R+L=J v.146

[Sly Wren]

:D so if you have sex with a sibling, but use contraception, it's not incest?

Is there something you're trying to tell us? :cool4:

[BearQueen87]

Lyanna would be the "cheater", and Starks are supposed to be honorable. However, let's say they had a secret polygamous marriage under the Weirwood. Why is it a secret? If the argument is that as the Dragon King, or a royal, they are above the law, there would be no need to abduct/kidnap/elope at all. Just send for Lyanna, have the second wedding, and screw Robert. At least that's how I see it. I used to believe RLJ, btw, I only changed my mind when I started my latest reread.

Say who?? The Starks aren't the epitome of honor. There have been dark Starks, good Starks, medium Starks. They aren't simply "GOOD"

Who is to say that it would be secret forever? And obviously they had witnesses. As for "why not just send for her..." because Aerys is still King, still paranoid, and still thinking his son is out to get him.

And what is your latest theory if not RLJ? Who are Jon's parents?

[Sly Wren]

This is quite possible to father bastards without frequenting brothels...

Yup.

[SFDanny]

Lyanna would be the "cheater", and Starks are supposed to be honorable. However, let's say they had a secret polygamous marriage under the Weirwood. Why is it a secret? If the argument is that as the Dragon King, or a royal, they are above the law, there would be no need to abduct/kidnap/elope at all. Just send for Lyanna, have the second wedding, and screw Robert. At least that's how I see it. I used to believe RLJ, btw, I only changed my mind when I started my latest reread.

There is a huge difference between being King or being a "royal." Kings decide to do what they want to do. Other royals need to follow the king. The fact Lyanna and Rhaegar are nowhere in which Aerys can find them for months after the "kidnapping" suggests they are hiding from Aerys as much as they are hiding from the Starks and Robert. If they are not around the king, then the king can't force them to do something they don't want him to tell them they have to do. What it looks like to me is that Rhaegar and Lyanna are counting on tempers cooling and an acceptance of a relationship by both sides. It is really their only option other than accepting what the king says, and/or what Lord Stark and Robert say. Think of it as a form of passive non-compliance to both the king and the Starks. A tactic when no other options are really available.

[Adaneth]

My main point though was that it doesn't seem like Lyanna would elope with a married man if she was already concerned about Robert being faithful.

We don't know anything for sure but it seems to me even less likely that Rhaegar did kidnapped and raped her, thus confirming in the end what everybody has been already thinking and saying in Westeros.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

Why does 200 years matter. If the King says "legal" then it's legal, especially if the High Septon is under his thumb (as it seems all high septons are) and therefore won't make a fuss for religious reasons. And it has happened in the past 200 years to a group of people who are also outside and above Westerosi law (like the Targaryens): the Wildlings. Craster had man wives and the men of the NW aren't disgusted by the number of his wives, but that his wives are also his daughters. Look at how the men of the NW react to Ygon Oldfather: 17 wives. They don't bat an eye. It's incest that's the big issue, not polygamy.

Rhaegar was not a king nor had he dragons. He did not have the power of the old Targ kings. His father, the king was mad and at that time the high lords are making alliances through marriages. The brains behind the throne, Tywin, has withdrew from the king. The small host of Targaryens were on the downslope and did not have the power of the early years of the Targaryen reign. And, I don't recall Aerys giving the okay for Rhaegar to marry another girl. He wanted Valyrian blood for his sons wife.

[BearQueen87]

Rhaegar was not a king nor had he dragons. He did not have the power of the old Targ kings. His father, the king was mad and at that time the high lords are making alliances through marriages. The brains behind the throne, Tywin, has withdrew from the king. The small host of Targaryens were on the downslope and did not have the power of the early years of the Targaryen reign. And, I don't recall Aerys giving the okay for Rhaegar to marry another girl. He wanted Valyrian blood for his sons wife.

you don't need your father's permission to marry. See: Aegon V's kids. (among other examples).

