Jump to content

R+L=J v.146


Ygrain

Recommended Posts

You are going to fit right in over here! Glad my arguments brought you some laughs.

You brought no argument at all. You replied to me saying: Jon's look is a problem because he doesn't look like a Targ. I replied, the looks doesn't mean anything because not all Targs looks the same and Jon would be a half Stark also. Therefore maybe he took from his mother. Your answer to that was: Oh so because he doesn't look like a Targ he is a Targ? Where did I said that?!

I brought you my arguments, replying to each of your points. Is this all you have to say?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

My don't like these weasel pies

I tell you secret you ask nice

Jon has parentage with Rhaegar n Lyana

Oh, Weasel Pie is another user here, he can be quite pleasant once you get to know him. I don't think I'd like actual weasel pies either.

So tell me, LCR, what is this secret you have for me? :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I see you are RLJ doubting Thomas. Jon needed milks from nursing and his mother was already died. How can Lady Lyanna feed her baby? The baby Jon was borned in this Tower which is closest to Dorne. The Lady Ashara was once Ned's girlfriends so he seeks her for helps for finding milk maid for Jon who is Wylla. Robert is Ned's friend and so he won't get suspicions, Ned needs for Wylla to be Jon's mother.

True. Jon would have needed milk. And if his mother died in the tower of joy, and he was with her, that would have been Ned's first priority (rather than personally pulling down the tower and using the rubble to make cairns for the fallen).

The tower is in Dorne, we agree, and on the way to Starfall, where much more suitable accommodations might be found for an expectant noble lady.

We know Ashara fell in love with Ned, but we don't know Ned fell in love with Ashara. We do agree that Wylla was said to be Jon's mother though, by both Eddard and Edric (Stark+Dayne=J).

Ned is strong for the tower pulley because of his built. Recall the Starks have magics from wolf blood in them too. This was also how the Lady Lyanna hurted all the Knights when she was kotlt. Raegar seen this rare magics in her and he loved her because he knew that his fire magics with her wolf magic would make a third dragon head Magic as was the prophecy.

This made me laugh, at first... Then, I realized you are perhaps the only person here to answer my question using information found solely within canon. Mayhaps The Ned was overcome with rage, found his inner wolf, and tore down the tower with his kingly Arms of the North. It certainly sounds more plausible than a round, stone tower having a wooden support system.

I can't speak to what Rhaegar saw in Lyanna, or if he actually loved her, but we do know he was a family man - a husband to Elia Martell and a father to two true-born children by her. It seems unlikely to me that Lyanna would willingly become a home-wrecker, but that's just me.

Unless... (humor me for a minute)

What if Lyanna was working in a brothel? Mayhaps this is why Ned was reminded of his sister when he visited the brothel in KL. Mayhaps Rhaegard didn't "frequent" the brothels, but did visit once or twice to pay a visit to the winter rose...

Now, many here will call that idea crackpot, or trollish, but in truth, it is just as out of character for Lyanna as developing a romantic relationship with a married man.

The Starks were not like other men.

Might the Stark women not have been like other women?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

But of course it does, and it has little to do with the timeline. First and foremost, having premarital sex, impregnating the woman and not marrying her ASAP to do right by her is totally and completely out of character for Ned. So is taking the baby away from his mother, so is hurting him by keeping his mother's identity from him, so is not giving Ashara a single thought. The closest it might get to admitting some guilt is a mention of old guilts on the way back from the brothel, but even here, he thinks only about Lyanna, and Rhaegar.

And what I am saying is that regardless of the timeline issues, the characterisation of Ned safely rules her out :-

To the premarital sex, not marrying the woman ASAP, etc. It is actually perfectly within the character of Ned to have done so, because that is exactly what we are told he did. We are also told this was a one time thing for the honorable Ned Stark, but nonetheless he did just so this time.

As to taking the child from Ashara, just how would have Ned done that from Starfall? What we know of Ned's trip there has him alone with the possible exception of Howland Reed. If the Daynes want this child to stay, they have the swords to make Ned leave the child. If Ned takes the child he does so with the Dayne's ok, and, if Ashara is alive at the time, with her ok as well. Within Ned's character? I think so.

If Ashara is Jon's mother there are reasons for Ned to keep the information to himself. Consorting with an enemy secretly during the rebellion without telling Robert or Jon or Hoster anything about it would open up Ned to possible charges of treason. Especially as we know he lied to Robert about Jon's mother's identity if this is the case. Might be a reason to not tell either Catelyn or Jon.

