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Ygrain

R+L=J v.146

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Reference guide

The R+L=J theory claims Jon Snow most probably is the son of crown prince Rhaegar Targaryen and Ned's sister Lyanna Stark.

The Tower of the Hand has an excellent analysis of this theory:
Jon Snow's Parents

And Westeros' Citadel also provides a summary:
Jon Snow's Parents

A Wiki of Ice and Fire:
Jon Snow Theories

Radio Westeros podcast:
A Dragon, a Wolf and a Rose

Frequently Asked Questions:

How can Jon be a Targaryen if ordinary fire burned his hand?
Targaryens are not immune to fire. It's a myth that has been refuted by a list of Targaryens being burned. Danaerys 'the unburnt' was indeed unscathed when she hatched the dragon eggs, but that has not stopped her being burned on other occasions. See this thread on Targaryen fire immunity.

Don't all Targaryens have hallmark Valryian silver-golden hair and purple eyes?
Not all of them: Valarr and Queen Alysanne had blue eyes. Bittersteel, who like Jon was half first men blood, had brown hair. Baelor Breakspear and his son(s) and Jon's own half-sister Rhaenys had the Dornish look (dark hair, black eyes, olive skin). Rhaenyra Targaryen's three sons all had brown hair and brown eyes even though both their parents had light silver-gold hair.
Had Jon Valyrian features, it would give his parentage away: "He had the Stark face if not the name: long, solemn, guarded, a face that gave nothing away. Whoever his mother had been, she had left little of herself in her son." Tyrion got the bit about the mother wrong, though: his mother was the Stark.

If Jon isn't Ned's son, then why does he look so much like him?
Jon looks very like Arya, and Arya looks very like Lyanna. Jon is Ned's nephew, and Lyanna and Ned looked similar.

Ned is too honourable to lie. If he says Jon is his son, doesn't that mean he must be?
Ned tells Arya that sometimes lies can be honourable. His final words, a confession of his guilt, are a lie to protect Sansa. While a lie can be honourable, cheating on his wife isn't, so Ned's famed honour points to Jon not being his son.

How can Jon be half-Targaryen and have a direwolf?
He's also half Stark, through Lyanna. Ned's trueborn children are half Tully and that doesn't stop them having direwolves.

Why doesn't Ned ever think about Lyanna being Jon's mother?
Ned doesn't think about anyone being Jon's mother. If he did, there would be no mystery. He names 'Wylla' to Robert, but we do not see him thinking of Wylla being Jon's mother.
There's a hidden hint at who Jon's mother might be: In chapter 4, Eddard's internal monologue goes "Lyanna ... Ned had loved her with all his heart." and in chapter 6, Catelyn thinks "Whoever Jon's mother had been, Ned must have loved her fiercely".

Why would Ned not at least tell Catelyn?
We don't have a list of what Ned promised to Lyanna, but know he takes his promises seriously. Maybe he promised not to tell anyone. In Chapter 45, Ned is uncertain what Cat would do if it came to Jon's life over that of her own children. If Catelyn knew that Jon was Rhaegar's son, she might feel that keeping him at Winterfell presented a serious risk to her own children. Ultimately, Catelyn did not need to know, so maybe Ned simply chose to be on the safe side.

Doesn't Ned refer to Robb and Jon as "my sons in the very first chapter?
In speech, not in thought. Ned is keeping Jon's parentage secret. He never thinks of Jon as his son: In Chapter 45, Ned thinks of his children "Robb and Sansa and Arya and Bran and Rickon and explicitly excludes Jon from the list. ADwD Chapter 34 has Bran's vision of younger Ned in the Winterfell godswood: "...let them grow up close as brothers, with only love between them," he prayed, "and let my lady wife find it in her heart to forgive..." which not make sense if they are brothers.

Since Rhaegar was already married, wouldn't Jon still be a bastard?
He might, or might not. There was a tradition of polygamy among Targaryens in the past, so the possibility that Rhaegar and Lyanna married is not easily ruled out. A pro-legitimacy argument is this: The presence of the three kingsguards at the Tower of Joy is best explained if they were defending the heir to the throne, which Jon would only be if he was legitimate.

