R+L=J v.146

[aDanceWithFlagons]

My point is that the rather big age difference pretty much shows that Rhaegar effectively abused Lyanna. He was an older, sexually experienced active man who also happened to be in a more powerful position than she was. An 18-year-old man and a 15-year-old girl would be one thing. A 13-14-year-old girl and 22-year-old is an entirely different thing. And the whole thing began at Harrenhal when Lyanna was still that young.

It begs the question what Rhaegar saw in this girl besides her blossoming womanly shape. We all know that girls and boys hitting adolescence are very attractive to any age group - especially if they are very beautiful - but they usually are also shallow and not very deep or interesting personality (simply because they lack experience and knowledge). I'm not sure what Rhaegar - a very educated and smart person, apparently - saw in Lyanna besides the obvious. Sure, there was this whole knightly valor/fighting for poor Howland chivalry thing - but you usually don't fall in love or cherish somebody all that much for staying up for somebody.

Hormones could have sustained the whole thing for the short time they had together, to be sure, but the whole thing wouldn't a big or special love story then.

Rhaegar actually had the promised prince already - his son, Prince Aegon. Whatever speculation there is about a child by him and Lyanna is just speculation. The case that Rhaegar wouldn't want the third dragon head to be a bastard is not necessarily convincing. Orys Baratheon saved Aegon and his sisters well despite the fact that he may have been a bastard, just as Brynden Rivers served Daeron II and his sons.

There doesn't have to be a marriage involved. But if there was a marriage I'd expect Rhaegar forced Lyanna to marry just as he took her by force.

Good points here. The age of majority is sixteen and Lyanna was not of that age at the time. No matter who took her or hid her away, she was in her minority and Lord Stark 'owned' Lyanna. No one had the right to Lyanna's life except Rickard and then Ned.

[Sly Wren]

Basically, yes, if Lyanna is turned off by Robert's infidelity, it would make her a hypocrite to run off with a married man. I don't even think we can conclude for sure that Lyanna even had a baby. We're assuming either of those scenarios took place. I've already talked about this, but the description of Lyanna lying in gore sounds a lot more violent to me than childbirth.

1. Agree that Lyanna's statements re: Bob=man-whore make her running off with him and/or marrying him less likely. It really gives me pause. But even willful teenagers can be hypocrites. It's possible--but married or just a fling--doesn't make either of them look good. Those aren't the only scenarios, obviously. But we've no set evidence on how they "disappeared." Just that they did.

2. I'll grant you we don't have a witness on the baby. And that the gore does raise questions--but the baby-having seems at least very likely. "Bed of blood" is used re: childbirth in a few places in the novels. It isn't definitively exclusive to childbirth, but it isn't branched out, either. And Lyanna=mama is definitely the easiest way to explain Ned's keeping the baby.

3. But the gore around Lyanna--spattered gown, tears of blood--and the "Other" imagery--that's there, too. My current theory is that it's foreshadowing Jon's purpose--and maybe Lyanna's fear of it. That's really just a guess at this point. But at present, I can't see how the spattered gown or tears of blood preclude Lyanna's having a baby. Really seems like she did.

[Lady Darry]

LV

Yes I agree with marriage, it really doesn't make any sense. Unless if he was a 'big bad' in the sorry. But then he would have to be both the big bad and totally stupid.

I think this is like Darkstar. GRRM wanted a cool bad guy, but he failed. If GRRM wants Rhaegar to be a good guy, then it was not a rape, because GRRM never intended it that way. Because we don't have a middle ground here. You can't be a grey character if you are a rapist or abuser. So either he was a grey character but not a rapist, or a good character but not a rapist, or Robert was right. Her age makes me believe Robert was right (but GRRM said in his SSM that the truth about the nature of Lyanna and Rhaegar relationship is elusive, which means Robert was not right). GRRM could make her 16 years old at HR. But maybe if she would be 16 at HR she would already be married, and she had to be younger than that. Because GRRM wanted her to be betrothed but not married.

If Lyanna would be 16 years old at HR, then she would probably be already married to Robert. He was a man grown and Lord of Storm's End. It would made sense for them to get married the moment she would be a women grown. So maybe this is reason she is so young? This and all of those Arthurian legends (about maidens) GRRM loves. Maiden is a girl younger then 16, and story demands a maiden.

