R+L=J v.146

[IceFire125]

They'll be posting them eventually. They mention who is writing which essay here.

Thanks for the link. I will certainly look forward to them.

[Ygrain]

Ah. I see. Till then, then, unless wolfmaid wants to argue her favourite beforehands.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

I need the texts.

Good luck with that. I am expecting something like "Since there is magic in this word a pregnancy can last more than a year and/or Lyanna was a greater illusionists than BR and was able to change Jon's features from the birth."

[stateofdissipation]

I agree with you on the first one. The foreshadowing of Jon as a king could just as easily be about some future as king in the North, without any parentage reveals in play.

I disagree on the second. I will admit, I love that passage comparing Ned, Penrose, and Roose Bolton, mostly because it was my "aha!" moment with RLJ. I think it's a fairly deft comparison that is also pretty specific. It's set up as a three way comparison, talking about men and bastard children. Ned is compared with two men, Cortnay Penrose and Roose Bolton. The first is NOT the father of the boy in question but protects him valiantly from someone who might want him killed for his blood. The second is the father of the boy and dismisses his "death" with ease. Ned is compared to the former, despite the surface similarities to the latter. It's not the last time Jon and Ramsay will be paralleled in weird, inverted ways (the question of legitimization, the question of Winterfell, the whole "grey girl" and fArya business). It's not like the situations are exactly the same, obviously, but the analogy made is pretty much Ned:Jon::Penrose:Edric. I agree that for the comparison to work, Jon wouldn't need to be the son of a king. But he would have to be needing protection from something, kept safe from something. And we know in the north, people hide from kings under Snow. (The capitalization is mine, the reference from AGOT.)

And I do agree that ignoring viable alternatives is dubious. But to me, the other theories of his parentage don't hold with analysis of the text, whether factual (Ned claims to always keep his vows a page before thinking of his bastard son?) or with regards to foreshadowing, thematics, motif...

Exclusion of alternatives does not strengthen the case for RLJ.... Robert and Cersei, Ned and Cat, Roose Bolton and Walda Frey can all be excluded as possible parents for Jon. Doing so does nothing to establish who Jon's parents were.

We have half a hundred examples of things that can be taken multiple ways choosing and expounding on the one way that might support RLJ has truly been done to death...

Have you done an analysis to the text facts, foreshadowing, thematics, motif... to support alternate theory?

Say the consistent references and events that show how much Jon is Ned's son....

Whoever his mother was she left little of herself in the boy..

Jon's face so much like a younger version of his own..

Jon looked more like his father than any of his trueborn children...

Jon and Ned betraying a vow for a woman--the Night's Watch and Cat for Ashara and Ygritte

Jon and Ned choosing duty over love-- Cat and the Night's Watch

the death of the woman Ashara and Ygritte

Ned becoming Hand of the king, Jon becoming Lord Commander of the Night's watch

Choosing to protect family over duty to their position--- Ned's false confession and Jon's decision to go to Winterfell.

Ned and Jon died as a result of that choice.

This is not intended to prove NAJ or hinder RLJ.... It is intended to show that RLJ does not have a monopoly of motif, theme, and foreshadowing...

I do not know which claim to always keep his vows that you refer to...

The one where Robert swears undying love at night and forgets about it by morning but Ned kept his promises springs to mind, I apologize if that was not included in your reference.

Robert forgot about his bastards, Ned brought his home and called him son for all the world to see... The statement can be taken as an absolute confirmation of Ned's holy character. However it is given as a comparison between Ned and Robert-- two men that have fathered recognized bastards-- two men that deal with their bastards in completely opposite ways.

[Adaneth]

Cersei pledges her love for Rhaegar as for a long time ago. This be why she has stayed mad with Lyanna. The Lady Lyanna steals her two loves in life- have Robert and Rhaegar and Cersei left only for her brother passions.

When Cersei has staying with Starks on Winterfell she has eyes on Jon Snows. Because Rhaegar is Jon's real paternity, Cersei can see Rhaegar in Jon if he looks much Targaryen. Cersei is jealous woman, her eyes flying everything.

You have reason. Jon is Stark look not Rhaegar look, but Rhaegar has dark Martell looking in his heritage. Jon must looks as Martell-Stark because no silver hairs. If Jon looks like dragon kings, no more story. GRRM does not giving us easy answers.

