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R+L=J v.146


Ygrain

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Lyanna would be the "cheater", and Starks are supposed to be honorable. However, let's say they had a secret polygamous marriage under the Weirwood. Why is it a secret? If the argument is that as the Dragon King, or a royal, they are above the law, there would be no need to abduct/kidnap/elope at all. Just send for Lyanna, have the second wedding, and screw Robert. At least that's how I see it. I used to believe RLJ, btw, I only changed my mind when I started my latest reread.

Perhaps Lyanna found it quite a big difference between Rhaegar being married to her whilst also being married to Elia, compared to Robert sleeping with a lot of women to whom he wasn't married, whilst he would be married to her?

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Rhaenys,



considering what we know already about the beginning of the Rebellion it is very odd that we haven't been given much detail on the events leading up to Jon Arryn calling his banners. And Yandel makes it appear as if there is a story to be told there - a well-known story he doesn't have to repeat in TWoIaF beginning with Lyanna's abduction and ending with Aerys calling for Ned and Robert's heads. What exactly would that story be?



In light of TWoIaF it is very weird to assume that Aerys would actually defend Rhaegar from Brandon. All we got was a description what Brandon did/said when he came to KL - we don't know whether Aerys actually believed that. And considering that Aerys and his cronies apparently didn't even believe back at Harrenhal that the Starks were opposed to the coronation thing I find it very difficult to believe he would now believe that Brandon was opposed to whatever Rhaegar was doing with Lyanna. And with Rhaegar not being there Aerys could easily imagine everything he wanted about this whole thing.



The whole Aerys vs. Rhaegar and the 'Starks and Rhaegar are secretly in cahoots' angle certainly puts the events after the abduction in a different light. Aerys and his people would interpret everything with the presuppositions and preconceptions from Harrenhal in mind. And they make it exceedingly unlikely that Aerys would suddenly come to the defense of his son and heir. Not to mention that the execution of Rickard Stark - a man Aerys seems to have had a positive relationship in the past - is actually no trivial thing. Madness or not, he must have felt that this was necessary for some reason. And Rickard's son threatening Rhaegar's life in public shouldn't be enough for that. Aerys feared Rhaegar was a threat to him, too, after all. Thus it is much more likely Aerys considered Rickard a very dire threat to himself. We have still no clue what the trial and subsequent 'trial-by-combat' was actually about...


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If Rhaegar did marry Lyanna then one would expect him to marry her very publicly. After all, the whole point in a marriage is to publicly announce that you are now living together with that person. If you marry in secret you may be married 'in your heart' and 'in front of the gods' but to the public - and especially to your enemies - you still would only have a concubine. That is not the point Rhaegar would have wanted to make if he married.

I agree that R and L would likely have had a larger more public ceremony at some point--probably in KL with the High Septon. But that wasn't exactly an option when R "took" L and doesn't mean that they didn't get married in front of a heart tree and it doesn't mean that R didn't have a plan to go through with what you're suggesting at some point. While a big public wedding would be expected (and probably demanded) at some point, not having one doesn't negate an actual wedding or marriage. Tyrion and Tysha had the very definition of a small wedding--just them and the Septon. And it counted.

But this whole age gap really makes it difficult for me right to continue to consider Rhaegar and Lyanna a great romantic couple.

You mean their actual ages? Is differences in ages some kind of deterrent for love? And we don't yet know that it started off as love--it may have started off as something else, for both parties and morphed into love.

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BQ87,



they could have had a public ceremony/reasonably large wedding either at Harrenhal or at Maidenpool where Rhaegar had fast friends. Rhaegar wasn't Tyrion, he was the Prince of Dragonstone, he had no reason to run away or do anything in secret. He was not exactly a thirteen-year-old boy living under his father's thumb, after all.



The point between secret and public marriages is that the latter cannot be called into question while the former can. If Rhaegar wanted to marry Lyanna he'd have been well advised to do it in public so that nobody could unmake it by, say, killing all the witnesses, or something like that. Not to mention that a marriage in private would only have the purpose of making any child they would have legitimate. Why not happily rape/fuck Lyanna and give her moon tea while they can't marry officially?


