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Revisiting the assassination attempt to Bran


Mithras

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No, I don't think it was bad writing. I kinda liked how in the end it was a decision made by a completely unrelated character that made the Stark even more suspicious towards the Lannisters. They were right, but for the wrong reason. It reminds me of Eco's Name of the Rose, where some of the mysterious deaths seemed part of a grand scheme but ultimately weren't.


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It seems like it could be an awkward retcon, like he originally was going to have it be someone else possibly, like LF organizing it to frame the Lannisters. Otherwise, it's hard to say. It would have to be someone stupid or trying to frame the Lannisters to use such a high profile weapon. Joff was definitely stupid.

This. I'm not a fan of that reveal, and I sure hope future ones are not like this.

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I find it near impossible to believe he could have organized it.I mean Joff would have to be stupid enough to use a super unique weapon yet smart enough to find an assassin on his first try?Not only an assassin but one willing to kill the son of the warden of the north in his own home?Joff is never ever shown to be a good judge of character so it's impossible for him to find an assassin as hes a spoiled brat who knows nothing about people below him.

I find it more believable that LF hired the assassin and had him go with the royal party so that it would further push the two houses into conflict.

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Remind me - DO we know that it was Joffrey, or is it that Tyrion and Jaime think that is?

I think GRRM either confirmed it or heavily implied it.If so then he wrote Joffs character wrong as Joff never does anything subtle.I mean damn he sent the gold cloaks to murder Bobbys Bastards.He also sent....Mandon Moore? To kill Tyrion at the Blackwater.
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I think GRRM either confirmed it or heavily implied it.If so then he wrote Joffs character wrong as Joff never does anything subtle.I mean damn he sent the gold cloaks to murder Bobbys Bastards.He also sent....Mandon Moore? To kill Tyrion at the Blackwater.

So, would you call this attempt subtle? I think it's actually in line with his character to send someone else to do it and make a mess of it.

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So, would you call this attempt subtle? I think it's actually in line with his character to send someone else to do it and make a mess of it.

He hired an assassin by randomly picking him out of hundreds of people.That requires either skill or luck.

So either Joff didn't hire him or an assassin Deus Ex Machinaed himself in front of Joff wearing an "I'm an assassin shirt"

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I don't think we've gotten the full explanation in all of this. I don't think Joffrey is stupid enough to think that the murder of is father's best friend's son would please Robert. And how was Robert ever to find out that it was Joffrey? If Joffrey just blurts it out one day, do you think Robert would believe it, or would he just ignore it like the Targaryen children?



And since there is little to no interaction between Robert and Joffrey, there is no indication at all that Joffrey cared one whit what Robert thought, unlike his relationship with his mother.



My suspicion is that before they left King's Landing, Littlefinger filled Joffrey's head about the threat that House Stark poses to House Lannister and that the best thing would be some kind of tragedy that marred Ned's appointment as hand. Then, with Bran crippled, Joffrey just took the opportunity and sent in the assassin.


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He hired an assassin by randomly picking him out of hundreds of people.That requires either skill or luck.

So either Joff didn't hire him or an assassin Deus Ex Machinaed himself in front of Joff wearing an "I'm an assassin shirt"

It's not like he hired a Faceless Man, he just had to pick one of the servants who came north with them, give him the dagger and a few gold dragons and tell him to off Bran. If that guy had been a skilled assassin, Bran would likely be dead, but he was kind of an idiot, who had probably never done anything like that, so Joffrey portrayed neither skill nor luck in his choice.

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I think GRRM either confirmed it or heavily implied it.If so then he wrote Joffs character wrong as Joff never does anything subtle.I mean damn he sent the gold cloaks to murder Bobbys Bastards.He also sent....Mandon Moore? To kill Tyrion at the Blackwater.

Didn't Cersei send the Gold Cloaks for the bastards? I thought Joffrey only did it in the show and Cersei did it in the books. For some reason I remember a line where Cersei states Joffrey did not even know of the other bastards. Correct me if I am wrong though.

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It's not like he hired a Faceless Man, he just had to pick one of the servants who came north with them, give him the dagger and a few gold dragons and tell him to off Bran. If that guy had been a skilled assassin, Bran would likely be dead, but he was kind of an idiot, who had probably never done anything like that, so Joffrey portrayed neither skill nor luck in his choice.

I was under this impression too. I thought Catelyn/Theon/Robb/Luwin came to the agreement that he wasn't a skilled assassin, just some random poor person that was sort of dimwitted and jumped at the opportunity of money. He didn't really think it all through because Joffrey probably convinced him that it was no big deal and no one would be in the room.

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I think GRRM either confirmed it or heavily implied it.If so then he wrote Joffs character wrong as Joff never does anything subtle.I mean damn he sent the gold cloaks to murder Bobbys Bastards.He also sent....Mandon Moore? To kill Tyrion at the Blackwater.

