A Pregnant Sansa

[Alayne's Shadow.]

I don't think Sansa's marital status will matter much by the end of the show or even in the books, otherwise they wouldn't give us this storyline. She's certainly not ending up with Tyrion now, and her marriage with Ramsay will be ignored when he dies. She's never called as Lady Bolton but as Lady Stark. Therefore, it most likely won't matter.

[Woman of War]

I don't think Sansa's marital status will matter much by the end of the show or even in the books, otherwise they wouldn't give us this storyline. She's certainly not ending up with Tyrion now, and her marriage with Ramsay will be ignored when he dies. She's never called as Lady Bolton but as Lady Stark. Therefore, it most likely won't matter.

I agree, she will not be the Lady of Winterfell as Sansa Bolton. Actually I doubt she will ever be Lady of Winterfell since there is Rickon.

Finally Sansa's endgame will not depend on some minor legal quibbles like the validity of a marriage contract if she survives the series.

If Martin wants to write her together with Tyrion they could simply marry again out of free will. If they want to go separate ways they will, married or not. We need not discuss the reasons the author might give the two protagonists for this or that decision since if he wants it to be plausible it will be, and the show will only follow Martin while going there first.

If there is a political marriage in store for her the show will follow Martin as well.

I think Sansa's endgame, life or death, are too important as plot point for the show to deviate from the storyline Martin gave them. And Martin will certainly find story solutions for those law and contract conflicts he himself created.

[lakin1013]

It is certainly a possibility in the back of my mind but since the they took her so far out of her own chracter, how much time does her character have on the show anyway? I think she will be the next Stark to die if there is another to die.

Do you mind sharing why you think Sansa will be the next Stark to die? I read your comment with interest and wondered if you had some text to back that up, or if it is your opinion? No tone here, just wondering.

[Robb_Warged]

If she is pregnant, I think she keeps it

[Grail King]

You are right, I have wondered about that too since Sansa is still married to Tyrion. And Baelish, if he can't reach Tyrion to kill him, would go for an annullment based on non-consummation.

The point is not virginity itself since a secret rape or secret sex could always be hidden by a wise woman restoring the hymen with foolproof medical competence. Done a million times all over the world. And aborting e.g. Harry's or Baelish's baby could be oganized by the same midwife as well.

The plot problem is that Sansa now officially and without mistake is no virgin anymore in the show and non consummation cannot be proved. And since absent Tyrion cannot be asked to kindly confirm the non consummation Sansa's hymen would be needed. Except that it isn't.

So far the show does its best to forget about her being married to Tyrion, the rumor of non consummation seems to be enough as proof. What would be the purpose of real or faked virginity in that case?

I'm in no way an expert on this, but would they have knowledge and or expertise in this especially in medieval times?

[Woman of War]

I'm in no way an expert on this, but would they have knowledge and or expertise in this especially in medieval times?

I have to admit that I am not sure about operations in Central Europe in history. But older relatives still joked about their tricks to fool guys without surgical intervention and my mother and I had a good laugh about Grandma's dirty secrets. But t I know that this is common practice not only in industrialized countries with good medical care. There cultures clash and girls seek help wanting to be "restored" to the norms of their family and the adresses of gynecologists taking pity in them and doing the operation for small money are an open secret. This is also done in middle east countries by not formally qualified but competent midwives.

But I would have to research myself about what happened in history. It is a really demeaning practice but often those young women rather choose to give in to the norms of their cultural family background even if they live round the corner in central Europe.

But maybe Martin will cool down the whole virginity business in the books too and write around this plot point.

[jarl the climber]

You are right, I have wondered about that too since Sansa is still married to Tyrion. And Baelish, if he can't reach Tyrion to kill him, would go for an annullment based on non-consummation.

The point is not virginity itself since a secret rape or secret sex could always be hidden by a wise woman restoring the hymen with foolproof medical competence. Done a million times all over the world. And aborting e.g. Harry's or Baelish's baby could be oganized by the same midwife as well.