GRRM sexualised Arya and she's even younger. So I don't think it is strange that Rhaegar would like Lyanna. It is a thing in ASOIAF. GRRM can do whatever he wants. He has a door open for 'evil' Rhaegar, which he was if her age was a problem (because you don't have middle ground here), or he was a gray/ good/ dark grey character and her age is just a GRRM thing.

(in wiki a year of her birth is 266 or 267-which means she was 15 or 16 in HR? Is Cersei in Bran II our only source of Lya age?)

[Shiny!!]

C'mon now. We just had this talk from the mod in the last thread. No spamming up the place.

Sorry if give offense :( I see this in previous threads, I see now it's against rules

[Mother of Dragons]

3. But the gore around Lyanna--spattered gown, tears of blood--and the "Other" imagery--that's there, too. My current theory is that it's foreshadowing Jon's purpose--and maybe Lyanna's fear of it. That's really just a guess at this point. But at present, I can't see how the spattered gown or tears of blood preclude Lyanna's having a baby. Really seems like she did.

That is an interesting notion. Like for telling his battle against the WWs? See I think I'm an RLJ agnostic. I really want to believe, but it was the Eddard brothel chapter that kind of rained on that for me. Particularly when Ned's thinking about how Rhaegar wasn't one to frequent brothels- which to me implies he's not the guy who will take another wife or mistress.

Also, what Lord Varys said I could see more likely than a love story, especially with the bloody description of her death.

A big reason I think she died violently is from the chapter where Ned is talking to Arya and tells her how she has the wolf blood like Brandon and Lyanna, which led them to early graves. Brandon died violently because of his temper, I drew the same parallel with Lyanna.

[Alia of the knife]

Ha. My father is an historian and I'm voracious reader myself and loooove history (more of an "expert" in WWII though). :)

Nothing against powerful men and it's not about gender. ;) It's just that I've come to realise that I myself know lot less about those women (except few who're famous) than men. I watched a BBC documentary "She-Wolves: England's Early Queens" 3 months ago and I realised how little I knew about Margaret of Anjou, for example, and almost nothing about Isabella of France. I didn't know a lot of things about Eleanor also.

You would like my nephew then. He just got back from Normandy and Cyprus for his Doctorate to teach history in College, specializing in WW2.

He's had several things published already on Patton.

Loved my dad, which is probably why I am drawn to Arya and Ned, as well as what I suspect about Lyanna and Rickard.despite whatever ambitions he had.

The She Wolves documentary. I NEED to see that.

- Margaret, the "She Wolf" of France who fought Richard of York to protect her sons rights, beginning "The War of the Roses."

- Isabella of Angouleme "kidnapped" by King John, and supposedly had a lover of hers drawn and quartered, hanging his bits and pieces on the canopy of her bed, putting the "D" in "Daaamn," in terms of epic domestic disputes.

- Eleanor, who was the other half of a civil war with son against son against their father.

LOVE them.

[Alia of the knife]

My hubby told me that he read on "Zerdnet" that at the end of the finale, you could see Jons eyes "lighten to purple," though with Kits eyes being brown, it was ever so subtle. :drool:

[BearQueen87]

Whooah! Put on the breaks, BQ, I'm just answering the questions you asked me, no need to get feisty :) I don't proclaim to have a latest theory or know the truth, I just read over some passages that convinced me, personally, that I could eliminate Ray-Ray as Jon's baby daddy.

Who says the Starks have honor? I thought that was argued over here as to why Ned kept Jon's parentage a secret. Because of honor.

I was just asking a question. You made a statement without backing it up or providing examples and ignoring evidence to the contrary (ie: there were/are Starks who aren't honorable--a highly subjective term to begin with). And then I asked what your new theory is so that we could discuss it. Since you don't have one, by your own admission, what passages? If you're going to try and say that you no longer believe RLJ then try to explain why so that way we could have a meaningful dialogue.

And as to your last point. Ned having Honor = / = all Starks have honor. Ned is not all Starks.

Doesn't SF Danny's argument contradict yours? She says royals are not the King, and need to do as the King says. But you're saying he doesn't.

Perhaps SF Danny and I do not agree. I will not speak for SF Danny. Only myself. You do not need permission of your father or the king to marry. Aegon V's kids, Tyrion, and others are examples in the universe.