Lastly, because we don't read Ned thinking of Ashara doesn't mean he never did. Absence of evidence is not evidence.

So, I think we can say we disagree on the characterization of Ned rules out Ashara as Jon's mother. Don't get me wrong, Ygrain. I think the preponderance of evidence points to Jon being Rhaegar and Lyanna's child. But ruling out Ashara, or Wylla, or the Fisherman's daughter based on Ned's characterization is something I'm not ready to do.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It wasn’t fair. Sansa had everything. Sansa was two years older; maybe by the time Arya had been born, there had been nothing left. Often it felt that way. Sansa could sew and dance and sing. She wrote poetry. She knew how to dress. She played the high harp and the bells. Worse, she was beautiful. Sansa had gotten their mother’s fine high cheekbones and the thick auburn hair of the Tullys. Arya took after their lord father. Her hair was a lusterless brown, and her face was long and solemn. Jeyne used to call her Arya Horseface, and neigh whenever she came near. It hurt that the one thing Arya could do better than her sister was ride a horse. Well, that and manage a household. Sansa had never had much of a head for figures. If she did marry Prince Joff, Arya hoped for his sake that he had a good steward.

“The deserter died bravely,” Robb said. He was big and broad and growing every day, with his mother’s coloring, the fair skin, red-brown hair, and blue eyes of the Tullys of Riverrun. “He had courage, at the least.”

“No,” Jon Snow said quietly. “It was not courage. This one was dead of fear. You could see it in his eyes, Stark.” Jon’s eyes were a grey so dark they seemed almost black, but there was little they did not see. He was of an age with Robb, but they did not look alike. Jon was slender where Robb was muscular, dark where Robb was fair, graceful and quick where his half brother was strong and fast.

“A shade more fun than needlework,” Arya gave back at him. Jon grinned, reached over, and messed up her hair. Arya flushed. They had always been close. Jon had their father’s face, as she did. They were the only ones. Robb and Sansa and Bran and even little Rickon all took after the Tullys, with easy smiles and fire in their hair. When Arya had been little, she had been afraid that meant that she was a bastard too. It been Jon she had gone to in her fear, and Jon who had reassured her.

Arya’s eyes went wide. Dark eyes, like his. “A sword,” she said in a small, hushed breath.

Sansa could never understand how two sisters, born only two years apart, could be so different. It would have been easier if Arya had been a bastard, like their half brother Jon. She even looked like Jon, with the long face and brown hair of the Starks, and nothing of their lady mother in her face or her coloring. And Jon’s mother had been common, or so people whispered. Once, when she was littler, Sansa had even asked Mother if perhaps there hadn’t been some mistake. Perhaps the grumkins had stolen her real sister. But Mother had only laughed and said no, Arya was her daughter and Sansa’s trueborn sister, blood of their blood. Sansa could not think why Mother would want to lie about it, so she supposed it had to be true.

They have the brown hair and long face that all Stark looking people have. But when it comes to specific unique details, the only thing is their eye colour. But even that isn't specific, seeing as Ned himself has dark grey eyes, and grey eyes seem to be a general Stark feature as well as Jon, Ned, Arya, Benjen, and Brandon all have grey eyes. Other than that, there's nothing saying that the two actually look like each other in the way that RLJ presents (that Jon and Arya look the same, and Arya looks like Lyanna, so therefore Jon looks like Lyanna). There's nothing saying that they look the same, except for the specific darkness of their eyes. Everything else is just the general Stark features. Which would be the same features that Robb or Sansa or any of Ned's other children would have had if they'd inherited it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

To the premarital sex, not marrying the woman ASAP, etc. It is actually perfectly within the character of Ned to have done so, because that is exactly what we are told he did. We are also told this was a one time thing for the honorable Ned Stark, but nonetheless he did just so this time.

As to taking the child from Ashara, just how would have Ned done that from Starfall? What we know of Ned's trip there has him alone with the possible exception of Howland Reed. If the Daynes want this child to stay, they have the swords to make Ned leave the child. If Ned takes the child he does so with the Dayne's ok, and, if Ashara is alive at the time, with her ok as well. Within Ned's character? I think so.