Can we be certain polygamy is not illegal?
Aegon I and Maegor I practised polygamy. In Westeros, unlike a constitutional monarchy, royals are not subject to the law. So if there ever was a law against it, it did not apply to the Targaryens: In Chapter 33 it says "like their dragons the Targaryens answered to neither gods nor men". Examples demonstrate that it was considered an option for Targaryens: Aegon IV and Daemon Blackfyre may have considered it for Daemon, Jorah Mormont suggested it to Daenerys as a viable option, and she said the same about Quentyn Martell.
George R.R. Martin says in this SSM: "If you have a dragon, you can have as many wives as you want". There is also this SSM predating the worldbook.
On Polygamy essay by Ygrain with additions by Rhaenys_Targaryen

Weren't the Kingsguard at Tower of Joy on the basis of an order from Aerys, to guard Lyanna as a hostage?
If so, why would they have apparently made no effort to use this leverage against Robert and Ned? Some argue their Kingsguard vows would have taken precedence and still have required them to leave the Tower to protect Viserys when he became heir -- unless there was another that took precedence [Jon]. Others think they were guarding Lyanna as a hostage at the Tower of Joy. Some say that makes little sense: She would better be kept hostage at King's Landing, and wouldn't require kingsguards to guard her. The mere presence of three kingsguards implies something more important: guarding members of the royal family or maybe the heir.
Frequently suggested readings: At the tower of joy by MtnLion and support of the toj analysis by Ygrain

Isn't there an SSM that says the 3 Kingsguard were following Rhaegar's orders though?
The SSM you may be thinking of is probably this: The King's Guards don't get to make up their own orders. They serve the king, they protect the king and the royal family, but they're also bound to obey their orders, and if Prince Rhaegar gave them a certain order, they would do that. They can't say, "No we don't like that order, we'll do something else."
We know from Barristan, protecting the king is the first and most important of all kingsguard duties. Jamie suggests some other KG to stay with the king when he wants to leave for the Trident and we also learn of a ritual that is performed when all KG meet and the king is guarded by someone who is not from the order.
"Protect vs Obey" is an ongoing subject of debate that is unlikely to be settled until we know more. Either viewpoint is compatible with R+L=J.

Wouldn't Viserys take precedence anyway? Rhaegar died without becoming king, and doesn't the world book call Viserys, not Aegon, Aerys' new heir?
No, in the case of an eldest son dying before the king dies, a grandson comes before a younger son. Even in the case the grandson is yet unborn at the time of death, he would succeed (heir apparent vs. heir presumptive). The world book is written with a Lannister bias (it may be propaganda to undermine Dornish support for the Targaryens) and in hindsight by maesters who have never learned all of what we know from Ned's dreams and memories. If it still turns out to be true... see the next answer.

Are matters of succession just as clear as presented here?
Succession quarrels are a part of medieval power play and even a very clear inheritance could well be contested. So maybe in King's Landing things did happen as the world book says. Rhaegar and Aerys may have been at odds over the succession. Rhaegar told Jaime before leaving for the Trident that he intended to call a council, and The Great Councils of the past have dealt with matters of succession. Who would have accepted such a change is a question worth asking.

Ned is dead. Who's going to tell anyone about it?
Bloodraven and Bran may have learned of it through the weirwood network. Benjen might know. Checkov's Crannogman Howland Reed is the sole survivor of the encounter at the Tower of Joy, and George R.R. Martin has stated he has not yet appeared because he knows too much about the central mystery of the book. "They had found him [Ned] still holding her [Lyanna's] body" tells that there also was someone else besides Howland to find Ned.

Why is this important? What impact can it have on the story?
The careful way the mystery of Jon's parentage was created is reason to believe it's important. What impact it will have on the rest of the series is still unknown.

This theory is too obvious and too many people believe it to be fact. How can it be true?
It is not so obvious to the majority of readers. Some will get it on their first read, but most will not. Readers who go to online fan forums, such as this, still represent a very small minority of the readership. Also, A Game of Thrones has been out since 1996. That's more than 18 years of readers being able to piece together this mystery. Crowd-sourced internet-based mystery solving like this inevitably make solved mysteries seem more obvious in hindsight.

George R.R. Martin is a "breaker of tropes, there can be no hidden prince, it's simply too cliché.
In order to break a trope it needs to be installed in the first place. It is yet unknown what will happen to Jon in the future. Being the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar does not imply the fairy-tale style happy ending associated with the hidden prince trope.

Is there a list of all R+L=J clues that have been found?
There is a list of R+L=J hints, clues and foreshadowing compiled by sj4iy.