Basically, yes, if Lyanna is turned off by Robert's infidelity, it would make her a hypocrite to run off with a married man. I don't even think we can conclude for sure that Lyanna even had a baby. We're assuming either of those scenarios took place. I've already talked about this, but the description of Lyanna lying in gore sounds a lot more violent to me than childbirth.

Making her a hypocrite isn't solid enough evidence to say they weren't married. Just evidence that Lyanna was young, willful, and subject to changes in perspective based on life experiences and her own emotional state. So...human. And as for the bed of blood, every time bed of blood or bloody bed is used...it's childbirth. There have been so many times that we've pointed out all the passages in ASOIAF in which this is true.

[Adaneth]

Basically, yes, if Lyanna is turned off by Robert's infidelity, it would make her a hypocrite to run off with a married man.

My opinion (impression or feeling, I don't know which is more correct to use) is that she was never into Robert. She didn't knew him. Her father promised her hand to Robert Baratheon. She had heard that he had an illegitimate daughter, therefore "the man will never keep to one bed." , but I don't believe she was ever turned on by Robert and this fact turned her off.

I find it very interesting, and telling, that Martin tells us she weepted when she listened Rhaegar performing a sad and beautiful song (which is a kind of connection), but nothing between her and Robert.

I don't even think we can conclude for sure that Lyanna even had a baby. We're assuming either of those scenarios took place. I've already talked about this, but the description of Lyanna lying in gore sounds a lot more violent to me than childbirth.

Well no, we can't conclude for sure about anything in this whole mystery. About Lyanna's cause of death I'm not so sure about it. I tend to think it's because of childbirth but I don't feel very strong about it either. It could be something more violent.

@All: I have a question, just out of curiosity.

The producers of the show said that Martin didn't confirm to them whether they were right or wrong about their theory on Jon's mother, but judging by his reaction they said they think it was the right answer. What's your opinion on this, do you think they did gave the right answer? The reason I'm asking is because they said we gave an answer which was "shocking", and I wouldn't call the theory of R+L=J as "shocking". :dunno:

[Alia of the knife]

My opinion (impression or feeling, I don't know which is more correct to use) is that she was never into Robert. She didn't knew him. Her father promised her hand to Robert Baratheon. She had heard that he had an illegitimate daughter, therefore "the man will never keep to one bed." , but I don't believe she was ever turned on by Robert and this fact turned her off.

I find it very interesting, and telling, that Martin tells us she weepted when she listened Rhaegar performing a sad and beautiful song (which is a kind of connection), but nothing between her and Robert.

Well no, we can't conclude for sure about anything in this whole mystery. About Lyanna's cause of death I'm not so sure about it. I tend to think it's because of childbirth but I don't feel very strong about it either. It could be something more violent.

@All: I have a question, just out of curiosity.

The producers of the show said that Martin didn't confirm to them whether they were right or wrong about their theory on Jon's mother, but judging by his reaction they said they think it was the right answer. What's your opinion on this, do you think they did gave the right answer? The reason I'm asking is because they said we gave an answer which was "shocking", and I wouldn't call the theory of R+L=J as "shocking". :dunno:

I think they gave the right answer. They wanted to do the show, specifically the "Red Wedding." Its not shocking to the hard core who sought out the information, but for the casual viewer who will not read the books, still shocking.

As to this past season, :stillsick: :bawl: I won't say anything other than suffice to say that I'm sticking to the books go forward.

[IceFire125]

@All: I have a question, just out of curiosity.

The producers of the show said that Martin didn't confirm to them whether they were right or wrong about their theory on Jon's mother, but judging by his reaction they said they think it was the right answer. What's your opinion on this, do you think they did gave the right answer? The reason I'm asking is because they said we gave an answer which was "shocking", and I wouldn't call the theory of R+L=J as "shocking". :dunno:

Don't take Dan Weiss' word seriously, he was making a dramatic joke about it being "shocking."

We got Benioff saying they got it correct in NYtimes, April 8, 2011 issue.

Recognizing that the novels couldn’t be condensed into films, Mr. Benioff and Mr. Weiss sought to adapt them as a television series for HBO, but had to pass several trials along the way. The first was winning over Mr. Martin in a lunchtime meeting that was mostly collegial, but where Mr. Weiss and Mr. Benioff were quizzed about the parents of Jon Snow, a “Game of Thrones” character of mysterious lineage. (“We had a whole conversation about it,” Mr. Benioff said, “and George was pleased that we got the answer right.”)