The plot problem is that Sansa now officially and without mistake is no virgin anymore in the show and non consummation cannot be proved. And since absent Tyrion cannot be asked to kindly confirm the non consummation Sansa's hymen would be needed. Except that it isn't.

So far the show does its best to forget about her being married to Tyrion, the rumor of non consummation seems to be enough as proof. What would be the purpose of real or faked virginity in that case?

Well it could be that show Sansa was examined by someone who was supposed to be impartial, like a Maester, if Roose has one, and that her virginity was confirmed before she married Ramsey. Of course we weren't told any of that and Roose really did not seem to care if she was a virgin or not. Also, like you pointed out, the new High Septon is kind of a stickler and might think the examination should have been carried out by a member of the Faith. At the end of the day Roose is ruling the North if he says the girl is a virgin, that marriage between her and Tyrion is absolved and she is free to marry Ramsey that might be good enough for most people in the North. Who is going to argue with him? Now if Sansa leaves the North and goes to Kings Landing I guess this High Septon might see things different and have her arrested.

[FreeParking]

I think unlike the show, Sansa's virginity is a plot point in the books. Therefore, she most likely won't get pregnant, and since George has confirmed no rape, then most likely nothing like the show.

People keep saying the no rape thing in POVs, but I have never seen the article or video where GRRM says this. Do you have a link?

You are right, I have wondered about that too since Sansa is still married to Tyrion. And Baelish, if he can't reach Tyrion to kill him, would go for an annullment based on non-consummation.

As an aside, I have been wondering how in the books LF will get around the Sansa/Tyrion wedding as he seems fairly confidant it will be no problem. Cooperation with the HS seems highly unlikely for now. LF does know about the Tysha marriage though. Perhaps if LF could procure some evidence of this marriage, Sansa's wedding would automatically be void? I could see this happening quick enough that Sansa finds herself shoved into yet another marriage before she knows what's happening.

[A Ghost of Someone]

Do you mind sharing why you think Sansa will be the next Stark to die? I read your comment with interest and wondered if you had some text to back that up, or if it is your opinion? No tone here, just wondering.

On the show, the writers felt so cool about removing her and using her somewhere else, it seems that she is not that important. Like Le Cygne calls her "interchangeable female unit #3". It tells me that she is expendable to a certain degree. Now, I might be very well off on this and I may not be going far enough. I guess both Stark girls die in the books but the show could be different.

[King Tyrion I]

People keep saying the no rape thing in POVs, but I have never seen the article or video where GRRM says this. Do you have a link?

As an aside, I have been wondering how in the books LF will get around the Sansa/Tyrion wedding as he seems fairly confidant it will be no problem. Cooperation with the HS seems highly unlikely for now. LF does know about the Tysha marriage though. Perhaps if LF could procure some evidence of this marriage, Sansa's wedding would automatically be void? I could see this happening quick enough that Sansa finds herself shoved into yet another marriage before she knows what's happening.

The Tysha marriage was dissolved. There's no way LF could benefit of that or make use of it.

Tyrion and Sansa got married in the light of the Seven. By the High Septon. Even if said High Septon doesn't hold that office any longer.

[Woman of War]

People keep saying the no rape thing in POVs, but I have never seen the article or video where GRRM says this. Do you have a link?

As an aside, I have been wondering how in the books LF will get around the Sansa/Tyrion wedding as he seems fairly confidant it will be no problem. Cooperation with the HS seems highly unlikely for now. LF does know about the Tysha marriage though. Perhaps if LF could procure some evidence of this marriage, Sansa's wedding would automatically be void? I could see this happening quick enough that Sansa finds herself shoved into yet another marriage before she knows what's happening.

I had that nice pet theory a long time ago that LF might produce a fake Tysha like fake Arya who 1. testifies that Tyrion might still be married to her. But it is thoroughly unlikely that Tywin did not see to the validity of annullment - or he would have had Tysha killed. So the whole testimonial would be shaky. But 2. Tyrion might return to Westeros in the speed of light if Baelish lets him know that (a fake)Tysha is alive and he might run into Baelish's dangerous trap.