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I'm not sold on Rhaegar and Lyanna marrying, but I think the idea of a well known public marriage is thus far baseless. Jaehaerys and Shaera married and consummated in secret. Obviously the intent wasn't to keep it secret forever, but to make it a fact before anyone could stop them. If Rhaegar and Lyanna married I don't think there is any reason to think Westeros knows about it. Depending on when Rhaegar's companions split off from him, they would have possible witnesses. And if Dayne and Whent were among them, they had some credible witnesses. Had things gone their way I don't think they would have had a problem establishing that a marriage took place. Whether it would be accepted and by whom is another matter.

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No worries :)

Interesting connection of Barra's mother longing for Robert to Lyanna and her possible feelings for Rhaegar.

There is indeed still some wiggle room, which makes me wonder whether or not Ned would have known about whether Jon was trueborn or not in the first place. If he didn't know, there won't be any hints about that specific bit in his thoughts, I think?

But that would be Aerys dealing with Rhaegar, and Brandons reaction sure makes it sound (to me, at least) like he didn't.

Did the math, of course :). Rhaegar was 22/23 when they disappeared, Lyanna 15/16. Smaller age-gap than Dany (13) and Drogo (about 30), but still considerable..

The difference in age for Lyanna and Rhaegar, and especially Lyanna's relative youth, make me wonder whether it is possible that Lyanna idolized Rhaegar, and love of Rhaegar to Lyanna came only later..

I have always tended to think at least initially that it was somewhat one-sided. Yes she sniffled at his song, but then Martin goes to great lenths in Dragons to stress through Joncon that, and paraphrasing, that everyone wept when Rhaegar played, well, accept the men of course.

To me, that is very deliberate of Martin to clarify that almost everyone wept when he played, so I'm not sure that is the best indicator of her feelings.

I've always sort of pictured Lyanna not really looking to love anyone at that point, but even her reaction to Roberts infedelity makes me thing she wasn't entirely indifferent to him either.

Also taking Martins words about marriage in the Medieval era and that almost no one ever considered doing anything different than to marry for family alliance is an indicator to me that very likely, she still planned to marry Robert.

I've also taken Jorahs story with his own tourney into account, though I don't see Lyanna using Rhaegar like Jorahs wife ultimately did, but in terms of the love being somewhat one-sided- initially.

Like Arya, and that is who Lyanna is compared to the most, I think she would be VERY hard to get, and despite the TOJ being named by Rhaegar, I bet life with her was not easy, but then, maybe for Rhaegar that was part of the appeal. I'm guessing that like Gendry, Rhaegar probably had a lot of apples, or other things, thrown at him too.

Again, another difference between her and the rest of the swooning maidens, including Cersei, of the kingdom that might have bored Rhaegar.

The Times:

Rhaegar would have to know that like his ancestor, Prince Daemon, having Lyanna spend just twenty-four hours with him, doing no more than playing cards would ruin her for other men or prospects- she would have to marry him, and again, not saying comparing the two mens character, just possibly the end results of what they wanted to achieve.

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My first thought when I first saw it was that it was fire, perhaps Mel standing above him.

But in context of this subject, the media buzz is around who Jons mother was, and now that Ned may not have been his father. The blood is also definitely black, (wasn't drogons as well)?

However, and there is something here for everyone, the blood pattern morphs into the shape of a wolf.

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Bael's Bastard,



but why would Rhaegar go with a secret marriage? Jaehaerys and Shaera are a completely different case. They were siblings who were not supposed to marry and still minors under their parents' thumb. Just like Tyrion was when married Tysha. Lyanna was still a minor when Rhaegar took her but he himself was the Prince of Dragonstone and a man grown. There was no reason to not play whatever game he was playing openly. Taking Lyanna couldn't (and didn't) stay a secret, and it is known that people know or believe Lyanna was the woman he loved. The fact that there are as of yet no references to the marriage in the text doesn't mean it didn't happen - just that the author is keeping that a secret from us.