If Ashara is Jon's mother there are reasons for Ned to keep the information to himself. Consorting with an enemy secretly during the rebellion without telling Robert or Jon or Hoster anything about it would open up Ned to possible charges of treason. Especially as we know he lied to Robert about Jon's mother's identity if this is the case. Might be a reason to not tell either Catelyn or Jon.

Lastly, because we don't read Ned thinking of Ashara doesn't mean he never did. Absence of evidence is not evidence.

So, I think we can say we disagree on the characterization of Ned rules out Ashara as Jon's mother. Don't get me wrong, Ygrain. I think the preponderance of evidence points to Jon being Rhaegar and Lyanna's child. But ruling out Ashara, or Wylla, or the Fisherman's daughter based on Ned's characterization is something I'm not ready to do.

Er... I'm not talking about what we are told. I'm talking about being in the man's head, seeing his values and integrity. He would not have done such a thing, despite all those people happily believing that he did. People like to believe that the honourable ones slip just like everyone else.

And, him never thinking about anything that might even distantly be related to Ashara is a clue because that would be cheating the reader. He thinks, albeit in puzzling disconnected bits, about a great deal of things that need to be figured out. If Ashara was one such secret, there would have to be similar hints.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

To the premarital sex, not marrying the woman ASAP, etc. It is actually perfectly within the character of Ned to have done so, because that is exactly what we are told he did. We are also told this was a one time thing for the honorable Ned Stark, but nonetheless he did just so this time.

As to taking the child from Ashara, just how would have Ned done that from Starfall? What we know of Ned's trip there has him alone with the possible exception of Howland Reed. If the Daynes want this child to stay, they have the swords to make Ned leave the child. If Ned takes the child he does so with the Dayne's ok, and, if Ashara is alive at the time, with her ok as well. Within Ned's character? I think so.

If Ashara is Jon's mother there are reasons for Ned to keep the information to himself. Consorting with an enemy secretly during the rebellion without telling Robert or Jon or Hoster anything about it would open up Ned to possible charges of treason. Especially as we know he lied to Robert about Jon's mother's identity if this is the case. Might be a reason to not tell either Catelyn or Jon.

Lastly, because we don't read Ned thinking of Ashara doesn't mean he never did. Absence of evidence is not evidence.

So, I think we can say we disagree on the characterization of Ned rules out Ashara as Jon's mother. Don't get me wrong, Ygrain. I think the preponderance of evidence points to Jon being Rhaegar and Lyanna's child. But ruling out Ashara, or Wylla, or the Fisherman's daughter based on Ned's characterization is something I'm not ready to do.

Very well said.

They have the brown hair and long face that all Stark looking people have. But when it comes to specific unique details, the only thing is their eye colour. But even that isn't specific, seeing as Ned himself has dark grey eyes, and grey eyes seem to be a general Stark feature as well as Jon, Ned, Arya, Benjen, and Brandon all have grey eyes. Other than that, there's nothing saying that the two actually look like each other in the way that RLJ presents (that Jon and Arya look the same, and Arya looks like Lyanna, so therefore Jon looks like Lyanna). There's nothing saying that they look the same, except for the specific darkness of their eyes. Everything else is just the general Stark features. Which would be the same features that Robb or Sansa or any of Ned's other children would have had if they'd inherited it.

Arya is proof that a Stark can look like a Stark without being Lyanna's offspring. What's interesting is that the Stark-look doesn't seem to be all that strong of a trait. If a Tully could influence the look so drastically, why not a Targaryen? Strange.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Okay, so Jon's identity is based on the looks. Fine.


He looks like a Stark. That much we know. However, since Jon's mother left so little of herself in how Jon's looks (because he appears so strongly a Stark), we are to conclude that Ned had an affair with an alien woman. Maybe a white walkers woman? Why not? ^_^ Or maybe he had a secret affair with Lyanna, thus all those nightmares and price he paid. ;)


The Bold and the Beautiful. :wub:


Link to comment
Share on other sites

Okay, so Jon's identity is based on the looks. Fine.

He looks like a Stark. That much we know. However, since Jon's mother left so little of herself in how Jon's looks (because he appears so strongly a Stark), we are to conclude that Ned had an affair with an alien woman. Maybe a white walkers woman? Why not? ^_^ Or maybe he had a secret affair with Lyanna, thus all those nightmares and price he paid. ;)

The Bold and the Beautiful. :wub:

I provided you with an argument and now you're mocking me again.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Also, in the brothel chapter, Ned is thinking about Rhaegar, and mentions he hasn't thought of him in years.