But the show has madeTysha much less important so I doubt that we will have that for Tyrion earth shaking revelation that there is Tysha somewhere. Actually I believe that we will never hear about the fate of Tysha. There goes my nice little theory.

[A Ghost of Someone]

The Tysha marriage was dissolved. There's no way LF could benefit of that or make use of it.

Tyrion and Sansa got married in the light of the Seven. By the High Septon. Even if said High Septon doesn't hold that office any longer.

How was the tysha marriage disolved? It was consummated.

[A Ghost of Someone]

I had that nice pet theory a long time ago that LF might produce a fake Tysha like fake Arya who 1. testifies that Tyrion might still be married to her. But it is thoroughly unlikely that Tywin did not see to the validity of annullment - or he would have had Tysha killed. So the whole testimonial would be shaky. But 2. Tyrion might return to Westeros in the speed of light if Baelish lets him know that Tysha is alive and he might run into Baelish's dangerous trap.

But the show has madeTysha much less important so I doubt that we will have that for Tyrion earth shaking revelation that there is Tysha somewhere. There goes my nice little theory.

"Wherever whores go". Littlefinger is the premier Pimp of Westeros. He, if all people would maybe have connections as he undoubtably uses them to procure foreign women for his brothels. Just an Idea.

[Woman of War]

How was the tysha marriage disolved? It was consummated.

If the marriage was not dissolved beyond all doubt Tysha is dead, whether the story will confirm it or not. No way Tywin was not thorough, a lapse like that would not happen to him.

But, as I said above, this is obviously not important since the show never really returned to the memory of Tysha. Only Baelish might be quite wrong about the validity of Sansa's marriage to Bolton since the High Sparrow might refuse the annullment of her marriage to Tyrion. So, back to topic, a potential child of Sansa would still be a Bolton and not a "bastard". But it could turn out to be Tyrion's child by law - the marriage still existing in the eyes of the Faith - as long as Tyrion does not declare it illegitimate.

[King Tyrion I]

How was the tysha marriage disolved? It was consummated.

Go back to "Baelor" - Tyrion himself told Shae and Bronn about it. Or reread AGoT.

[King Tyrion I]

How was the tysha marriage disolved? It was consummated.

Go back to "Baelor" - Tyrion himself told Shae and Bronn about it. Or reread AGoT.

[rosehustle1]

In Sansa's case since she has ridden horses couldn't she have already had a broken hymen even before she was betrothed to Tyrion? Since they acknowledge that highborn girls will ride horses from a young age how can they really focus on the hymen as evidence enough of virginity? This is mostly a general question because I genuinely don't know how they base decisions on this kind evidence when it could be hard to tell.

[A Ghost of Someone]

In Sansa's case since she has ridden horses couldn't she have already had a broken hymen even before she was betrothed to Tyrion? Since they acknowledge that highborn girls will ride horses from a young age how can they really focus on the hymen as evidence enough of virginity? This is mostly a general question because I genuinely don't know how they base decisions on this kind evidence when it could be hard to tell.

I think in Sansa's case in book or show, that did not happen. Cersei claimed it happend to her and probably did, which freed her to do things with Jaime before she was married. Margeary is claiming the same thing.

[Pc2004]

Does it really matter. I mean for most lords wouldn't the Stark's name and honor be enough to trust Sansa if she chose to say she still was a Maiden, especially in the North. Hey northern lords, etc. I will marry you and unite the North for which u would be Lord of Winterfell if you........seems like a pretty good selling point to me. She simply would have to negate that her brothers are still alive. I am sure most people would trust a mid teen girl when she says her marriage wasn't consummated and little examination would be needed. And if there was a need I'm sure LF knows someone to vouch for her.

As far as being pregnant, well that would be a different story. Truly the only way I see her ending up pregnant would be if GRRM stuck to the original idea of Sansa becoming pregnant by an enemy or if she is taken by force in the books. For budget said, the WF plot mashup would make sense. Something they already were going to do anyways then just toss in a Sansa bedding/rape/whatever so she ends up pregnant. Less need for any extra money on Vale scenes, extras, etc.

