found out that Shryke lives in Canada. So while it is perfectly fine for him to comment on all things American but since he doesn't live in America his points and posts don't matter at all.

Wait... what? Are you out of your mind!?! So a person's place of residence is the greatest factor in determining the capacity for reasonable thought?

Most Americans (including you, more than likely) cannot name all of the presidents in American history. Nor could they explain the impact of a court case like US vs. EC Knight. But, by being an American, their observations suddenly matter more than those of a more informed Canuck?

Where is American going... Can a German, Swede, Italian, Russian, Hungarian, Japanese, Australian, or Dutch person tell me? Because I think my faith in popular American logic is waning.

[Hayyoth]

Wait... what? Are you out of your mind!?! So a person's place of residence is the greatest factor in determining the capacity for reasonable thought?

Most Americans (including you, more than likely) cannot name all of the presidents in American history. Nor could they explain the impact of a court case like US vs. EC Knight. But, by being an American, their observations suddenly matter more than a more informed Canuck?

Where is American going... Can a German, Swede, Italian, Russian, Hungarian, Japanese, Australian, or Dutch person tell me? Because I think my faith in popular American logic is waning.

Don't know about that, I was called out twice on this thread for commenting on other countries. I don't see anything wrong with foreigners commenting on American domestic politics but they shouldn't get all prissy when vice versa.

[Arakan]

Coming back to the present, someone (I think The Fallen was it) said that America needs somekind of soul-searching like the Germans had done.

I think this is true but it seems that the Republicans are the biggest obstacle to have such thing. Which is similar to the situation in Germany where it had been the Conservative parties which slowed down the process of "soul-searching" as much as they could, back in the 1950s and 1960s.

Basically it's the same pattern all around the world (look at France for instance at the stance towards the Colonial Wars). There is always a reason why one shouldnt dig too deep. In the case of Germany it was "communists around the corner".

[Summah]

I've said there needs to be a reckoning in previous threads, maybe this one.

[HexMachina]

Don't know about that, I was called out twice on this thread for commenting on other countries. I don't see anything wrong with foreigners commenting on American domestic politics but they shouldn't get all prissy when vice versa.

Wasn't that more about the fact that what you were saying was just wrong?

[The guy from the Vale]

Wasn't that more about the fact that what you were saying was just wrong?

Yes. Yes it was.