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/10/arts/television/game-of-thrones-on-hbo-from-george-r-r-martin-novels.html?_r=3&

[BearQueen87]

@All: I have a question, just out of curiosity.

The producers of the show said that Martin didn't confirm to them whether they were right or wrong about their theory on Jon's mother, but judging by his reaction they said they think it was the right answer. What's your opinion on this, do you think they did gave the right answer? The reason I'm asking is because they said we gave an answer which was "shocking", and I wouldn't call the theory of R+L=J as "shocking". :dunno:

Like IceFire said, they did get it right. But "shocking" is really subjective. Shocking to whom? To Unsullied? Yes. Shocking to those of us who have read the books and dissected every tiny little thing? Not so much

[Adaneth]

Like IceFire said, they did get it right. But "shocking" is really subjective. Shocking to whom? To Unsullied? Yes. Shocking to those of us who have read the books and dissected every tiny little thing? Not so much

My interpretation was "shocking" as in not so obvious for those who have read the books, since this was before the tv series, because I don't think they meant "shocking" for Martin.

Don't take Dan Weiss' word seriously, he was making a dramatic joke about it being "shocking."

We got Benioff saying they got it correct in NYtimes, April 8, 2011 issue.

Recognizing that the novels couldn’t be condensed into films, Mr. Benioff and Mr. Weiss sought to adapt them as a television series for HBO, but had to pass several trials along the way. The first was winning over Mr. Martin in a lunchtime meeting that was mostly collegial, but where Mr. Weiss and Mr. Benioff were quizzed about the parents of Jon Snow, a “Game of Thrones” character of mysterious lineage. (“We had a whole conversation about it,” Mr. Benioff said, “and George was pleased that we got the answer right.”)

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/10/arts/television/game-of-thrones-on-hbo-from-george-r-r-martin-novels.html?_r=3&

Thank you IceFire. I didn't know about this article. I only heard them once on youtube. They were with some of the actors and Martin but I can't remember the event.

You would like my nephew then. He just got back from Normandy and Cyprus for his Doctorate to teach history in College, specializing in WW2.

He's had several things published already on Patton.

Oh yes. I absolutely love everything about Normandy. :wub: A bit less the weather maybe. :DI've been there 4 times and each time visiting the places concerning WWII. The next trip though I'm planning to go there and visit the castles and places concerning William the Conqueror.

My hubby told me that he read on "Zerdnet" that at the end of the finale, you could see Jons eyes "lighten to purple," though with Kits eyes being brown, it was ever so subtle. :drool:

It doesn't seem to me. I've checked many times but it's dark and there is too much blue light in that scene. So if anything, shades of blue mor than purple.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

Don't take Dan Weiss' word seriously, he was making a dramatic joke about it being "shocking."

We got Benioff saying they got it correct in NYtimes, April 8, 2011 issue.

Recognizing that the novels couldnt be condensed into films, Mr. Benioff and Mr. Weiss sought to adapt them as a television series for HBO, but had to pass several trials along the way. The first was winning over Mr. Martin in a lunchtime meeting that was mostly collegial, but where Mr. Weiss and Mr. Benioff were quizzed about the parents of Jon Snow, a Game of Thrones character of mysterious lineage. (We had a whole conversation about it, Mr. Benioff said, and George was pleased that we got the answer right.)

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/10/arts/television/game-of-thrones-on-hbo-from-george-r-r-martin-novels.html?_r=3&

There are contradictory statements about that first interview. They first said that grrm only smiled in response to their answer about Jon's mother. The question that comes up about Jon is who is his mother.

I don't know why so many people believe Martin wrote Jon's parentage as a mystery in the books then gives the secret answer outside of the books.

[IceFire125]

There are contradictory statements about that first interview. They first said that grrm only smiled in response to their answer about Jon's mother. The question that comes up about Jon is who is his mother.

I don't know why so many people believe Martin wrote Jon's parentage as a mystery in the books then gives the secret answer outside of the books.

Stop reaching. This interview is done way before D&D described how it was with Martin when they said their answer on other media forums.