I sure hope not but with the show, who knows

[voodooqueen126]

You post is so full of twisted stuff that I won't go into detail and simply state that your approach to children, handicapped people, human rights and motherhood is completely incompatible with mine. And thank you for teaching me but I have a master's degree in economics focusing on population and social politics under the viewpoint of women.

- So murder for eugenic reasons is - in application of post stone age morality - more defensible than rape? Good that you know your priorities.

- No problem, Jinglebells was only "backwards", who cares, not that Martin wanted to show a moral dilemma here....... Back to eugenics.

- postnatal depression is a serious problem, the women concerned should get all the help possible and not hear that their child is a "threat to the health and survival of the group".

- according to Wiki the reproductive functions of those with achondroplasia are normal, so there is no reason to believe that Tyrion has "a lower sperm count"

- why should anyone prefer a child for the reason that he or she is 6 ft 9 ?? Remember, stone age is over.

Your post would be fun if it weren't so sad.

I am putting this under spoiler tags since I think I am derailing the thread :ninja: :ph34r:

Well, now women have access to contraception, sufficient food, pre-natal testing, baby hatches.. so many things have changed since paleolithic times (even if our brains are basically the same) that of course it unconscionable murder. Yet these factors have an affect on the rate of infanticide (very high in hunter gather societies, very low * in ours) shows that the motives are rational. Nothing seems to fix the fact that men have a sense of entitlement about women's bodies, and will make us suffer for their pleasure.

I presume he did want to show Catelyn's spiral into madness in the moments before death. I am just remarking on the change from the books to the show.

Of course it is: for women who have waited until their late 20's or early 30's to have a child, because they made every effort to bring their child into a perfect home... then to be plagued by bizarre thoughts and terrible depression... it doesn't make sense... naturally help must be sought; this is a much desired child that the mother has wanted for years. Nevertheless I was speculating as to why something so irrational (in that harms, rather than helps a mother's ability to care for her newborn) is so common: perhaps, I speculate, it is a holdover for when infanticide was a common method of population control, such a state of temporary insanity could've made it easier for warm and tender hearted women who love their children to undertake such an evil deed..

uh.k. I probably read that at the same place I read that the rate of sexual assault was lower in hunter gatherer societies than industrial ones.

On a subconscious level, I think women who pick their favourite child do so if their body knows it will have greater reproductive success. Which bigger, stronger, healthier children have a better chance of doing than smaller, weaker, frailer children...

On a conscience level, does not a woman love her child of passion, excitement and gallantry**... more than her child of duty, self sacrifice, financial & Political necessity.

Certainly that is the justification that a woman might give herself.

Remember the meaning of life is to have descendants, and we still have stone age brains, no matter how advanced our technology.

Of course the show is not going to go there. Not many people are willing to think about this and it is considered a moral event horizon. Heck, moon tea (which is apparently not sufficiently dramatic anyway) is something that American audiences consider unsympathetic.

On the other hand many families in Show!Westeros suffer from only child syndrome or two child syndrome. So perhaps everyone has low fertility and we wont have to deal with such an obnoxious ending as "Sansa happily raises her rapists baby with St Tyrion's help."

*That is murder within the first few hours of life, for the more common death by neglect and abuse, the triad of risk factors are domestic violence, drug and alcohol abuse and mental illness. However given your masters I am guessing you are/were involved in the community services industry (or some related industry :pimp: ) so you're probably already familiar with those risk factors

**by which i mean "I have loved you for years, and now I am willing to die for you" :fencing: :fencing: is much more gallant than "my abusive father told me i would never get my inheritance, so I married you for your claim, you're a pariah, rejected by your own family and I need a pretty, high born girl to give birth to my heirs and demonstrate my magnanimity to other men but let's pretend I am doing this because I am a saint, and you should be grateful because I am so compassionate and forgiving of your failure to see my true, saintly nature when my monstrous father forced you to marry me the first time.