Rant and Rave: Dorne Postmortem (Book Spoilers )

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

I agree with those who suggested cutting Ellaria completely in the first place and having Arianne go with Oberyn to KL. Then we have the lead-in to Arianne as the focal point in Dorne season 5.

I would maybe suggest having Quentyn turn up at Meereen so they could have the Doran/Arianne friction at the heart of the Dornish story. We wouldn't need to see his journey there. The reveal could happen about Doran's plan for Quentyn and then he could just turn up in Dany's story.

This would eliminate all the brothel scenes and D&D would never go for that

[Crixus]

From the last thread:

Re last thread:

Veltigar, Le Cygne and Annara Snow: you all replied to my comment on Spartacus vs GOT, so I wanted to say a big HEY to you lot! It's such a relief to find like-minded souls on such topics.

I am almost tempted to start a Spartacus vs GoT thread! That would be... interesting.

Anyway, I wanted to share my complete agreement on all your points. It's ironic how Spartacus handled sensitive topics like slavery, gender and rape so well, given its 'trash' image among non-watchers. Nudity was equal opportunity (hello, Manu Bennett! :P), rape wasn't there for titillation but to show the extent of exploitation of female and male slaves alike (the Lucretia/Crixus storyline was brilliantly depicted), and the devastating impact it has on the victim (Naevia). Sex, when consensual, was depicted as free, intense, sensual and above all, FUN (see Crixus/Naevia, Gannicus/anyone). Gay and bisexual couples were treated exactly like straight ones (Agron/Nasir, Saxa). Relationships were layered and complex, as in real life (Lucretia and Batiatus is the best example of such).

Throw in some great writing, some incredibly innovative dialogue (Shakespeare with more swearing!) and some gorgeous, talented actors, and what you have is something unique, vastly underrated, and undoubtedly superior to GoT. IMO.

If only Steven S De Knight and similarly gifted people had chosen to work on GoT! It would have been a hell of a show.

It's even funnier to consider that shows generally dismissed as being 'for kids', like Buffy and Angel, have such maturity, character depth and consistency within. Again, no comparison to GoT. I should know; I've been devouring re-watching both of late.

All this to say,these stellar shows had no source material (not counting the Buffy or Spartacus movie for obvious reasons) and they did so well. And GoT had the most incredible source material, only to come up with this?

Sigh. I urge everyone here to watch Spartacus!

[protar]

Dorne this season....my god it was 10 weeks of craughing.

While I disagree vehemently with cutting Arianne, I can see D+D's line of thought I think. The Sandsnakes hook up with preexisting characters like KL. Arianne only hooks up with Aegon who they're cutting...for whatever reason. So they develop the Sandsnakes instead. If they had managed to pull off some really good television out of that, I might have been able to come to terms with Arianne being gone. But this...it's sooooo awful. How is it that in just a few lines Martin manages to give the Sandsnakes more character than D+D did in 10 weeks? How is it he managed to give more character to Trystane who never appeared on page? Where is my Arianne!?

[Eurybia]

I just don't understand any of their choices.

I get that they wanted to introduce Dorne via a character we already knew. Why not introduce Arianne last season instead of Ellaria, then show us Dorne through her eyes? Seeing her uncle die would certainly give motive for revenge, their favorite theme. Oh, that would cut down on brothel time. Well, okay, fine then.

Another thing that gets me is Myrcella. So they had a whole scene ostensibly about a slow-acting poison that can be kicked into high gear when your blood really gets pumping. So when a character is poisoned at the end of the storyline and is given some potentially damaging, life-changing information, her reaction isn't to freak out about the fact that she's living a lie, that she really is a bastard born of incest and that endangers her whole future? A freak-out that might kickstart the poison and kill her quickly? I mean, that would have at least made that jail scene into foreshadowing of something important. No, I guess Ellaria is just dumb enough to give Myrcella poison that will kill her while the boat is still close enough to turn around easily.

Was the point of introducing the Snakes just to show badass chicks? Will we revisit any of these characters? I hope not, and that makes me SO SAD because I like Book!Dorne.

And I will never be over cutting "Fire and Blood".

[Lord Freypie]

The only way to make their ending vaguely logical would be to reveal that not only Doran but also Trystane were aware of the poisoning. Trystane could very well have kissed Myrcella on the boat it was just completely silly to poison the lips of the prince gf, even imagining they trusted the Lannisters not to execute him for revenge. Or to reveal that Ellaria and the SS were plotting a coup, involving the deaths of both Doran and Trystane (but without any other non bastard Martell to support, it would be rather strange).

Even the only thing that finally happens in this arc was completely cheesy.

[Good Guy Garlan]

How is it he managed to give more character to Trystane who never appeared on page?

This is so true and scary. Like, how the fuck is this even possible?

