How Can Anyone Like Samwell Tarly?

[Julia H.]

It is not as simple as turning up and becoming a Maester just as its not as easy as turning up at a University and getting a doctorate. It would take years, Sam may never actually get enough chains to become a Maester.

The law would say it's Sams Lordship and someone like Bronn could manipulate it so he gets it so they can start living if his money. There are plently of threats to a weak Lord.

Or even other neighbouring Lords or even Tarly vassals would support Sam over his younger brother knowing he is a weaker leader and less likely to stand up to them.

Well, if Dickon is truly his father's son, we don't really have to worry that he would lose his lordship to Sam. Besides, Sam would have announced he had forsaken all claim. Sam is not a warrior, but he is not stupid. He does not want to be a lord and he would know when he is manipulated.

But perhaps that was Tarly's reason - not the one actually mentioned in the book, but perhaps. Then on the basis of the same logic, all non-heirs could be sent to the Wall, but second sons definitely. Otherwise what would prevent them from getting their older brothers killed and taking their places? I'm pretty sure a more militant, Randyll-like brother could be more dangerous in this respect (even if not first-born). I'm surprised the Wall is not full of 15-year-old noble second sons.

How do you think Leo Tyrell and most of the other acolytes survive at the Citadel? Their families finacially support them. Had he gone to Oldtown the Tarlys would be covering his expenses. He would not be surviving alone.

Sure, that's a good reason to send him to the Wall.

Look how uses less he was in Braavos, expecting Dareon to earn the money for them.

Yep. That would be the top reason but there is also the fact that merely going to Oldtown does not make you a Maester. It requires a mental fortitude and a willingness not to give up that Sam had never shown any signs of till ADWD.

Had he gone to Oldtown and Randyll died in the War of the Five Kings then Sam would have became the Lord of Horn Hill. And that would have been a disaster. Unfortunately most of the people who have met Sam consider him weak and someone easily pushed around. They would have been ready to take advantage of him.

Not according to Sam. Sam states that his father was originally proud of him, yet Sam was always poor at training. He didn't become poor through 'abuse', as that came later.

Randyll was proud of having a son at all.

I agree, in more enlightened times with greater understanding of the human psyche or times when the head of House is not under the threat of war every generation more could have been done to placate Sam.

But ruling a House, especially a House on a border requires confidence, determination, will power, respect from vassals, allies and enemies and Sam was lacking in all of those.

I agree totally that he has other qualities which in a different time might have made him the perfect choice for a leader but not in the medieval ages where every House is competing with each other and will attack any perceived weakness.

No shit Sherlock!

Traditionally mothers and fathers had different roles in the raising of the children. I'm pretty sure you are aware of this. No idea why you are creating straw man arguments.

You asked me how I know that Sam was made what he was by his father, not by his mother, for example. I only answered your question, and I did it politely. I kind of hoped for similar politeness in your answers.

So why are you blabbering on about your experiences as a teacher?

This is rude. I was responding to another poster's observation concerning our time. (Read more carefully.) I did not share any of my actual experiences, by the way.

And how do you know Randyll hates Sam? I think you are projecting. We have no idea what he thinks about his son.

You have no idea perhaps.

"If you do not, then on the morrow we shall have a hunt, and somewhere in these woods your horse will stumble, and you will be thrown from the saddle to die... or so I will tell your mother. She has a woman's heart and finds it in her to cherish even you, and I have no wish to cause her pain. Please do not imagine that it will truly be that easy, should you think to defy me. Nothing would please me more than hunt you down like the pig you are." His arms were red to the elbow as he laid the skinning knife aside. "So there is your choice. The Night's Watch" - he reached inside the deer, ripped out its heart, and held it in his fist, red and dripping - "or this."

He genuinely, as do many others in Westeros, feel he is not cut out to lead a House. Tarly had to remove him from the succession line for the good of the House. He made a tough choice. He could have actually killed him, not only that he could have killed him many years before. He didn't. Instead he let him enjoy his remaining childhood years before he had to be removed from the succession line and sent to the Wall as a noble with a nobles armour and other goods. While I'm not suggesting that makes him a good father to Sam it is tangible evidence that he does not hate him, just very disappointed in him.

So he does not hate him, just "ignores" him. For years. The next time he notices him... see above.

A tough choice, but Randyll could die at any time and Sam being heir genuinely threatened the Tarlys current standing. He had to put the other Tarlys and the people of Horn Hill first.

And he absolutely had to do it in that cruel way (see the quote above).