Since this theory has been refined so well, will Martin change the outcome of the story to surprise his fans?
He has stated that he won't change the outcome of the story just because some people have put together all the clues and solved the puzzle.

A thread for discussing strengths and weaknesses of the theory that Jon Snow's parents are Rhaegar and Lyanna.

Previous editions:
Please click on the spoiler below to reveal links to all previous editions of this thread


Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread (thread one)

Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread (thread two)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon thread (Part III) (thread three)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon thread (Part IV) (thread four)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread (Part V) (thread five)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread (Part VI) (thread six)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon Thread Part VII (thread seven)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon thread, Part VIII (thread eight)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon thread, Part IX (thread nine)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna =Jon Thread, Part X(thread ten)

The R+L=J thread, part XI (thread eleven)

The R+L=J thread, part XII (thread twelve)

R+L=J Part XXIII (thread thirteen)

R+L=J Part XXIV (thread fourteen)

R+L=J XXV (thread fifteen)

R+L=J v.16 (thread sixteen)

R+L=J v.17 (thread seventeen)

R+L=J v.18 (thread eighteen)

R+L=J v.19 (thread nineteen)

R+L=J v.20 (thread twenty)

R+L=J v.21 (thread twenty-one)

R+L=J v.22 (thread twenty-two)

R+L=J v.22a (thread twenty-two (a))

R+L=J v.23 (thread twenty-three)

R+L=J v.24 (thread twenty-four)

R+L=J v.25 (thread twenty-five)

R+L=J v.26 (thread twenty-six)

R+L=J v.27 (thread twenty-seven)

R+L=J v.28 (thread twenty-eight)

R+L=J v.29 (thread twenty-nine)

R+L=J v.30 (thread thirty)

R+L=J v.31 (thread thirty-one)

R+L=J v.32 (thread thirty-two)

R+L=J v.33 (thread thirty-three)

R+L=J v.34 (thread thirty-four)

R+L=J v.35 (thread thirty-five)

R+L=J v.36 (thread thirty-six)

R+L=J v.37 (thread thirty-seven)

R+L=J v.38 (thread thirty-eight)

R+L=J v.39 (thread thirty-nine)

"R+L=J v.40" (thread forty)

"R+L=J v.41" (thread forty-one)

"R+L=J v.42" (thread forty-two)

"R+L=J v.43" (thread forty-three)

"R+L=J v.44" (thread forty-four)

"R+L=J v.45" (thread forty-five)

"R+L=J v.46" (thread forty-six)

"R+L=J v.47" (thread forty-seven)

"R+L=J v.48" (thread forty-eight)

"R+L=J v.49" (thread forty-nine)

"R+L=J v.50" (thread fifty)

"R+L=J v.51" (thread fifty-one)

"R+L=J v.52" (thread fifty-two)

"R+L=J v.53" (thread fifty-three)

"R+L=J v.54" (thread fifty-four)

"R+L=J v.55" (thread fifty-five)

"R+L=J v.56" (thread fifty-six)

"R+L=J v.57" (thread fifty-seven)

"R+L=J v.58" (thread fifty-eight)

"R+L=J v.59" (thread fifty-nine)

"R+L=J v.60" (thread sixty)

"R+L=J v.61" (thread sixty-one)

"R+L=J v.62" (thread sixty-two)

"R+L=J v.63" (thread sixty-three)

"R+L=J v.64" (thread sixty-four)

"R+L=J v.65" (thread sixty-five)

"R+L=J v.66" (thread sixty-six)

"R+L=J v.67" (thread sixty-seven)

"R+L=J v.68" (thread sixty-eight)

"R+L=J v.69" (thread sixty-nine)

"R+L=J v.70" (thread seventy)

"R+L=J v.71" (thread seventy-one)

"R+L=J v.72" (thread seventy-two)

"R+L=J v.73" (thread seventy-three)

"R+L=J v.74" (thread seventy-four)

"R+L=J v.75" (thread seventy-five)

"R+L=J v.76" (thread seventy-six)

"R+L=J v.77" (thread seventy-seven)

"R+L=J v.78" (thread seventy-eight)

"R+L=J v.79" (thread seventy-nine)

"R+L=J v.80" (thread eighty)

"R+L=J v.81" (thread eighty-one)

"R+L=J v.82" (thread eighty-two)

"R+L=J v.83" (thread eighty-three)

"R+L=J v.84" (thread eighty-four)

"R+L=J v.85" (thread eighty-five)