Sorry but you're writing your own book now. Cersei looking for a Rhaegar descendent in WF it's simply not true. Where did you read that? There is nothing to suggest that and quite frankly it's ridiculous if you think of. Why would she look there for a possible Rhaegar son? She has no idea that Lyanna and Rhaegar had a son. It's not even confirmed for us readers that indeed they had one. There're hints, and for me it's the best supported theory, but Cersei has no idea about it whatsoever.

[Alia of the knife]

Just for the sake of arguing the alternative and R+L isn't specifically Jon, still R+L= someone out there, because Lyanna died giving birth to a child of Rhaegars.

[stateofdissipation]

Just for the sake of arguing the alternative and R+L isn't specifically Jon, still R+L= someone out there, because Lyanna died giving birth to a child of Rhaegars.

Lyanna died giving birth. The child was a boy or a girl. The child survived or died. Out there could also include the crypts in Winterfell or a grave in Starfall.

Lyanna having a living child with Rhaegar and that child alive somewhere--not with Stark-- leaves the Targ side of the family or supporters of either.--Not getting into leave the child on somebody's doorstep--

if you have a more specific direction than Targ relatives and supporters or Stark supporters... it would be more helpful than a list of those...

[LmL]

No disrespect meant but I am rather short of time (and mental capacity) these days, is there a tl;dr version?

Apologies, no, the first section of this essay is the TLDR of the general theory - the rest goes into figuring the black greasy stone and what's up with Azor Ahai. I understand about time, it's hard to sit in front of a screen for half an hour. I am planning to record audio versions for that reason. Ygrain, have you used your speech to text on your computer? If you have an apple you can use the voice "Alex" and it's tolerable. You can have your computer read you my essay. ;)

It's also broken into sections of you want to do a little at a time. I promise it is interesting :)

[Ygrain]

No apples around here, I'm afraid, except those in the fridge :-)

I'll give it a try but can't promise when.

[Sly Wren]

Sorry but you're writing your own book now. Cersei looking for a Rhaegar descendent in WF it's simply not true. Where did you read that? There is nothing to suggest that and quite frankly it's ridiculous if you think of. Why would she look there for a possible Rhaegar son? She has no idea that Lyanna and Rhaegar had a son. It's not even confirmed for us readers that indeed they had one. There hints, and for me it's the best supported theory, but Cersei has no idea about it whatsoever.

:agree:

Cersei later enjoys snarking at Ned about being Jon's father, throwing out rumors about Jon's mother--she has no idea that anyone other than Ned could be Jon's father. She believes Ned is the father.

And Ned's being tense with the Lannisters and Robert at Winterfell--he's got plenty of reasons to be unhappy and tense and worried outside of anything that might be tied to Jon. No reason to think any of that is fear about Cersei's maybe looking at Jon as Rhaegar's son.

[Adaneth]

Why should fans of RLJ have to bend over backwards, considering feelings and thoughts of other fans that have strong disapproval of RLJ as a theory and expect to give equal weight to other theories, when in their minds/hearts feel that RLJ is the 'most' correct. It's like we can't fully enjoy discussing the theory without getting bombarded long essays declaring that there are gaps, that we must consider other theories first because of those gaps, as if, we haven't done that already. :dunno:

Well said! :agree:

Why can't some people see that some RLJ fans became fans in the first place, because of those very hints, clues and foreshadowing of Jon's royal heritage.

I fully agree. I don't call RLJ theory supporters, or any other theory for that matter, "fans". At least, I don't consider myself a fan. As I've already said this is not the Football World Cup with teams playing against each other. :fencing: :rolleyes:

I mentioned in another topic that there is no reason to feel disappointed or sad with any theory that will be revealed false or true in the end. As long as the final solution is well structured and well written the readers should be happy. That's all you want from a writer. Good stories and good writing.

My opinion on the RLJ comes from the many hints on the book. Could that be a red herring? Sure. Are there other options? Of course. But until we know for sure this one is the best supported theory I've read so far. It's not like I'm rooting for Rhaegar and Lyanna. The man is not my brother and she's not my sister or friend. :P

The only character I'm completely invested, emotionally, is Arya Stark :wub: , followed to a lesser degree by Tyrion. That's it.