Randyll was intelligent enough to realize this. That was why he stopped trying to train him and gave him a peaceful remaining childhood before he became a man at 15.

Sam went to the Wall at 15, he tells us that he had several years of peace. Realistically his training would not have started till around he was at least 5. He didn't suffer that long and most of it was what other young nobles were going through as well. It seemed worse to him because he was weaker, other nobles got used to the occasional hit.

Occasional hit? Being occasionally chained to a wall for days? Being occasionally paraded in front of others in humiliation? Having no occasional memories of a kind word from the father?

His dad wanted Sam to make it as a Lord as they have better lives than anyone else, unfortunately he was not capable of fulfilling the accepted duties of an heir. He was unwilling or unable to make any kind of effort. It is sad, I'm sure Randyll realizes that he bears some responsibility for that as well.

[DigitalCount]

The assertion that Randyll saw the light when Sam was maybe ten or so and stopped trying to train him is baseless. Randyll stopped trying to torture Sam because he had another son. That's the reason given. If Dickon hadn't been born, or had been Dyanne, he'd have kept trying to torture the only son he had into being a macho warrior like him. Randyll is an absolute moron and an abusive piece of crap besides.

One could read Jon's response as ignoring what Sam said and then changing the subject, or alternatively one could say he had no words to express a response. I'd argue the second is more likely given that there was that huge pause, but I've already given this topic more attention than it deserves.

Julia, I've believed this since the Slynt thread, but you have the patience of freaking Doran Martell.

[Lord Ravenstark]

The assertion that Randyll saw the light when Sam was maybe ten or so and stopped trying to train him is baseless. Randyll stopped trying to torture Sam because he had another son. That's the reason given. If Dickon hadn't been born, or had been Dyanne, he'd have kept trying to torture the only son he had into being a macho warrior like him. Randyll is an absolute moron and an abusive piece of crap besides.

One could read Jon's response as ignoring what Sam said and then changing the subject, or alternatively one could say he had no words to express a response. I'd argue the second is more likely given that there was that huge pause, but I've already given this topic more attention than it deserves.

Julia, I've believed this since the Slynt thread, but you have the patience of freaking Doran Martell.

"Torturing", Sam was a failure even before that. It is hard but they live in a different society, Sam had expectations upon him and he didn't manage to catch to them. It is not pleasant, but it's Sam's fault, you can't say Lord Tarly didn't try.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Well, if Dickon is truly his father's son, we don't really have to worry that he would lose his lordship to Sam.

Of course he does, it is a legitimate worry. That is not to say it will happen, but there is a chance that it could and it simply is not worth taking a chance on something like that which could destroy the Tarly House.

Besides, Sam would have announced he had forsaken all claim. Sam is not a warrior, but he is not stupid. He does not want to be a lord and he would know when he is manipulated.

It does not work like that. This thread is full of examples of why that does not work.

Being a Maester did not stop Aemon from possibly inheriting the Crown, being at the Wall did.

Anyone can study at the Citadel and not lose the right to inherit. Both Oberyn Martell and Lyonel Strong spent years at the Citadel and forging chains and it did not remove them from holding lands.

Sure, that's a good reason to send him to the Wall.

Thanks. Glad you agree.

This is rude. I was responding to another poster's observation concerning our time.

It is a bit late to complain about others being rude when your first line was a condescending "wow just wow".

I apologize if flippancy offends you.

So he does not hate him, just "ignores" him. For years. The next time he notices him... see above.

Read about Lord Marshall and his son. It is a very well documented relationship between a medieval Lord and his children actually written in the medieval times.

Lord Tarly had a lot on his plate as all Lords do. He did try to arrange him a huge marriage in that time and Sam himself messed that up, Sam seemed to enjoy himself.

Many fathers 'ignored' there son.

Lets have a look at Ned who would have been thousands of miles away from his two youngest sons indefinitely while he was Hand.

Jon Arryn does not seem like he spent a lot of time with Robin and was looking to send him away.

Robert ignores all of his children.

Doran Martell's daughter is convinced she hates him and they are close while Dorna admits that Quentyn should hate him as they have barely spent any time together.

I wish there was more father and son bonding with Lords and their sons but it just was not the case. Lords were constantly travelling while sons were sent off to other Lords/knights around the age of 10. As well as the many cases if infant mortality meant that Fathers did not get as close with sons as they should have.

Occasional hit? Being occasionally chained to a wall for days? Being occasionally paraded in front of others in humiliation? Having no occasional memories of a kind word from the father?

1.Kids have combat training, they are constantly being hit. We have been over this and you have even said that many other noble children would have been caned and hit.