I didn't say Rhaegar wasn't somewhat foolhardy. I don't know, yet, what was going through his mind. Not all of it. Maybe he thought he had a plan that would settle all those quibbles. But those are his quibbles to deal with and if he thought he could (by taking down Aerys first and foremost) then he would go through with it, IMO

[Mother of Dragons]

Is there something you're trying to tell us? :cool4:

LoL! You and ATS crack me up! :)

[Mother of Dragons]

Say who?? The Starks aren't the epitome of honor. There have been dark Starks, good Starks, medium Starks. They aren't simply "GOOD"

Who is to say that it would be secret forever? And obviously they had witnesses. As for "why not just send for her..." because Aerys is still King, still paranoid, and still thinking his son is out to get him.

And what is your latest theory if not RLJ? Who are Jon's parents?

Whooah! Put on the breaks, BQ, I'm just answering the questions you asked me, no need to get feisty :) I don't proclaim to have a latest theory or know the truth, I just read over some passages that convinced me, personally, that I could eliminate Ray-Ray as Jon's baby daddy.

Who says the Starks have honor? I thought that was argued over here as to why Ned kept Jon's parentage a secret. Because of honor.

[Mother of Dragons]

We don't know anything for sure but it seems to me even less likely that Rhaegar did kidnapped and raped her, thus confirming in the end what everybody has been already thinking and saying in Westeros.

So by your logic, if a majority of people believe in an idea, it validates it?

ETA: maybe I misunderstood- are you talking about this website? Because in the books everybody isn't thinking and talking about a sordid Lyanna/Rhaegar love affair.

[Lord Varys]

My best guess is that Rhaegar publicly married Lyanna without royal permission, and then his father was calling for his head long before he called for the heads of Eddard Stark and Robert Baratheon, forcing Rhaegar to disappear. Just because we don't know any of this doesn't mean it didn't happen. What we know is that Rhaegar and Lyanna did disappear and must have had a reason for that.

There is indeed no chance whatsoever that Rhaegar had his father's permission to take another wife/set his old wife aside or practice open polygamy. And without Aerys' permission he would also not have the High Septon's permission and subsequently no permission for polygamy in general, and also no authority to enforce his unique lifestyle on the Realm. Especially not since his choice of a second wife turned at least 2-3 great houses against him.

Rhaegar was done as Prince of Dragonstone and Heir Apparent to the Iron Throne the very moment he took (and married) Lyanna (if he did that). Pretty much nobody would have accepted his marriage - certainly not the Starks, the Baratheons, and their allies, and most likely also not the Martells. And we know what happens when a prince takes the wrong wife - he is done.

Other thing:

Has anyone ever done the math and considered the fact that any relationship between Rhaegar and Lyanna would actually be very inappropriate/close to Drogo-Dany by modern standards? Rhaegar was born in 259 AC, whereas Lyanna was only 16 when she died in 283 AC. Which means that she was 13-14 in the Year of the False Spring (281 AC) while Rhaegar was already a man of 21-22. One can see now how Robert came up with this whole rape idea. I'd not be surprised if Lyanna was indeed abused/raped into loving Rhaegar - just as Daenerys 'learned to love Drogo'.

[Sly Wren]

you don't need your father's permission to marry. See: Aegon V's kids. (among other examples).

I didn't say Rhaegar wasn't somewhat foolhardy. I don't know, yet, what was going through his mind. Not all of it. Maybe he thought he had a plan that would settle all those quibbles. But those are his quibbles to deal with and if he thought he could (by taking down Aerys first and foremost) then he would go through with it, IMO

Fair enough--they could have married. At present, nothing in the text precludes it.

But whether they were or not, I think the "plan" (whatever it was) went awry--to put it mildly. And I can't see how their being married or not makes it any better or worse. We've no evidence Lyanna would be okay with a polygamous marriage. And no evidence the declaration of such a marriage would have made anyone less angry or miserable about the "running off."

Bottom line: at present, we don't know if they were married or not. Am not sure it makes them look any better if they were. Not sure we can decide that until the next book is published (if then).

But as you say--Rhaegar was somewhat foolhardy. That's very clear--married or not.

[Alia of the knife]

Say who?? The Starks aren't the epitome of honor. There have been dark Starks, good Starks, medium Starks. They aren't simply "GOOD"

Who is to say that it would be secret forever? And obviously they had witnesses. As for "why not just send for her..." because Aerys is still King, still paranoid, and still thinking his son is out to get him.

And what is your latest theory if not RLJ? Who are Jon's parents?