Yes, but no. Because Ned was such a honourable person, he was able to fool you. Let me explain. You refer to this:

For the first time in years, he found himself remembering Rhaegar Targaryen.

early in chapter 35 Eddard IX

...but don't forget, already earliest possible in the book he is made to remember him. And he actually thinks of him all the time, or to be correct: in most of his own chapters. I show it here:

The king touched her cheek, his fingers brushing across the rough stone as gently as if it were living flesh. "I vowed to kill Rhaegar for what he did to her."

early in chapter 04 Eddard I (and ensuite Ned remembers:)

When Ned had finally come on the scene, Rhaegar lay dead in the stream, [...]

and early in the following Eddard chapter:

He remembered the angry words they had exchanged when Tywin Lannister had presented Robert with the corpses of Rhaegar's wife and children as a token of fealty. Ned had named that murder [...]

It was said that Rhaegar's little girl had cried[...]

early in chapter 12 Eddard II (and next to that Robert makes sure Ned won't forget:)

And Rhaegar . . . how many times do you think he raped your sister?

Ned later in the chapter, telling Robert:

"You took a wound from Rhaegar," Ned reminded him. "So when the Targaryen host broke and ran, you gave the pursuit into my hands. The remnants of Rhaegar's army fled back to King's Landing. We followed.

In the following Eddard chapter:

Ser Raymun lived under the king's peace, but his family had fought beneath Rhaegar's dragon banners at the Trident, and his three older brothers had died there, a truth neither Robert nor Ser Raymun had forgotten.

early in chapter 17 Eddard III

... and in the next ...

He remembered Rhaegar's infant son, the red ruin of his skull, and the way the king had turned away, as he had turned away in Darry's audience hall not so long ago.

in chapter 20 Eddard IV

... and then a few busy Eddard chapters later ...

Then Cersei would fall, and the Kingslayer with her, and if Lord Tywin dared to rouse the west, Robert would smash him as he had smashed Rhaegar Targaryen on the Trident. He could see it all so clearly.

in chapter 30 Eddard VII

... addressing Robert again in the following Eddard chapter ...

"Your Grace, I never knew you to fear Rhaegar."

early in chapter 33 Eddard VIII

... and then a bit later in the same chapter ...

Always? Suddenly, uncomfortably, he found himself recalling Rhaegar Targaryen. Fifteen years dead, yet Robert hates him as much as ever. It was a disturbing notion . . . and there was the other matter [...]

... and only then in the following chapter comes the line, that has fooled so many of us, myself included:

For the first time in years, he found himself remembering Rhaegar Targaryen.

early in chapter 35 Eddard IX

2. Agree on the lack of thinking about Rhaegar

Har, one more fooled :)

What had happened? GRRM has wrapped Ned remembering Rhaegar all the time around the places, doings of other people and related people being affected, taking our attention away from the central Rhaegar who's been popping up all over Ned's memory.

The magic "for the first time in years" spell clouds the reader's mind into accepting an un-truth: Ned did not think of Rhaegar, all the while he did.

The Lady Ashara was once Ned's girlfriend

She was?

Ned is strong for the tower pulley because of his built. Recall the Starks have magics from wolf blood in them too.

The retainers and smallfolk doing the dirty work for the lords and lordlings always go without mentioning. Brandon the builder was so strong he built the wall, and Storm's End, too, see.

Edit: highliting Rhaegar where he is mentioned.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

[MOD]



Address the arguments please folks, with something substantive.



And please do so without being so dismissive of another interpretation. As an example, note the actual content in JWG's post above mine.



[/MOD]


Link to comment
Share on other sites

They hadn't seen each other in years, it's not like they all met up for Thanksgiving every year and sent out baby photos.

Ned doesn't go out of his way to hide Jon at the welcome feast in AGoT. Cersei notices him, and Cersei certainly knew Rhaegar.

What would Robert have said? That Jon looks just like Ned?

Ned could have wanted Jon to remain in the North, and not be subjected to further harassment for being a bastard in KL. He outright says that last part.

That Ned has a bastard is known, so his presence at the feast would kind of be expected, I guess? And where was Jon seated? As far away from the dais as possible..