[Dolorous Gabe]

This would eliminate all the brothel scenes and D&D would never go for that

Oh I realise that much.

I agree with what Good Guy Garlan said about how there's nothing likeable about any of the Dornish protagonists and there's nothing to root for, but that's because they're not protagonists in D&D's vision of Dorne, the Lannisters are. I guess Doran is supposed to be likeable in a way but he did literally nothing. Siddig was utterly wasted.

I'm not convinced we'll even see Dorne again. What would be the point? Dorne has no plan as such so a war with the Lannisters would be a waste of precious screen-time, especially since Dany's story is split up with her being with the Dothraki, Jorah and Daario searching for her, and Tyrion ruling Meereen (sorry, that should say Saint Tyrion's story being split up).

[Lord Freypie]

I'm not sure. I don't think they would have spent this time introducing the Dornish and not killed them if they weren't to be important.

And about a return to Dorne the setting, I guess we'll at least see the aftermath when Doran learns what happened, and either reveal he gave the order (with finally their version of the fire and blood twist) either punish Ellaria (or is her next victim when the SS organize a coup but they'd had introduced a non bastard Martell other than his son if it was their plan I think).

[Ser Quork]

What really kills me about Dorne is the stuff that was left out. I mostly hated Dorne (and the Sandsnakes in particular) in the books, but within Dorne there were 2 awesome things- The whole Queenmaker plot (and the conclusion to it with Areo/Oakheart and Dorkstar/Myrcella) and Doran's "Fire and Blood" speech. In particular, I'd think long-term Dorne's purpose in AFFC/ADWD is to put the Sandsnakes in the right places in King's Landing and establish them as threats and likewise to set up Arrianne/Quentyn and Dorne's play at the Throne.

For a show that claims it doesn't have enough time to put in a lot of good stuff, but goes to Dorne anyway...And doesn't do any of the above-mentioned set-up, it really boggles the mind.

When you factor in as well how it has completely short-changed Jaime's character development (one of the best parts of AFFC), I mean, there really aren't enough Rants and Raves to cover it all.

All of this is simply from an adaptation standpoint, which doesn't even begin to go into the actual execution of what we saw on our screens. I mean, I don't think there was one remotely redeeming scene or moment that was produced.

You could have cut every single Dorne scene out and had Myrcella be killed off-screen and you'd be in the EXACT same spot they are in to end this season. Besides for Bronn/Tyene, there was absolutely no development at all of any other plot that took place in Dorne in an entire season. It's remarkable really.

:agree:

That dynamic would've been easy to include, even without Arianne. Like:

Step 1) Make Ellaria less of a horribly evil and detestable character by making her want to crown Myrcella instead of cutting her to pieces. That way people might root for her plan to succeed and not the other way around.

Step 2) As soon as Ellaria leaves Doran (in their first scene in episode 2? 3? I don't remember, but whatever), have Doran order Hotah to watch her and the Sand Snakes closely and to arrest them if necessary, and keep the line about Tywin having a friend in King's Landing. That makes people root against Doran.

Step 3) Have Doran deliver his speech in episode 9 to Ellaria. Yay, now we're Team Doran!

Even within D&D's framework, they could've done this way better

Absolutely, that would have worked.

I still have seen very little, just a clip of the bad pussy moment and the handkerchief fail and Prom Barbie dying. I wonder, should I watch, just to mock the Sand Snakes?

It's well worth the mockery. Really, TV at its worst.

[Chebyshov]

Dorne this season....my god it was 10 weeks of craughing.

While I disagree vehemently with cutting Arianne, I can see D+D's line of thought I think. The Sandsnakes hook up with preexisting characters like KL. Arianne only hooks up with Aegon who they're cutting...for whatever reason. So they develop the Sandsnakes instead. If they had managed to pull off some really good television out of that, I might have been able to come to terms with Arianne being gone. But this...it's sooooo awful. How is it that in just a few lines Martin manages to give the Sandsnakes more character than D+D did in 10 weeks? How is it he managed to give more character to Trystane who never appeared on page? Where is my Arianne!?

That was my initial thought too, but then they send Trys on to King's Landing instead of Nym (which is stupid for multiple reasons). I really don't think we can view their adaptational choices as having a basis in logic at this point.

I think you know how I feel about Book!Dorne at this point.

...at its essence, the story is a family tragedy. It’s about two people who love each other, but misunderstand each other because of a character failing that they both share. The possible war with the Lannisters that looms over Dorne is not as important as the “war” in Arianne’s mind as she tries to secure not only her political birthright, but also her personal “birthright” to her father’s trust and love. (x)

I guess I see why that's not "cinematic." But nothing will ever justify what we got, especially given the fact that Larry really could have just asked Doran for Myrcella and it would have ended there.