[LmL]

Ok, fine; the extremely TLDR version.

The ancient folklore of Planetos has more truth to it than many imagine. That Qarthine story about a second moon that used to exist that got too close to the sun and cracked to pour forth a thousand thousand dragons is true, after a fashion. There was a second moon in the Dawn Age, and it was destroyed by a comet in a kind of magical chain reaction explosion. The radiated moon rocks fell to earth - that's the greasy black stone we find around - and some combination of the debris of the moon meteorite impacts and the magical fallout of the same caused the Long Night.

Azor Ahai was not the hero who ended the Long Night, but the opposite. The Bloodstone Emperor is just another name for AA, and we are talking about some kind of magical sorcerer king who enslaved his people and practiced all the dark arts - his base of operations was, of course, Asshai, and his people were the ancient dragonlords who came before Valyria.

His sword was more of a nightbringer than a Lightbringer, although it DID probably end up in the hands of the Last Hero as dragonsteel and serve a noble purpose - someone was able to take a terrible weapon of death and use it to preserve life, something like that. Thus the legacy of Azor Ahai is not what it seems (shocker), and we are all right to highly suspicious of the R'hllorists.

Then there's some more specific stuff about the concept of black blood, which demons, dragons, Melisandre, Beric, and a few others poses. There's tons of Jon and Dany quotes, as I rely on heavy textual corroboration. I believe there's a layer of astronomy metaphor that runs through the whole story - that's why he spends so much time on vivid descriptions of the moon and sky so often.

What I have found is that George writes his main action like mythology, where everyone and everything is a symbol making up a larger metaphor. My essays take a comparative mythology approach to analyzing the symbolism of important scenes, which I feel has yielded outstanding results.

[LmL]

No apples around here, I'm afraid, except those in the fridge :-)

I'll give it a try but can't promise when.

I have the Pawn to Player seal of approval, if that makes any difference. ;) They were kind enough to link to me from their front page. It's less tinfoily than it sounds. ;)

[Adaneth]

:agree:

Cersei later enjoys snarking at Ned about being Jon's father, throwing out rumors about Jon's mother--she has no idea that anyone other than Ned could be Jon's father. She believes Ned is the father.

Like anybody else (at least as far as we readers know till now), and from plain text he is. Cersei snarking at Ned about Jon just gives us a better picture of what a faccia tosta she is, since she herself has 3 bastards. ;)

And Ned's being tense with the Lannisters and Robert at Winterfell--he's got plenty of reasons to be unhappy and tense and worried outside of anything that might be tied to Jon. No reason to think any of that is fear about Cersei's maybe looking at Jon as Rhaegar's son.

Plenty of reasons indeed.

[Ygrain]

Ok, fine; the extremely TLDR version.

The ancient folklore of Planetos has more truth to it than many imagine. That Qarthine story about a second moon that used to exist that got too close to the sun and cracked to pour forth a thousand thousand dragons is true, after a fashion. There was a second moon in the Dawn Age, and it was destroyed by a comet in a kind of magical chain reaction explosion. The radiated moon rocks fell to earth - that's the greasy black stone we find around - and some combination of the debris of the moon meteorite impacts and the magical fallout of the same caused the Long Night.

Azor Ahai was not the hero who ended the Long Night, but the opposite. The Bloodstone Emperor is just another name for AA, and we are talking about some kind of magical sorcerer king who enslaved his people and practiced all the dark arts - his base of operations was, of course, Asshai, and his people were the ancient dragonlords who came before Valyria.

His sword was more of a nightbringer than a Lightbringer, although it DID probably end up in the hands of the Last Hero as dragonsteel and serve a noble purpose - someone was able to take a terrible weapon of death and use it to preserve life, something like that. Thus the legacy of Azor Ahai is not what it seems (shocker), and we are all right to highly suspicious of the R'hllorists.

Then there's some more specific stuff about the concept of black blood, which demons, dragons, Melisandre, Beric, and a few others poses. There's tons of Jon and Dany quotes, as I rely on heavy textual corroboration. I believe there's a layer of astronomy metaphor that runs through the whole story - that's why he spends so much time on vivid descriptions of the moon and sky so often.