The Great Hall of Winterfell was hazy with smoke and heavy with the smell of roasted meat and fresh-baked bread. Its grey stone walls were draped with banners. White, gold, crimson: the direwolf of Stark, Baratheon’s crowned stag, the lion of Lannister. A singer was playing the high harp and reciting a ballad, but down at this end of the hall his voice could scarcely be heard above the roar of the fire, the clangor of pewter plates and cups, and the low mutter of a hundred drunken conversations.

Now, I doubt that Ned's uncomfortability during the feast came solely from Jon's presence.. If anything, that will have been a small part of it. The fact that the Lannisters were there, will have been another part. And the fact that Robert was there, who Ned was keeping secrets from, will probably have been another.

Placing Jon on one side of the Great Hall and "those who knew Rhaegar" on the other isn't a way to hide Jon from sight, but it is a way to prevent them from coming too close to Jon in order to see what they shouldn't see.. any resemblance to Rhaegar, if that is there.

It is Ned himself who doesn't want to take Jon to KL, and that's where I think it gets interesting.. Why wouldn't he want to do that? Possibly, because in KL, there are plenty of people who had known Rhaegar, very well.. Pycelle, Varys, Jaime, they would most likely all come closely to Jon, should Jon come to KL.. Compare that to Jaime and Jon apparently not meeting while at Winterfell (at least, it isn't mentioned, nor remembered later on by any of the characters).

Take Robb as example. It is clearly established that he looks so very much a Tully, right? Yet, after Ned has left Winterfell, and Robb finds himself in another role (the role of leader here, with Ned gone and Catelyn preoccupied with Bran's health), Catelyn tells us..

Catelyn had always thought Robb looked like her; like Bran and Rickon and Sansa, he had the Tully coloring, the auburn hair, the blue eyes. Yet now for the first time she saw something of Eddard Stark in his face, something as stern and hard as the north.

Robb is fourteen here... Fourteen years he has spend under his mothers care, yet that was the first time Catelyn saw something of Ned in his face. So no matter how much Robb looks like a Tully, under the right circumstances there's a bit of Eddard to see in his face as well.

Now back to Jon. No matter how much Jon looks like a Stark (plenty of quotes have been posted about that in the last 12 hours), the point remains that there might be something in his face that will reveal a little bit of Rhaegar.. It isn't his hair colour, or his eye colour, or the shape of his face... It could be anything small, really...

Regardless of whether or not that is truly there, it would have been up to Ned whether or not he wanted to risk it.. By placing Jon in an environment where Ned wasn't the highest authority, under the watchfull eye of several people who would have known him, whom Ned doesn't trust (think, for example, Varys), Neds ability to protect Jon would have diminished a bit..

I agree, you make good points. We don't have any records of Targ-Stark marriages, either to reference. Of course it's possible that Jon is Rhaegar and Lyanna's, but I think it's telling how descriptions of how Jon looks like Ned keeps popping up again and again. Even Crasters notices.

Also, in the brothel chapter, Ned is thinking about Rhaegar, and mentions he hasn't thought of him in years. Now if Jon was Rhaegar's son, and he sees Ned every single day, wouldn't he be a constant reminder of Rhaegar? Not something Ned would probably forget, especially if he's agonizing over a promise about Jon being the love child of Rhaegar and Lyanna.

I could actually imagine Lyanna eloping with someone more common, as Arya is compared to her, and Arya likes to hang out with the plebes.

I dunno. GRRM isn't supposed to do obvious, and RLJ seems to be the obvious answer from what I'm gathering over here...I think it's a trap! :)

That quote is actually quite interesting.. It's a quote from Eddard IX

There was no answer Ned Stark could give to that but a frown. For the first time in years, he found himself remembering Rhaegar Targaryen. He wondered if Rhaegar had frequented brothels; somehow he thought not.

However, on multiple occasions, Ned has been associated with Rhaegar before.. I've raised that once before, I think a year ago or something, but there were those who felt that it wasn't as much Ned thinking about or mentioning Rhaegar (though I personally disagree, as Ned either discusses Rhaegar, is thinking about the Trident where Rhaegar is mentioned, or is speaking of "Rhaegar's infant son" or "Rhaegar's little girl"..).. In any case, there is certainly one instance where Ned most certainly does think about Rhaegar, prior to him stating "for the first time in years..."