In the light of the political situation after Harrenhal Rhaegar would have to have been an utter fool to not go public about anything he was doing. If he didn't communicate clearly and loudly what he was doing why his enemies could construe his actions to mean whatever the hell they wanted them to mean - and that's exactly what Robert and the rebels later did. Rhaegar got himself killed and his dynasty destroyed because he did nothing for far too long, and considering that he is not described as a fool there must have been some reason as to why he was hiding for as long as he did, and my guess for that is that he had to - not felt that he had to, but actually had to because his father had made it clear that neither he nor Lyanna were welcome at court anymore.



Of course, if there was no marriage then the mere abduction could have had the same consequences - Aerys could have construed Lyanna's abduction as treason, called for Rhaegar's head forcing him underground. Afterwards he accuses the Starks of being complicit in this evil scheme, kills Brandon and Rickard, and calls for Ned and Robert's heads.



What I don't find plausible is the idea that Rhaegar wasn't forced into hiding but found it a very good idea to let things cool down while they were not cooling down but rather heating up and he couldn't do anything about it.



And I really don't think KG sworn to obey Rhaegar would be good witnesses for anything. They would be honor-bound to lie if the prince commanded it, no?


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My Lord father believed that no man could tell a lie in front of a heart tree, The old gods know when men are lying.---Jon aCoK page 185

To have a polygamous marriage in front of a heart tree, Lyanna must believe that the old gods permit polygamy and the old gods must permit polygamy.

The heart tree solution gets tossed out because a tree could not object to it and the marriages performed in front of a heart tree are considered valid.

Take away the power of the heart tree and the old gods and you take away the validity of the marriage.

For a marriage in front of a heart tree or a marriage in front of a septon.... we need a belief structure that permits polygamy. We do not have one.

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Stop reaching. This interview is done way before D&D described how it was with Martin when they said their answer on other media forums.

In fact, if tomorrow D&D say publicly, "Actually, Martin didn't really say anything, he just shook his head from side to side, giggle a little bit, and said 'okay', never really say that we got it right." You would believe it. Because in your head, the narrative theory of R+L=J, is wrong, you guys are very easy to predict. We went through the thick and thin slicing this theory, discussing its pros & cons, and how it relates to the overall arc and narrative of Martin's novels. It's the most accurate with all the hints, clues and foreshadowing, given to us. No other comes close.

Not reaching at all. There are different versions of how that interview went down.

GEORGE R.R. MARTIN: [...]So, we had this lunch at the Palm that was pretty epic. We got there for lunch and started talking, and we continued to talk. They had the some notion not to do it as a feature film, but to do it as a television production. We talked right through lunch. Everybody from lunch left. We were alone in the restaurant. They started resetting all the tables for dinner, and then the dinner crowd started to come in, and we were still talking. I did ask them a few pointed question to determine whether they had actually read the books, and they gave me the right answers. So, we shook hands and they took the ball and ran with it. The next thing I knew, we were in business with HBO.

David and Dan, what was the specific question that George asked you?

DAN WEISS: He asked us, Who is Jon Snows mother? We had discussed it before, and we gave a shocking answer. At that point, George didnt actually say whether or not we were right or wrong, but his smile was his tell. We knew we had passed the Wonka test, at that point

As to the bolded piece in your response, you do not know what I would believe or do believe nor what I think about the R+L=J theory. Also, I am one person, not a group of people.

I will tell you that I think it is possible that Jon's parents are Rhaegar and Lyanna, but that is only one possibility. Rhaegar is said to have abducted Lyanna and to have raped her and that is very straightforward. There are hints that Lyanna gave birth and if that baby is Jon then Ned is not likely to be the father.

One more message to go... I disagree with some of the analysis and what is claimed as 'clues' and 'foreshadowing' in this thread. I am here not to attack anyone but to give my opinions on RLJ.

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I don't think the old gods/heart trees are offended by polygamy. We know that plenty of first men practiced it before the Andals came. It still seems to be practiced beyond the wall by at least one wildling. (and Craster, but somehow I suspect he marries his wives in some other ceremony. His gods are clearly not the old gods.)

It really seems to have been the Faith that brought an end to polygamy in Westeros. If one doesn't think a law was ever passed banning polygamy in the Seven Kingdoms, then one has to wonder why we don't see it at all in the North.