And TBH, I think that "spooky" Starks might give the "weird" Targs. a run for their money. I've always wondered when Aegon the Conqueror landed if he didn't have his sorcerers with him who whispered in his to let Torren bend the knee, say the words and then bounce- quick?

They never seemed to back with the exception of Jahaerys.

We don't know anything for sure but it seems to me even less likely that Rhaegar did kidnapped and raped her, thus confirming in the end what everybody has been already thinking and saying in Westeros.

They locked the thread before I could answer you.

Thanks for the compliment, like my dad, I've always been a voracious reader, loving both ancient and medieval history along with the classics.

(Sometimes I don't know if understanding history gives me comfort, or gives me trepidation), but as to your second question about a thread that addresses specifically notable women warriors, or specifically female leaders, I don't think so, but they tend to come up on particular threads about Sansa, Arya, or Lyanna and Brienne.

(I have always enjoyed the story of Catherine the Great who literally went to war with her ass of a husband and defeated him).

Her reign would see even Alaska established. The U.S. purchased it from Russia in 1867.

I try to stay away from "gender wars" though, because while its true powerful men would always be powerful, the reality is they didn't have a lot of choices either.

[Mother of Dragons]

you don't need your father's permission to marry. See: Aegon V's kids. (among other examples).

I didn't say Rhaegar wasn't somewhat foolhardy. I don't know, yet, what was going through his mind. Not all of it. Maybe he thought he had a plan that would settle all those quibbles. But those are his quibbles to deal with and if he thought he could (by taking down Aerys first and foremost) then he would go through with it, IMO

Doesn't SF Danny's argument contradict yours? She says royals are not the King, and need to do as the King says. But you're saying he doesn't.

[Adaneth]

So by your logic, if a majority of people believe in an idea, it validates it?

No, I was saying the opposite.

ETA: maybe I misunderstood- are you talking about this website? Because in the books everybody isn't thinking and talking about a sordid Lyanna/Rhaegar love affair.

I was speaking about the version given in the books. The story is that Rhaegar kidnapped her, and Robert thinks she was raped (he would be right to think that if she really was kidnapped) and nobody has challenged his version yet.

Selmy is convinced that Rhaegar loved Lyanna but if what he says is true, we still don't know if she loved him back. I thought that was your point (if I understood you correctly?) because you said your main point was that it doesn't seem like Lyanna would elope with a married man. The alternative would be that she indeed was kidnapped and Rhaegar would've forced himself into her.

[Lady Darry]

My best guess is that Rhaegar publicly married Lyanna without royal permission, and then his father was calling for his head long before he called for the heads of Eddard Stark and Robert Baratheon, forcing Rhaegar to disappear. Just because we don't know any of this doesn't mean it didn't happen. What we know is that Rhaegar and Lyanna did disappear and must have had a reason for that.

There is indeed no chance whatsoever that Rhaegar had his father's permission to take another wife/set his old wife aside or practice open polygamy. And without Aerys' permission he would also not have the High Septon's permission and subsequently no permission for polygamy in general, and also no authority to enforce his unique lifestyle on the Realm. Especially not since his choice of a second wife turned at least 2-3 great houses against him.

Rhaegar was done as Prince of Dragonstone and Heir Apparent to the Iron Throne the very moment he took (and married) Lyanna (if he did that). Pretty much nobody would have accepted his marriage - certainly not the Starks, the Baratheons, and their allies, and most likely also not the Martells. And we know what happens when a prince takes the wrong wife - he is done.

Other thing:

Has anyone ever done the math and considered the fact that any relationship between Rhaegar and Lyanna would actually be very inappropriate/close to Drogo-Dany by modern standards? Rhaegar was born in 259 AC, whereas Lyanna was only 16 when she died in 283 AC. Which means that she was 13-14 in the Year of the False Spring (281 AC) while Rhaegar was already a man of 21-22. One can see now how Robert came up with this whole rape idea. I'd not be surprised if Lyanna was indeed abused/raped into loving Rhaegar - just as Daenerys 'learned to love Drogo'.

Which is why I don't understand why would they marry? I understand that he wanted the promised prince and not promised bastard, but what kind of an argument could they have. Him and Lyanna? Because getting married is probably even more dangerous and stupid then kidnapping her.