From Eddard VIII

Suddenly, uncomfortably, he found himself recalling Rhaegar Targaryen. Fifteen years dead, yet Robert hates him as much as ever. It was a disturbing notion … and there was the other matter, the business with Catelyn and the dwarf that Yoren had warned him of last night. That would come to light soon, as sure as sunrise, and with the king in such a black fury … Robert might not care a fig for Tyrion Lannister, but it would touch on his pride, and there was no telling what the queen might do.

Emphasize is mine.

So Ned did certainly think about Rhaegar before stating "for the first time in years, he found himself remembering Rhaegar Targaryen."

Edit: Apparently, I type slow this morning.. Ninja'd by Jon Weirgaryen by 17 minutes..

Link to comment
Share on other sites

“In my dreams, I kill him every night,” Robert admitted. “A thousand deaths will still be less than he deserves. “

There was nothing Ned could say to that.

Ned thinks about this scene, the death of the man who allegedly kidnaped and raped his sister (“How many times… How many hundreds of times?”), extremely dispassionately. Robert is still full of hate, but Ned manages only polite pauses and quiet sympathy.

Ned isn’t fooled as he recognizes the true nature of House Lannister and their regard for the lives of children, and has a much more vehement reaction to the fostering of his wife’s nephew than he does to the supposed kidnap and rape of his own sister.

That is something which always puzzled me. Very weird.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

That is something which always puzzled me. Very weird.

Possibly, Ned knows the Lannisters are willing to kill children, and having Tywin foster Robert Arryn would essentially making Robert a hostage under Tywin's care.. So if any conflict would arise, Robert's head would roll..

In addition, of course, Robert isn't only Catelyn's nephew.. He's also Jon Arryn's son, and Ned saw Jon Arryn as a father.. In Jon's memory, he doesn't want any harm to come to Jon's young son.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ned-Ashara thing:



It is actually in Ned's character to take a child from her mother. He took Arya and Sansa from Catelyn when he went to KL, and he very much intended to take Bran, her favorite child, from her, too. That's not exactly the same as taken an infant from his mother, but we also know he has very strong feelings about where Starks belong - to Winterfell. If he had fathered Jon Snow on Ashara shortly before it became clear that he would have to stand in for Brandon and marry Catelyn, I see no problem with him ending his betrothal to Ashara and subsequently demanding that she also give him their child to raise as his.



I don't think that this is very likely but it is something I could see Ned doing. Just as I could see Ned having extramarital sex, especially as a young man and during a tourney/feast. He'd be drinking, things would be fun, and if he is totally smitten with some beautiful girls things like that do happen.


Link to comment
Share on other sites

The Joyeuse Gard is not a part of this series, so while I find it an interesting connection, it has no bearing on this debate. We don't know why Rhaegar named the tower. We don't know Rhaegar and Lyanna were together during this time, let alone that they were together at this tower. Given the tower's isolation amidst desolation, it could well have been a sarcastic nickname.

What's important is why GRRM called it the ToJ, not why Rhaegar did. A novelist doesn't put a white whale in their book without meaning it.

Jon's newborn-presence anywhere is quite difficult to pin down only if we ignore that his wetnurse was in service to House Dayne, and that his milkbrother is the current Lord of Starfall.

I agree that does seem to have a strong bearing on Jon's whereabouts. It strongly implies he was either at Starfall, or somewhere not too far from Starfall in the presence of a Dayne who could conveniently ship in a wetnurse from there.

Regarding what is, and what is not, in-character for Eddard, I think it is far more in-character for Ned to spend time pulling down the tower "himself" for no great purpose other than the building of cairns, if he has not just found himself burdened with Lyanna and Jon Snow (and nearly just died from his battle with Arthur Dayne). Ned is honorable, and all, but this strains reason.

I don't think we should conclude it was for no reason other than building cairns. I think it's supposed to tell us just how painful Ned's memory of the event there were, that he wanted to destroy the tower, scorch the earth. Demolishing or at least rendering useless an enemies fortification isn't an unusual idea, there's even a word for it -- "slighting". However I don't see him leaving the bodies for the buzzards, and I see no reason to assume that it would take significantly more time building cairns from the convenient stones of the fallen tower than scouring the area and carrying stones back.

Nor do we know that Ned's near death experience indicates he took any sort of injury. Maybe Howland said "DUCK!" at the right moment. Maybe Dayne had killed the other five of Ned's men and Ned believed he would have been next, but then Howland unleashed Kekex the Frog who did indeed defeat Dayne in single combat.