"R+L=J v.86" (thread eighty-six)

"R+L=J v.87" (thread eighty-seven)

"R+L=J v.88" (thread eighty-eight)

"R+L=J v.89" (thread eighty-nine)

"R+L=J v.90" (thread ninety)

"R+L=J v.91" (thread ninety-one)

"R+L=J v.92" (thread ninety-two)

"R+L=J v.93" (thread ninety-three)

"R+L=J v.94" (thread ninety-four)

"R+L=J v.95" (thread ninety-five)

"R+L=J v.96" (thread ninety-six)

"R+L=J v.97" (thread ninety-seven)

"R+L=J v.98" (thread ninety-eight)

"R+L=J v.99" (thread ninety-nine)

"R+L=J v.100" (thread one hundred)

"R+L=J v.101" (thread one hundred one)

"R+L=J v.102" (thread one hundred two)

"R+L=J v.103" (thread one hundred three)

"R+L=J v.104" (thread one hundred four)

"R+L=J v.105" (thread one hundred five)

"R+L=J v.106" (thread one hundred six)

"R+L=J v.107" (thread one hundred seven)

"R+L=J v.108" (thread one hundred eight)

"R+L=J v.109" (thread one hundred nine)

"R+L=J v.110" (thread one hundred ten)

"R+L=J v.111" (thread one hundred eleven)

"R+L=J v.112" (thread one hundred twelve)

"R+L=J v.113" (thread one hundred thirteen)

"R+L=J v.114" (thread one hundred fourteen)

The "[TWoIaF Spoilers] R+L=J" threads were used to openly discuss spoilers from TWoIaF at the time we needed to protect that information.

"[TWoIaF Spoilers] R+L=J v.1"

"[TWoIaF Spoilers] R+L=J v.2"

"[TWoIaF Spoilers] R+L=J v.3"


"R+L=J v.115" (thread one hundred fifteen)

"R+L=J v.116" (thread one hundred sixteen)

"R+L=J v.117" (thread one hundred seventeen)

"R+L=J v.118" (thread one hundred eighteen)

"R+L=J v.119" (thread one hundred nineteen)

"R+L=J v.120" (thread one hundred twenty)

"R+L=J v.121" (thread one hundred twenty one)

"R+L=J v.122" (thread one hundred twenty two)

"R+L=J v.123" (thread one hundred twenty three)

"R+L=J v.124" (thread one hundred twenty four)

"R+L=J v.125" (thread one hundred twenty five)

"R+L=J v.126" (thread one hundred twenty six)

"R+L=J v.127" (thread one hundred twenty seven)

"R+L=J v.128" (thread one hundred twenty eight)

"R+L=J v.129" (thread one hundred twenty nine)

"R+L=J v. 130" (thread one hundred thirty)

"R+L=J v.131" (thread one hundred thirty one)

"R+L=J v.132" (thread one hundred thirty two)


"R+L=J v.133" (thread one hundred thirty three)

"R+L=J v.134" (thread one hundred thirty four)

"R+L=J v.135" (thread one hundred thirty five)

"R+L=J v.136" (thread one hundred thirty six)

"R+L=J v.137" (thread one hundred thirty seven)

"R+L=J v.138"(thread one hundred thirty eight)

"R+L=J v.139" (thread one hundred thirty nine)

"R+L=J v.140" (thread one hundred forty)

"R+L=J v.141" (thread one hundred forty one)

"R+L=J v.142" (thread one hundred forty two)

"R+L=J v.143" (thread one hundred forty three)

"R+L=J v. 144" (thread one hundred forty four)

"R+L=J v.145" (thread one hundred forty five)

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Yet




It might indeed still be revealed, but until then, I think it is important to keep distinguishing between what is in the text, and what is generally (or personally) concluded from that.




On a slightly different topic, there are quite a few people who believe that Jon is trueborn, if I'm not mistaken.. I was wondering, how are these two passages supposed to be taken, in that case?



[Ned has just finished meeting Barra and her mother]


Good to you, Ned thought hollowly. “I will tell him, child, and I promise you, Barra shall not go wanting.”


She had smiled then, a smile so tremulous and sweet that it cut the heart out of him. Riding through the rainy night, Ned saw Jon Snow’s face in front of him, so like a younger version of his own. If the gods frowned so on bastards, he thought dully, why did they fill men with such lusts?