I think that years are a bit of a GRRM thing. From our modern standards she was raped. Because she was a minor. But I don't think GRRM saw it like that in his universe. He argued that you could only be a child or an adult in medieval time, which is true, but I think he went a bit over board. And we have a bunch of characters fantasizing about girls younger then 16 and a lot of examples of women getting married before they were 16. They wanted Viserys to marry Leana, and she was 12. And we also know that Robert slept with girls younger then 16 and that Ned knew that (Barra's mother) and he didn't think she was raped. So I don't think this is considered rape in Westeros. They probably thought she was raped because according to them she was kidnapped. It had nothing to do with age.

[Mother of Dragons]

No, I was saying the opposite.

I was speaking about the version given in the books. The story is that Rhaegar kidnapped her, and Robert thinks she was raped (he would be right to think that if she really was kidnapped) and nobody has challenged his version yet.

Selmy is convinced that Rhaegar loved Lyanna but if what he says is true, we still don't know if she loved him back. I thought that was your point (if I understood you correctly?) because you said your main point was that it doesn't seem like Lyanna would elope with a married man. The alternative would be that she indeed was kidnapped and Rhaegar would've forced himself into her.

Basically, yes, if Lyanna is turned off by Robert's infidelity, it would make her a hypocrite to run off with a married man. I don't even think we can conclude for sure that Lyanna even had a baby. We're assuming either of those scenarios took place. I've already talked about this, but the description of Lyanna lying in gore sounds a lot more violent to me than childbirth.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

Ooooh, page 2 already ... still ... shiny!

Ooooh, page 2 already ... still ... shiny!

C'mon now. We just had this talk from the mod in the last thread. No spamming up the place.

[Lord Varys]

My point is that the rather big age difference pretty much shows that Rhaegar effectively abused Lyanna. He was an older, sexually experienced/active man who also happened to be in a more powerful position than she was. An 18-year-old man and a 15-year-old girl would be one thing. A 13-14-year-old girl and 22-year-old is an entirely different thing. And the whole thing began at Harrenhal when Lyanna was still that young.

It begs the question what Rhaegar saw in this girl besides her blossoming womanly shape. We all know that girls and boys hitting adolescence are very attractive to any age group - especially if they are very beautiful - but they usually are also shallow and not very deep or interesting personalities (simply because they lack experience and knowledge). I'm not sure what Rhaegar - a very educated and smart person, apparently - saw in Lyanna besides the obvious. Sure, there was this whole knightly valor/fighting for poor Howland chivalry thing - but you usually don't fall in love or cherish somebody all that much for staying up for somebody.

Hormones could have sustained the whole thing for the short time they had together, to be sure, but the whole thing wouldn't a big or special love story then.

Rhaegar actually had the promised prince already - his son, Prince Aegon. Whatever speculation there is about a child by him and Lyanna is just speculation. The case that Rhaegar wouldn't want the third dragon head to be a bastard is not necessarily convincing. Orys Baratheon served Aegon and his sisters well despite the fact that he may have been a bastard, just as Brynden Rivers served Daeron II and his sons.

There doesn't have to be a marriage involved. But if there was a marriage I'd expect Rhaegar forced Lyanna to marry just as he took her by force.

[Adaneth]

Thanks for the compliment, like my dad, I've always been a voracious reader, loving both ancient and medieval history along with the classics.

(Sometimes I don't know if understanding history gives me comfort, or gives me trepidation), but as to your second question about a thread that addresses specifically notable women warriors, or specifically female leaders, I don't think so, but they tend to come up on particular threads about Sansa, Arya, or Lyanna and Brienne.

(I have always enjoyed the story of Catherine the Great who literally went to war with her ass of a husband and defeated him). Her reign would see even Alaska established. The U.S. purchased it from Russia in 1867.

Ha. My father is an historian and I'm voracious reader myself and loooove history (more of an "expert" in WWII though). :)

I try to stay away from "gender wars" though, because while its true powerful men would always be powerful, the reality is they didn't have a lot of choices either.

Nothing against powerful men and it's not about gender. ;) It's just that I've come to realise that I myself know lot less about those women (except few who're famous) than men. I watched a BBC documentary "She-Wolves: England's Early Queens" 3 months ago and I realised how little I knew about Margaret of Anjou, for example, and almost nothing about Isabella of France. I didn't know a lot of things about Eleanor also.