Thanks. I was actually thinking specifically of Moore at Blackwater when I asked. That would be two incidents of attempted assassinations where we don't know who was behind them, although some of the characters think they've solved it. I wouldn't be surprised if we found out Littlefinger or somebody else was carefully manipulating this sort of stuff throughout the books.

But, if you're right that GRRM confirmed it, then I guess not.

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Of course there is a mystery. Petry said the blade belonged to him. Petyr wanted to create chaos and bleed the great powers so that he or the powers he supports may ascend.

Petyr could suggest to Joffrey to have the act done, he would be impressed by shiny Valyrian swords. Joffrey never says no to a killing.

The biggest question is who Petyr works for. It is probably not just himself.

This would mean that Littlefinger knew Bran would catch Cersei and Jaime in the middle of the whole 'brown chicken brown cow' scene (Say it fast, it'll make you giggle). Littlefinger could not have possibly known that was going to happen

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I think GRRM either confirmed it or heavily implied it.If so then he wrote Joffs character wrong as Joff never does anything subtle.I mean damn he sent the gold cloaks to murder Bobbys Bastards.He also sent....Mandon Moore? To kill Tyrion at the Blackwater.

I'd like to see these SSMs please. If they are like all the rest, it means that people read into them what they want even though the actual language is fuzzy.

I'm particularly interested in any confirmation that Joffrey sent Mandon Moore to kill Tyrion. Mandon Moore comes from the Vale and came to KL with Jon Arryn, so that provides a connection to Littlefinger. I don't recall any interaction between Joffrey and Ser Mandon at all, but I will be convinced if someone can show me an SSM that says "Joffrey sent Mandon Moore to kill Tyrion on the Blackwater."

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Thanks. I was actually thinking specifically of Moore at Blackwater when I asked. That would be two incidents of attempted assassinations where we don't know who was behind them, although some of the characters think they've solved it. I wouldn't be surprised if we found out Littlefinger or somebody else was carefully manipulating this sort of stuff throughout the books.

But, if you're right that GRRM confirmed it, then I guess not.

I could've sworn after the battle he straight up asks Cersei if she sent him and she says no.And the Kingsguard only listen to the royal family so its implied that Joff sent him.I could be completely wrong about this though.
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I could've sworn after the battle he straight up asks Cersei if she sent him and she says no.And the Kingsguard only listen to the royal family so its implied that Joff sent him.I could be completely wrong about this though.

I am actually fairly certain Tyrion thinks it is Cersei that sends Mandon Moore but he doesn't ever ask her. It is the people on the forums here that have done some investigation and come up with ideas that it could have been Joffrey based on the fact that when we get Cersei's POV in AFFC, she never specifically thinks about sending Mandon Moore to kill Tyrion. Not sure if anything has ever been confirmed by GRRM though.

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I am actually fairly certain Tyrion thinks it is Cersei that sends Mandon Moore but he doesn't ever ask her. It is the people on the forums here that have done some investigation and come up with ideas that it could have been Joffrey based on the fact that when we get Cersei's POV in AFFC, she never specifically thinks about sending Mandon Moore to kill Tyrion. Not sure if anything has ever been confirmed by GRRM though.

Yea I can't recall.I thought there was a conversation between Tyrion and Cersei.I could be remembering something from the show though.
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Of course there is a mystery. Petry said the blade belonged to him. Petyr wanted to create chaos and bleed the great powers so that he or the powers he supports may ascend.

Petyr could suggest to Joffrey to have the act done, he would be impressed by shiny Valyrian swords. Joffrey never says no to a killing.

The biggest question is who Petyr works for. It is probably not just himself.

Petyr wasn't even at Winterfell. And had no way of knowing Bran had caught Jaime and Cersei and been crippled.

I find it near impossible to believe he could have organized it.I mean Joff would have to be stupid enough to use a super unique weapon yet smart enough to find an assassin on his first try?Not only an assassin but one willing to kill the son of the warden of the north in his own home?Joff is never ever shown to be a good judge of character so it's impossible for him to find an assassin as hes a spoiled brat who knows nothing about people below him.

I find it more believable that LF hired the assassin and had him go with the royal party so that it would further push the two houses into conflict.

He didn't hire an assassin though. He hired some random schmuck and gave him a knife. That's why it's so clumsy. It doesn't take much intelligence, or even skill to do this.
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I'd like to see these SSMs please. If they are like all the rest, it means that people read into them what they want even though the actual language is fuzzy.

I'm particularly interested in any confirmation that Joffrey sent Mandon Moore to kill Tyrion. Mandon Moore comes from the Vale and came to KL with Jon Arryn, so that provides a connection to Littlefinger. I don't recall any interaction between Joffrey and Ser Mandon at all, but I will be convinced if someone can show me an SSM that says "Joffrey sent Mandon Moore to kill Tyrion on the Blackwater."

I will tell you that ASOS will resolve the question of Bran and the dagger, and also that of Jon Arryn's killer. Some other questions will =not= be resolved... and hopefully I will give you a few new puzzles to worry at.

Source: http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Re_Congratulations if you say this is ambiguous then there is no point having further discussion with you

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