What is troubling, for me, is how this would make a difference. I can hitch my destrier to the fence post, and if it becomes frightened, and bolts, it doesn't pull down the fence. Horses are strong, but they are not bulldozers.

Another argument I've heard is that once Ned burned the wooden portions of the building, it would just fall down. There are several issues with this. What sort of round, stone watchtower has load bearing joists made of wood? It seems rather counter-intuitive.

Moat Cailin is another goood example of this, despite being ruinous, it is still capable of housing Robb's forces, as well as providing defenses. You'd think someone would have pulled down MC with their horse by now, right? ;)

Moat Cailin is a massive castle. Totally different situation.

Load-bearing joists, no. On the other hand a stone foundation with part wood construction above is quite possible. Burning wouldn't be enough to destroy the foundation walls, but burning plus a bit of horse-work could demolish the building sufficiently. Your fencepost is stuck into the ground, while the tower might be drystone walling without foundation. It was a common building method for small to medium sized towers for thousands of years. You're talking one horse, Ned probably had 10 or more. We're talking about as much hauling power as a medium sized tractor. Using a team of oxen might be preferred, but using a team of horses to yank down bits of masonry wasn't exactly unheard of before the invention of the explosives, wrecking balls etc.

If we assume that "long fallen" means 14 years and that the tower was closely-mortared stonework of high quality, then yes Ned would have had considerable difficulty demolishing it without a team of sappers to undermine the structure. As there's nothing to imply that, the most likely reading is that GRRM thought of the tower as being in sufficiently poor condition that it was reasonable for Ned and Howland and a team of horses to yank a few walls down. I just don't see there being a problem there unless we chose to imagine one. There's nothing in the text as far as I've seen to imply that GRRM considered it a problem. Even if you do, that's the only thing that's important -- and remember that GRRM has arrows reaching the top of a 700 foot wall, and should be given a bit of leeway in mechanical matters.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Possibly, Ned knows the Lannisters are willing to kill children, and having Tywin foster Robert Arryn would essentially making Robert a hostage under Tywin's care.. So if any conflict would arise, Robert's head would roll..

In addition, of course, Robert isn't only Catelyn's nephew.. He's also Jon Arryn's son, and Ned saw Jon Arryn as a father.. In Jon's memory, he doesn't want any harm to come to Jon's young son.

No I get that. It makes perfect sense. I was referring to the fact that he has nothing to say to Robert while he's speaking about Lyanna being raped by Rhaegar and him killing Rhaegar, like "I wished I would've killed him" or something like that, but he feels so strong when it comes to Arryn's son. He's more like: Okay, you avenged Lyanna at the Trident. Case closed", while Robert is more bitter because he got to kill Rhaegar once, only.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

But that's not a consequence. That is already happening whether he kept Jon's mother a secret or not. She is convinced that Ned did loved her fiercely, and even more so by his silence.

Why? And how does that serve the narrative, again my main issue. Unless you think his secret has to do only with him being unfaithful to Cat.

But that's not a consequence. That is already happening whether he kept Jon's mother a secret or not. She is convinced that Ned did loved her fiercely, and even more so by his silence.

With the base assumption that Ned chance met a girl on, had a man's needs. and found solace: Cat wanted Jon gone.

With the knowledge that Jon's mother was an girlfriend before the war and the relationship continued after marriage, Cat had a solid reason for jealousy and a rightful sense of betrayal. Jon turns from an annoyance and a sting into a wound and intolerable.

Why? And how does that serve the narrative, again my main issue.

It does not serve the narrative it is the narrative as it is presented.

Unless you think his secret has to do only with him being unfaithful to Cat.

I did not speculate as to the nature of Ned's secret, I was provided a plausible reason for Ned to keep Jon's mother's identity from Cat.

Ned meeting a girl by chance, having a man's needs, and finding solace is being unfaithful.

Ned meeting a girl he loved is cheating. It comes from feeling and intent.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

But that's not a consequence. That is already happening whether he kept Jon's mother a secret or not. She is convinced that Ned did loved her fiercely, and even more so by his silence.

With the base assumption that Ned chance met a girl on, had a man's needs. and found solace: Cat wanted Jon gone.