I'm not sure what to make of this, so I'm posting it here.. If Jon truly is trueborn, the transition from Jon to bastards is a bit strange, no?

Perhaps someone has a logical explanation?

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Wow, that was fast :-)

It might indeed still be revealed, but until then, I think it is important to keep distinguishing between what is in the text, and what is generally (or personally) concluded from that.

On a slightly different topic, there are quite a few people who believe that Jon is trueborn, if I'm not mistaken.. I was wondering, how are these two passages supposed to be taken, in that case?

[Ned has just finished meeting Barra and her mother]

Good to you, Ned thought hollowly. “I will tell him, child, and I promise you, Barra shall not go wanting.”

She had smiled then, a smile so tremulous and sweet that it cut the heart out of him. Riding through the rainy night, Ned saw Jon Snow’s face in front of him, so like a younger version of his own. If the gods frowned so on bastards, he thought dully, why did they fill men with such lusts?
I'm not sure what to make of this, so I'm posting it here.. If Jon truly is trueborn, the transition from Jon to bastards is a bit strange, no?
Perhaps someone has a logical explanation?

Barra is a bastard, Jon is condemned to the life of one, and the following line of thought is: “Lord Baelish, what do you know of Robert’s bastards?”

I just finished a dance of dragons.

RLJ is exactly what I was thinking!

:cheers:

Welcome to the forums!

From the previous thread, on romances turning dark:

Prince Rhaegar loved his Lady Lyanna, and thousands died for it. - ADWD, Selmy

Ned Stark reached out his hand to grasp the flowery crown, but beneath the pale blue petals the thorns lay hidden. He felt them clawing at his skin, sharp and cruel, saw the slow trickle of blood run down his fingers, and woke, trembling, in the dark.
And what do we have right below a romance turned dark?
Promise me, Ned, his sister had whispered from her bed of blood. She had loved the scent of winter roses.

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Hi, have watched this board, but too shy to post. I love love story of Lyanna and Raegar. Please excuse my bad English, I practice not very much. Enjoy books very much, and excited to learn more your theories. I see new people post before old thread, and felt brave to try :)

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It might indeed still be revealed, but until then, I think it is important to keep distinguishing between what is in the text, and what is generally (or personally) concluded from that.

On a slightly different topic, there are quite a few people who believe that Jon is trueborn, if I'm not mistaken.. I was wondering, how are these two passages supposed to be taken, in that case?

[Ned has just finished meeting Barra and her mother]

Good to you, Ned thought hollowly. “I will tell him, child, and I promise you, Barra shall not go wanting.”

She had smiled then, a smile so tremulous and sweet that it cut the heart out of him. Riding through the rainy night, Ned saw Jon Snow’s face in front of him, so like a younger version of his own. If the gods frowned so on bastards, he thought dully, why did they fill men with such lusts?

I'm not sure what to make of this, so I'm posting it here.. If Jon truly is trueborn, the transition from Jon to bastards is a bit strange, no?

Perhaps someone has a logical explanation?

I've raised these same quotes in the last few months as I think they are well worth a reread. I think it is quite possible Ned thinks Jon is Rhaegar and Lyanna's bastard child. Assuming Ned reaches his sister as she lays dying, it would seem that the paramount question on her mind is the safety of her child, not communicating to her rebel brother that his nephew is trueborn. That has to be farther down the list of her worries. It wouldn't surprise me at all to learn Ned knows nothing about a marriage, even if it did occur.

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Welcome to the boards :)

From you nickname I'd guess we could share quite a bit of common roots?

Italian origins? :)

Caterina is such an underrated historical figure btw... and for those who think Lyanna was a way too young when she 'eloped' with Rhaegar, well, Caterina married Girolamo Riario (aged 30) at the tender age of 10 :stunned: And yet she was one the toughest, strongest and most influential figure of Italian Renaissance.

Exactly! :)

p.s. I agree with you, Caterina is quite an underrated historical figure. She's without any doubt, one of history's most amazing women. A Tigress indeed. ;)

My childhood neighbors were Greek, my former boss and still friend is Italian and Chilean, and my husband is of Czech roots, so I bet your English is just fine. :)

Thank you Alia. :) Reading in english helps a lot. Writing though it's a bit more difficult but I'll try do my best. ^_^

By the way, I remember reading some of your comments regarding women warriors in history and folklore. I had the feeling that you're quite knowledgeable on the subject. Is there any off-topic thread here about these stories?