Your issue here is with the society and not the individual. They had outdated modes of discipline and teaching.

2. He was once chained to a Wall, not occasionally.

I agree, this seems harsh. Other noble children may have suffered similar punishments and some would have seen much worse as they were sent off to war.

3. As explained before, the point of the exercise was to refuse and take the dress off. Others would have stood up for themselves and taken it off. Nothing could motivate him.

Randyll was limited to what he knew and what the men around him knew. He went to great lengths to try different methods and none worked.

[Nihlus]

I kinda feel bad for Randyll. He kept trying to make his kid into an able lord for the benefit of the family and of the hundreds of thousands of people that the family rules. He, according to Sam, had pride in his son at first. But Sam, who is weak in every sense of the word and has no self-discipline, kept fucking up and embarassing him.

Sam has no self-discipline? Hire magicians to fix it.

The magicians were a scam? Just send him to the master at arms.

Sam's martial tutor fails to get through to him? Hire another one.

Sam still can't learn from this one? Hire fucking ten more.

None of them can teach him? Send him to get fostered with Redwyne.

Sam got laughed out of Redwyne's court for being a wuss? Back to the basics.

The basics still don't work? Be really harsh.

Being harsh isn't working? Leave him alone with his books for a couple years, you've got another son anyway.

Sam is still a failure even when you're going easy on him? Send him to the Watch and hope they can straighten him out.

Sam uses his position in the Watch to break his vows, get a 16 year old boy elected as LC by rigging the vote (said boy fucks up immediately and gets shanked), and get his fellow brothers killed by being a wuss again? All while still having no backbone or leadership ability? Well, damn. He's a lost cause. Good thing you have another son!

"He just needs some seasoning, that's all."

"Yes, seasoning. Plus a bed of onions and an apple in his mouth!"

Speaking of the other son. He's turning out rather well, isn't he? Doesn't really gel with the idea that Randyll is a total monster and idiot

[thelittledragonthatcould]

snip

:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

[Ygrain]

Wow, so it's ok to force an 8 year old boy to watch his father behead a man :)? Why isnt that psychological child abuse? Or does only physical child abuse count?

Did you somehow miss the part that Bran is not traumatized? The beheading is presented as a hard and grim duty, giving at the same time a clean, quick death. No glorification of the act, no ravelling in the man's fear or pain (and note how Theon is presented like an idiot for laughing), but sense of personal sacrifice for being the one to carry out the act and psychological reassurance for Bran. If I was raised in this kind of environment, I'd totally approve. Yet, if I was raised in this kind of environment, I'd still consider Randyll a monster.

Yes he is. But let's speak about the psychological terror a 10 year old child named T. Greyjoy must have felt when he was kidnapped and taken hostage, with the fear to be beheaded every moment.

Or what about sending children into war like E.Dayne to fight psychopaths...

You're still mixing apples and bananas.

Speaking of the other son. He's turning out rather well, isn't he? Doesn't really gel with the idea that Randyll is a total monster and idiot

It's not difficult to do well if you happen to be the kind of person which your father demands.

When someone has that kind of attitude of course it's always the teacher's fault (Randyll), not the pupil's (Sam).

You're preaching to the choir - I'm a teacher. And I can tell damn well the difference between the student not working hard, or the task being completely beyond their abilities. And I have also seen my share of students not working hard because they are deeply convinced that it is no use because they are stupid/incapable/untalented/whatever. Giving them Fs left and right or making them do tons of grammar exercises which they will never do successfully won't solve their problem. At. All.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

You're preaching to the choir - I'm a teacher. And I can tell damn well the difference between the student not working hard, or the task being completely beyond their abilities. And I have also seen my share of students not working hard because they are deeply convinced that it is no use because they are stupid/incapable/untalented/whatever. Giving them Fs left and right or making them do tons of grammar exercises which they will never do successfully won't solve their problem. At. All.

And Randyll eventually came to that conclusion. But what was he supposed to do, just give up on Sam at a very young age? Is he really supposed to accept that his son, his flesh and blood, who he was so proud of was inferior to literally every other nobles children in Westeros?

He tried to motivate him, make him what the vast majority of Westerosi thought made a capable leader. That is his big crime, of wanting his son to succeed and failing.

Sam is pretty unique in Westeros, it is not like there are many kids with similar problems. Persevering may have worked on other boys, sadly it didn't on Sam. There was no guidebook, no online support group for Randyll to search. He tried 12 differen Master of Arms and even methods from as far away as Essos. Randyl tried to the best of his ability and the best of his knowledge.