With the knowledge that Jon's mother was an girlfriend before the war and the relationship continued after marriage, Cat had a solid reason for jealousy and a rightful sense of betrayal. Jon turns from an annoyance and a sting into a wound and intolerable.

Ned meeting a girl by chance, having a man's needs, and finding solace is being unfaithful.

Ned meeting a girl he loved is cheating. It comes from feeling and intent.

I understand what you mean. My problem with that argument is that Ned confirming the name of Jon's mother to Cat isn't going to make her feel much worse about Ned's betrayal, his feeling and intent. She already suspects about Ashara and is convinced that whoever that woman is Ned must've loved her fiercely.

(I would go as far as to say that as a woman I would think Ned's silence on this argument would only make Cat think that he still have feelings for that woman, thus makes her feel even more betrayed and angry versus him and Jon. But this last part is pure speculation, so let's not take this into account. )

Why? And how does that serve the narrative, again my main issue.

It does not serve the narrative it is the narrative as it is presented.

Unless you think his secret has to do only with him being unfaithful to Cat.

I did not speculate as to the nature of Ned's secret, I was provided a plausible reason for Ned to keep Jon's mother's identity from Cat.

Ned's secret I meant him keeping the name of Jon's mother a secret from Cat.

Let me put it this way. Do you think that Jon's parents identity, mother to be more precise, is important to the whole story or not? Please speculate. After all we're discussing a theory.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It should not get dismissed out of hand. She is one of two women actually named as Jon's mother in the books, and Lyanna is not the other one. There is plenty of evidence that points to Ashara as Jon's mother, and Ned absolutely has an incentive to lie about her if she is Jon's mother. Treason.

The major problem with believing Ashara is Jon's mother comes not from the books themselves, but rather from the timeline. When Martin tells us Jon is eight or nine months older, or thereabouts than Daenerys and we know Daernerys is born nine moons after the sack, then it doesn't take much more than doing a little subtraction to know that means Jon is conceived eight or nine months or so before the sack. We are told the war lasted around a year, so this puts Jon's conception around three to four months into the rebellion. If Ashara is Jon's mother, and Ned is Jon's father, they had to meet sometime within the rebellion without people on their respective sides knowing about it. This both explains why Ned would not tell anyone about it, and also makes it hard to believe at the same time. Did Ned get lost from his troops during this period? Was he are Robert separated during this time of the war? How does a well known loyalist walk into a rebel general's camp and no one blinks an eye? On and on there are questions that need answers to make this remotely believable, but, it can in no way be dismissed as a possibility.

Jon is conceived eight or nine months or so before the sack

As to your speculations about Catelyn and Ashara Dayne... sigh... needless to say, All Will Be Revealed in Good Time. I will give you this much, however; Ashara Dayne was not nailed to the floor in Starfall, as some of the fans who write me seem to assume. They have horses in Dorne too, you know. And boats (though not many of their own)---GRRM

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/1040

If Ashara is Jon's mother, and Ned is Jon's father, they had to meet sometime within the rebellion without people on their respective sides knowing about it. This both explains why Ned would not tell anyone about it, and also makes it hard to believe at the same time. Did Ned get lost from his troops during this period?

And they told told of how afterward he carried Ser Arthur's sword back to the beautiful young sister who awaited him at Starfall on the shores of the Summer Sea. The Lady Ashara Dayne, tall and fair, with haunting violet eyes... aGoT page 62.

Some among Ned's soldiers knew Ashara awaited. Some among Ned's soldiers knew what Ashara looked like.

Ned's relationship with Ashara was not a secret among his soldiers. Ned need not have gotten lost.. in fact Ned getting lost to meet Ashara removes the tales of his relationship with her and her physical description.

Was he are Robert separated during this time of the war?

Ned was not Robert's constant companion. In fact he was not present when Robert killed Rhaegar. He showed up after Rhaegar was dead.

How does a well known loyalist walk into a rebel general's camp and no one blinks an eye?

Good question... if the loyalist was a soldier, a knight, or posed some kind of a threat.

On and on there are questions that need answers to make this remotely believable,

Insisting that Ashara was unknown and unrecognized requires an explanation of the tales told by Ned's soldiers to make the assumption remotely believable.

It is really difficult to punch a hole in N plus A equals Jon. Instead of citing text or SSM to discredit the idea, we have to exclude and discredit the text and SSMs,

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×
×
  • Create New...