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I've raised these same quotes in the last few months as I think they are well worth a reread. I think it is quite possible Ned thinks Jon is Rhaegar and Lyanna's bastard child. Assuming Ned reaches his sister as she lays dying, it would seem that the paramount question on her mind is the safety of her child, not communicating to her rebel brother that his nephew is trueborn. That has to be farther down the list of her worries. It wouldn't surprise me at all to learn Ned knows nothing about a marriage, even if it did occur.

It is not impossible, but then it is not clear why Robert bashing Rhaegar's honour evokes the memory of Promise me, which I have always read as Ned knowing that Rhaegar didn't treat Lyanna dishonourably. Also, it breaks the line of thought in the comparison between Robert and Rhaegar - Robert frequented brothels, Rhaegar didn't. Robert fathered bastards, Rhaegar... If both fathered bastards, and Rhaegar on Ned's own sister on top of it, I'm not sure if the contrast between the two quite works.

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It might indeed still be revealed, but until then, I think it is important to keep distinguishing between what is in the text, and what is generally (or personally) concluded from that.

On a slightly different topic, there are quite a few people who believe that Jon is trueborn, if I'm not mistaken.. I was wondering, how are these two passages supposed to be taken, in that case?

[Ned has just finished meeting Barra and her mother]

Good to you, Ned thought hollowly. “I will tell him, child, and I promise you, Barra shall not go wanting.”

She had smiled then, a smile so tremulous and sweet that it cut the heart out of him. Riding through the rainy night, Ned saw Jon Snow’s face in front of him, so like a younger version of his own. If the gods frowned so on bastards, he thought dully, why did they fill men with such lusts?

I'm not sure what to make of this, so I'm posting it here.. If Jon truly is trueborn, the transition from Jon to bastards is a bit strange, no?

Perhaps someone has a logical explanation?

While with Ygritte, Jon continued to have guilt and doubt, inside his head he's breaking his NW vows, just I conclude Rhaegar also did.

Ygritte kissed his ears or bit his neck, he could not hear it at all. Was this how it was for my father? he wondered. Was he as weak as I am, when he dishonored himself in my mother’s bed?

His guilt came back afterward, but weaker than before. If this is so wrong, he wondered, why did the gods make it feel so good?

This was a big clue to me, the pledging (swearing a vow) to 'Lady Stark'. In Jon's thoughts it's the Father he only knows, Ned, but to the careful reader, it's his true Father, Rhaegar to a Lady Stark, named, Lyanna.

Ygritte was much in his thoughts as well. He remembered the smell of her hair, the warmth of her body … and the look on her face as she slit the old man’s throat. You were wrong to love her, a voice whispered. You were wrong to leave her, a different voice insisted. He wondered if his father had been torn the same way, when he’d left Jon’s mother to return to Lady Catelyn. He was pledged to Lady Stark, and I am pledged to the Night’s Watch.

**Martin italicized it to further the point of importance.

So yes, Jon is trueborn.

Why aren’t you down in the yard?” Arya asked him.

He gave her a half smile. “Bastards are not allowed to damage young princes,” he said. “Any bruises they take in the practice yard must come from trueborn swords.”

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It might indeed still be revealed, but until then, I think it is important to keep distinguishing between what is in the text, and what is generally (or personally) concluded from that.

On a slightly different topic, there are quite a few people who believe that Jon is trueborn, if I'm not mistaken.. I was wondering, how are these two passages supposed to be taken, in that case?

[Ned has just finished meeting Barra and her mother]

Good to you, Ned thought hollowly. “I will tell him, child, and I promise you, Barra shall not go wanting.”

She had smiled then, a smile so tremulous and sweet that it cut the heart out of him. Riding through the rainy night, Ned saw Jon Snow’s face in front of him, so like a younger version of his own. If the gods frowned so on bastards, he thought dully, why did they fill men with such lusts?

I'm not sure what to make of this, so I'm posting it here.. If Jon truly is trueborn, the transition from Jon to bastards is a bit strange, no?

Perhaps someone has a logical explanation?

Trying to tie the bastard to anything other than Jon requires some gymnastics.

First you go back to Robert's bastard Barra---- Voila--- Ned was thinking of that bastard

Then you end up with a bastard made Ned think of Jon---- back to square one

Now you leap---- Jon Snow's face so much like a younger version of his own-- does not mean that at all.