What I have found is that George writes his main action like mythology, where everyone and everything is a symbol making up a larger metaphor. My essays take a comparative mythology approach to analyzing the symbolism of important scenes, which I feel has yielded outstanding results.

You are most kind, and this sounds pretty intriguing. I agree that AA is most probably not the good guy in this story but what I find interesting is the connection between AA and PTWP - are they indeed one and the same, and how does it all play with ice and fire and CotF involvement? Mel expects AA to be a champion of fire, but with the infusion of Stark blood, he would appear to be a champion of both. Could it be that CotF, or whoever the third player might be, actually manipulated the AA prophecy towards this goal?

[Linda's Colours Ran]

Okay, so Jon's identity is based on the looks. Fine.

He looks like a Stark. That much we know. However, since Jon's mother left so little of herself in how Jon's looks (because he appears so strongly a Stark), we are to conclude that Ned had an affair with an alien woman. Maybe a white walkers woman? Why not? ^_^ Or maybe he had a secret affair with Lyanna, thus all those nightmares and price he paid. ;)

The Bold and the Beautiful. :wub:

Me look into your pasts n I sees Js surround with stars

Bold n beautiful what that?

[LmL]

Absolutely, because we know that Rhaegar was, at least some of the time, acting according to his interpretation of prophecy. I think Jon can be seen as a kind of "Azor Ahai reborn in an icy sheath - meaning, his fire dragon nature is tempered by the icy legacy of the Starks, passed down through Lyanna. I think most agree that out of control fire magic is just a big a menace as the out of control ice magic. To me that's the most significant aspect of RLJ - Jon's dual magical heritage, more than his claim to the throne (I'd be surprised to see him make a claim for such, although he would likely grow into a good ruler).

Dany and Jon seem to both be heirs to some kind of magical legacy, but it doesn't seem to be a one for one "Jon represents AA and Dany represents NN" type of thing. More like, both have the potential to fulfil either side of the bargain. Plus, we have other characters like Davos, Sam, and Brienne, who seem to be playing a part in taking on the mantle of AA's legacy to some extent, so I think the answers about the TPTWP and AA "reborn" will be more complex than people like Mel believe them to be.

[LmL]

Freakin double.... Hodor hodor hodor.

[Bael's Bastard]

Could it be that CotF, or whoever the third player might be, actually manipulated the AA prophecy towards this goal?

I find it very fascinating that Jaehaerys II forced Aerys and Rhaella to marry based on the word of what might have been a COTF. We know what the woods witch told Jaehaerys of such a match, but if she is a COTF I imagine there is much she wasn't telling them. Perhaps she even has a completely different motivation for seeing this line and the offspring it could produce? Whatever the case, we have two possible COTF in the story over the last twenty years, and they both seem to have been/be involved influencing things in significant ways.

[Lord Varys]

Prophecy stuff:

I don't think that the Ghost's prophecy is a mystery there - we know for a certainty she can foresee stuff, so why should she makeup stuff? Presumably Jaehaerys had ample evidence that she wasn't a fraud before he based his decision to marry Aerys to Rhaella on her words.

The promised prince was already known as a concept to the Targaryens when the Ghost made her prophecy. She gave additional information - that the promised prince will be born from the union of Aerys and Rhaella - but she didn't introduce the concept.

If there is an actual true prophecy about the coming of a savior called the promised prince then it can only be true if that savior actually comes - messing with the prophecy or the coming savior would be a futile attempt. I don't think the Children are stupid enough to do this kind of thing - the morons doing that are Melisandre and Cersei/Qyburn.

We have no textual evidence that the promised prince is supposed to have non-Targaryen blood of any specific sort. And Rhaegar believed that Aegon's song is the Song of Ice and Fire, not that the savior embodied this song - that's something people try to read in the text which is simply not there. This does not mean that the savior can't have Stark blood, but there are no hints that this is a requirement any prophecy ever made. Not to mention that there are only scarce references connecting the Starks to ice in a deeper sense. They are wargs, not riders of ice-dragons. And the wolf-blooded Starks - Brandon, Lyanna, Arya - are generally passionate and hot-headed rather than icy insofar as their characters are concerned. The ancient Targaryens rode dragons and practiced fire magic back in the Freehold but nothing suggests something like that for any ancient Stark in the 'ice field'.