In fact, if tomorrow D&D say publicly, "Actually, Martin didn't really say anything, he just shook his head from side to side, giggle a little bit, and said 'okay', never really say that we got it right." You would believe it. Because in your head, the narrative theory of R+L=J, is wrong, you guys are very easy to predict. We went through the thick and thin slicing this theory, discussing its pros & cons, and how it relates to the overall arc and narrative of Martin's novels. It's the most accurate with all the hints, clues and foreshadowing, given to us. No other comes close.

[Sly Wren]

That is an interesting notion. Like for telling his battle against the WWs? See I think I'm an RLJ agnostic. I really want to believe, but it was the Eddard brothel chapter that kind of rained on that for me. Particularly when Ned's thinking about how Rhaegar wasn't one to frequent brothels- which to me implies he's not the guy who will take another wife or mistress.

Also, what Lord Varys said I could see more likely than a love story, especially with the bloody description of her death.

A big reason I think she died violently is from the chapter where Ned is talking to Arya and tells her how she has the wolf blood like Brandon and Lyanna, which led them to early graves. Brandon died violently because of his temper, I drew the same parallel with Lyanna.

1. On the brothels--fair enough. But there's also the statement re: Robert only loves/makes promises for a night, etc. And as Addicted to Snow stated earlier--can have bastards without brothel-frequenting. My big problem with figuring out Ned's take on Rhaegar is the incredibly limited info.

That being said, while I think Rhaegar is likeliest (I'm prejudiced and like the potential irony of Jon's being Targaryen and NOT king o' Westeros), I do think Arthur Dayne is still on the table. He's on the edge of the table with his legs dangling off the side, but technically on the table. So, maybe the brothel statement will have more weight later on.

2. Agree on Ned's statement re: wolfblood, but I can't see how that excludes a miserable death by childbirth. Especially if hot-bloodedness somehow got her with child. But agree with the violent imagery around Lyanna. Violence at her death is not off the table.

ETA: Fully agree re: Lord Varys' scenario being very workable.

So, you may be agnostic. I'm not really a believer one way or the other--just a reader. I like theories. I like options. Easy.

[Sly Wren]

And TBH, I think that "spooky" Starks might give the "weird" Targs. a run for their money. I've always wondered when Aegon the Conqueror landed if he didn't have his sorcerers with him who whispered in his to let Torren bend the knee, say the words and then bounce- quick?

They never seemed to back with the exception of Jahaerys.

HA! Yes--Targs did stay out of the North pretty consistently. Makes me wonder if Alysanne learned anything unsettling whilst flying her dragon to the Wall. No question Starks have plenty of weirdness, no matter how normal Ned seems.

[Adaneth]

I don't know why so many people believe Martin wrote Jon's parentage as a mystery in the books then gives the secret answer outside of the books.

He wouldn't give the secret answer outside the books. It was a private conversation and the producers didn't gave away their answer either. Martin also mentioned one person that got it right. I can't remember who was it (maybe from the publishing house?).

[The Twinslayer]

I've raised these same quotes in the last few months as I think they are well worth a reread. I think it is quite possible Ned thinks Jon is Rhaegar and Lyanna's bastard child. Assuming Ned reaches his sister as she lays dying, it would seem that the paramount question on her mind is the safety of her child, not communicating to her rebel brother that his nephew is trueborn. That has to be farther down the list of her worries. It wouldn't surprise me at all to learn Ned knows nothing about a marriage, even if it did occur.

Regarding a possible Rhaegar/Lyanna wedding, if it was important to Lyanna, I think she would have mentioned it to Ned. That means that either it didn't happen or Ned thinks any kind of polygamous marriage would be illegal/invalid.

If you add in the fact that we learned from Dance With Dragons, that Connington believes that Rhaegar only ever married Elia (and that it is only possible for Aegon to take one wife), then the most logical conclusion is that Rhaegar and Lyanna never went through such a ceremony.

[The Twinslayer]

There are contradictory statements about that first interview. They first said that grrm only smiled in response to their answer about Jon's mother. The question that comes up about Jon is who is his mother.

I don't know why so many people believe Martin wrote Jon's parentage as a mystery in the books then gives the secret answer outside of the books.

Yeah, and when the show producers say they got the right answer, that just means they passed the test.

GRRM wanted to know if they had read the books carefully, and whatever answer they gave was "right" in the sense that it showed that they had (or, that they had run a Google search for "who is Jon Snow's mother"). That does not mean that they correctly identified Jon's mother--just that they satisfied GRRM that they had picked up in the R+L=J clues (or red herrings, as the case may be).