It REALLY means Jon's life as a bastard--- voila? All you need is some white out and a pencil and it fits like a glove.

Logical explanation..... Ned thinks Jon is a bastard.

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It is not impossible, but then it is not clear why Robert bashing Rhaegar's honour evokes the memory of Promise me, which I have always read as Ned knowing that Rhaegar didn't treat Lyanna dishonourably. Also, it breaks the line of thought in the comparison between Robert and Rhaegar - Robert frequented brothels, Rhaegar didn't. Robert fathered bastards, Rhaegar... If both fathered bastards, and Rhaegar on Ned's own sister on top of it, I'm not sure if the contrast between the two quite works.

Frequenting brothels does not always equal fathering bastards.. Perhaps a line of thought of Robert quickly forgetting about each of his children (out of sight, out of hearth), whereas Rhaegar was willing to provide for the child (possibly due to the presence of the Kingsguard)?

While with Ygritte, Jon continued to have guilt and doubt, inside his head he's breaking his NW vows, just I conclude Rhaegar also did.

Ygritte kissed his ears or bit his neck, he could not hear it at all. Was this how it was for my father? he wondered. Was he as weak as I am, when he dishonored himself in my mother’s bed?

His guilt came back afterward, but weaker than before. If this is so wrong, he wondered, why did the gods make it feel so good?

This was a big clue to me, the pledging (swearing a vow) to 'Lady Stark'. In Jon's thoughts it's the Father he only knows, Ned, but to the careful reader, it's his true Father, Rhaegar to a Lady Stark, named, Lyanna.

Ygritte was much in his thoughts as well. He remembered the smell of her hair, the warmth of her body … and the look on her face as she slit the old man’s throat. You were wrong to love her, a voice whispered. You were wrong to leave her, a different voice insisted. He wondered if his father had been torn the same way, when he’d left Jon’s mother to return to Lady Catelyn. He was pledged to Lady Stark, and I am pledged to the Night’s Watch.

**Martin italicized it to further the point of importance.

So yes, Jon is trueborn.

Convincing.. But then why thinking about bastards so quickly after visiting Jon?

I've raised these same quotes in the last few months as I think they are well worth a reread. I think it is quite possible Ned thinks Jon is Rhaegar and Lyanna's bastard child. Assuming Ned reaches his sister as she lays dying, it would seem that the paramount question on her mind is the safety of her child, not communicating to her rebel brother that his nephew is trueborn. That has to be farther down the list of her worries. It wouldn't surprise me at all to learn Ned knows nothing about a marriage, even if it did occur.

That could also be the case.. That we got all the info from Ned's POVs to connect Rhaegar and Lyanna and Jon together, and are still to receive information to confirm or deny whether he is trueborn or not..

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While with Ygritte, Jon continued to have guilt and doubt, inside his head he's breaking his NW vows, just I conclude Rhaegar also did.

Ygritte kissed his ears or bit his neck, he could not hear it at all. Was this how it was for my father? he wondered. Was he as weak as I am, when he dishonored himself in my mother’s bed?

His guilt came back afterward, but weaker than before. If this is so wrong, he wondered, why did the gods make it feel so good?

This was a big clue to me, the pledging (swearing a vow) to 'Lady Stark'. In Jon's thoughts it's the Father he only knows, Ned, but to the careful reader, it's his true Father, Rhaegar to a Lady Stark, named, Lyanna.

Ygritte was much in his thoughts as well. He remembered the smell of her hair, the warmth of her body … and the look on her face as she slit the old man’s throat. You were wrong to love her, a voice whispered. You were wrong to leave her, a different voice insisted. He wondered if his father had been torn the same way, when he’d left Jon’s mother to return to Lady Catelyn. He was pledged to Lady Stark, and I am pledged to the Night’s Watch.

**Martin italicized it to further the point of importance.

So yes, Jon is trueborn.

Why aren’t you down in the yard?” Arya asked him.

He gave her a half smile. “Bastards are not allowed to damage young princes,” he said. “Any bruises they take in the practice yard must come from trueborn swords.”

Cannot see how this is proof of anything other than Jon's struggle to come to terms with his own actions and feelings towards Ygritte and his ideas and feelings about his father about his de facto father (Ned)--in short, Jon's psychological development and growing up.

You start the post with assumptions, not conclusions, about Rhaegar's guilt and doubt and then superimpose those assumptions onto Jon's narrative.