Love that they underplay his handicap too. Of course he can hold his own against Obara, that warrior-monk!

When you think about the sum-total of the plot, it really is fitting that Dorne was introduced to us via an ass-birthmark.

[~DarkHorse~]

Actually, the most isulting thing about Dorne was that we got this rather than Jaime in the Riverlands. However, I guess seeing Jaime team up with the Freys would mess up with idea that the Lannisters are just misunderstood good guys.

[TepidHands]

Did anyone else think Natalie Dormer was literally acting her age this season; it seemed jarring, like she'd gone from early 20s to early 30s overnight (she's 33). I dunno, it's down on my list of bitches about season 5, but I rewatched "High sparrow" last night and it struck me.

[R4W13Y]

I think if Season 1 had been on a par with Season 5 GoT would've been cancelled at the end of the season.

Oh absolutely. The only reason we have so many people apologizing for this season (which is just...ridiculous) is because they've been so invested since before the show was this bad. If this was the first season, it would have been cancelled and never spoken of again except for as "that time these guys failed at adapting ASOIAF".

As for Dorne...I said it in the last thread, but it was an entire plot to service the Lannisters: Carol, Myrcella, and Larry. Bronn too, as a Lannister lackey. And that I will never forgive.

[Dolorous Gabe]

I'm not sure. I don't think they would have spent this time introducing the Dornish and not killed them if they weren't to be important.

And about a return to Dorne the setting, I guess we'll at least see the aftermath when Doran learns what happened, and either reveal he gave the order (with finally their version of the fire and blood twist) either punish Ellaria (or is her next victim when the SS organize a coup but they'd had introduced a non bastard Martell other than his son if it was their plan I think).

I reckon at most we will see Dorne about as much as we've seen the Iron Islands in the last couple of seasons.

I think they spent time introducing a version of Dorne simply because Myrcella was there and so they felt they couldn't avoid it. It's all about the Lannisters really. What purpose does it serve now?

I mean, from what the show runners have allegedly said Cersei is going to blame Tyrion for what happened to Myrcella. Is she even going to give a thought to vengeance on Dorne? And what really would be the point of that in the context of the story?

[protar]

That was my initial thought too, but then they send Trys on to King's Landing instead of Nym (which is stupid for multiple reasons). I really don't think we can view their adaptational choices as having a basis in logic at this point.

I think you know how I feel about Book!Dorne at this point.

...at its essence, the story is a family tragedy. It’s about two people who love each other, but misunderstand each other because of a character failing that they both share. The possible war with the Lannisters that looms over Dorne is not as important as the “war” in Arianne’s mind as she tries to secure not only her political birthright, but also her personal “birthright” to her father’s trust and love. (x)

I guess I see why that's not "cinematic." But nothing will ever justify what we got, especially given the fact that Larry really could have just asked Doran for Myrcella and it would have ended there.

Love that they underplay his handicap too. Of course he can hold his own against Obara, that warrior-monk!

When you think about the sum-total of the plot, it really is fitting that Dorne was introduced to us via an ass-birthmark.

I still kind of suspect Tyene will sneak into Kings Landing. Maybe Nym takes Sarella's place? Is she really just there to fill out the numbers? Maybe.

[AlpenglowMemories]

I wonder if Dorne might have been...somewhat more forgiveable had the other storylines not been so mediocre. There's been weak plots before in the show (Theon's torture, Craster's Keep) but I don't think any of the previous four seasons were ever quite so poorly handed as this overall.

Then again, even if the other elements did cross into some kind of acceptable quality, it can't exactly make amends for just how misguided the choices made for Dorne were. Even aesthetically the show didn't work here: they hired some fabulous locations in Spain, which they proceeded to show as minimally as possible, with the tackiest writing possible. There's such a lack of charm, sensuality and power with these scenes.

Then we have the Dornish desert...which is covered with grass. And overseen by cloudy looking skies. We're introduced to none of the Dornish population, making it seem like Dorne is populated by one house, and the most basic visual elements - orange trees, children, hot climate - are missed out. Okay, yeah, I don't think better quality elsewhere would have helped this at all.

[chandl34]

I thought Dorne was awesome because D&D are doing the best they can and they have limited time and resources and Martin told them the ending and other adaptations are way worse and AFFC was boring. Ergo, Dorne was good.

Maybe there will be a chapter on bad pussy in WoW.

[Richard Writhen]

Double post. Annoying...

[Richard Writhen]

Arianne was such an awesome character too. If she could have been incorporated then they should have done so IMO...

Guess she wasn't bad pussy enough...

[WSmith84]

How is it he managed to give more character to Trystane who never appeared on page?

That's actually frightening. I didn't actually realise while watching, but it's so true.