I don't assert that Rhaegar could NOT have felt all sorts of things--about Lyanna, about Elia, about anyone else--but the excerpts you quote aren't evidence of that. And they certainly don't prove Jon's legitimacy.

If anything, the quote Rhaenys_Targaryen gives above is evidence of Jon's being a bastard--and thought of as such by Ned.

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Cannot see how this is proof of anything other than Jon's struggle to come to terms with his own actions and feelings towards Ygritte and his ideas and feelings about his father about his de facto father (Ned)--in short, Jon's psychological development and growing up.

You start the post with assumptions, not conclusions, about Rhaegar's guilt and doubt and then superimpose those assumptions onto Jon's narrative.

I don't assert that Rhaegar could NOT have felt all sorts of things--about Lyanna, about Elia, about anyone else--but the excerpts you quote aren't evidence of that. And they certainly don't prove Jon's legitimacy.

If anything, the quote Rhaenys_Targaryen gives above is evidence of Jon's being a bastard--and thought of as such by Ned.

I thought Rheagar and Lady Lyanna married before Jon?

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It seems convenient to oppose individual posts based solely upon what is in the post. The truth is that here is a mountain of evidence to support what IceFire125 said. What he posted further supports the linked information. Please do take time to read the linked information, as it will help you understand what is being discussed.


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If anything, the quote Rhaenys_Targaryen gives above is evidence of Jon's being a bastard--and thought of as such by Ned.

Which is why I was asking for a logical explanation. Because we also have this:

Why aren’t you down in the yard?” Arya asked him.

He gave her a half smile. “Bastards are not allowed to damage young princes,” he said. “Any bruises they take in the practice yard must come from trueborn swords.”

Jon wasn't allowed to fight against Joffrey, as bastards are not allowed to damage young princes.. Joffrey is a bastard, we know.. Which would make this a hint that Jon is a prince (and thus trueborn?)..?

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I thought Rheagar and Lady Lyanna married before Jon?

We don't know that. We really don't. Not just using the text, anyway. It is a possibility, but it's not proven with the text. And it is not necessary for them to have been married to still think RLJ is the strongest theory--as I do.

It seems convenient to oppose individual posts based solely upon what is in the post. The truth is that here is a mountain of evidence to support what IceFire125 said. What he posted further supports the linked information. Please do take time to read the linked information, as it will help you understand what is being discussed.

I apologize if I am presuming that this post was also meant to include me. But I have read the evidence you reference--I agree it is suggestive, but it is not conclusive. Text has too many holes for any story around RLJ to be set at present. And RLJ can be so with or without a lot of the scenarios we readers use to fill the gaps in the text. Lots of ways for it to work.

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Which is why I was asking for a logical explanation. Because we also have this:

Jon wasn't allowed to fight against Joffrey, as bastards are not allowed to damage young princes.. Joffrey is a bastard, we know.. Which would make this a hint that Jon is a prince (and thus trueborn?)..?

Maybe--but would need a lot more in context to make it work. Seems more like irony re: Joffrey than evidence re: Jon.

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We don't know that. We really don't. Not just using the text, anyway. It is a possibility, but it's not proven with the text. And it is not necessary for them to have been married to still think RLJ is the strongest theory--as I do.

.

I think not, Ice Fire proofed from last thread they pledged, and OP is clear polygamy has precedence which it's legal in Westeros.

He provides canon at end of post.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/131377-rlj-v145/?p=7149978

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Also, this was recently asked in Small Questions, and no one seems to have known an answer (no one answered), but I thought that perhaps, it might fit here as well, seeing as the passage in question is discussed so often here:







Not a small question, but why do you think The Ned's six buds in his dream about the Tower of Joy were but shadows while the faces of the three men of the Kingsguard "burned clear?"





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I think not, Ice Fire proofed from last thread they pledged, and OP is clear polygamy has precedence which it's legal in Westeros.

He provides canon at end of post.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/131377-rlj-v145/?p=7149978

1. The IceFire post on last thread--as I argued on last thread--is not evidence of R and L's being pledged. It just isn't. It's at best suggestive. Much more about Jon's coming to terms with growing up and his relationship with Ned.

2. Yes, OP points out that polygamy has been legal in Westeros--as Martin quips, pretty much anything can be legal when you've got a dragon. But that doesn't mean R and L were married. They could have been, but the fact that it was legal at some point doesn't in any way prove R and L availed themselves of the option. At best, it means they might have.

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