The wildings do follow the old gods. They do not follow the marriage practices of the seven kingdoms. ---We have not seen a heart tree wedding among the free folk. Their marriage seems to depend on the husband being able to steal the wife.---Rhargar was married to Lyanna under the customs of the Free Folk.

Claims to property and power have more to do with marriage than religious belief does. It is hard to blame the faith of the seven for the establishment of the feudal society. Marriage as practiced under the faith and under the old gods in the North limit the claims to the property and power of a lord by limiting the offspring that can make a claim.

There was never a law passed allowing marriage in the Seven Kingdoms. (By the power vested in me by king-insert name-- and the Seven I now pronounce you man and wife... does not happen.) Marriages are religious ceremonies that are recognized under law.

The reason we do not see polygamy in the North is the uselessness and problematic nature of heirs beyond the first.

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Well, who is the corpse and what's it doing there with those two?

It's a little weird, though, that Jon (male) would be symbolized by something feminine like a flower.

Corpse is Euron swimming to Queen Dany it is not of import when taking in account R+L=J. The true message is the rose blue, like the Bard. All peoples have male and female traits. This flower for Jon is his balancing scale. Dany is female, but still has male dragons for her symbolisms.

Also, Jon can guard Dany from Others because of his strong magics of both Starks and Targaryens. Dany only has one of these magics. When Jon was in Crasters home, he seen the Ice King take the baby away, but the Ice King leaves Jon alone because of his warding magic from Lady Lyanna. So when the dead Euron tries to steal Queen Dany, he will submit to Jon Targaryen.

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Not reaching at all. There are different versions of how that interview went down.

As to the bolded piece in your response, you do not know what I would believe or do believe nor what I think about the R+L=J theory. Also, I am one person, not a group of people.

I will tell you that I think it is possible that Jon's parents are Rhaegar and Lyanna, but that is only one possibility. Rhaegar is said to have abducted Lyanna and to have raped her and that is very straightforward. There are hints that Lyanna gave birth and if that baby is Jon then Ned is not likely to be the father.

One more message to go... I disagree with some of the analysis and what is claimed as 'clues' and 'foreshadowing' in this thread. I am here not to attack anyone but to give my opinions on RLJ.

HBO only got privileged for Game of Thrones because they know that RLJ is the truth. They say this truth in other interviews, and Ice Fire proofed it to you. Theon the Greyjoy's actor also learned this and they just cannot give us the easy answer, but we know already. The truth speaks from the books.

There are not merely hints with Lady Lyanna's baby, it is plainly written. Bed of blood only means death by baby. And that is how Lyanna died. Also she was still in her wedding dress because it was white.

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HBO only got privileged for Game of Thrones because they know that RLJ is the truth. They say this truth in other interviews, and Ice Fire proofed it to you. Theon the Greyjoy's actor also learned this and they just cannot give us the easy answer, but we know already. The truth speaks from the books.

There are not merely hints with Lady Lyanna's baby, it is plainly written. Bed of blood only means death by baby. And that is how Lyanna died. Also she was still in her wedding dress because it was white.

Bed of blood is a synecdoche for childbirth. Lyanna dying in childbirth is the combination of the whispered promise me from her death and bed of blood.

Lyanna was in a gown---not a dress-- spattered with gore. There is no association between a white gown and a wedding.

Lyanna had a baby. Not all babies live. Not all babies are boys.

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Bed of blood is a synecdoche for childbirth. Lyanna dying in childbirth is the combination of the whispered promise me from her death and bed of blood.

Lyanna was in a gown---not a dress-- spattered with gore. There is no association between a white gown and a wedding.

Lyanna had a baby. Not all babies live. Not all babies are boys.

Wedding gown is a term in English, yes? A gown and dress how are the difference? This gore and blood is confused. I said already she has died because of her baby. You also agree she has had a baby and she is dead, yes? There is no reasons for the Lady Lyanna to have a baby in the stories if it is not Jon, son of Rhaegar.

The wedding happened when Lyanna was pledged. It was a secret from the King because Prince Rhaegar fears his father. The gods of old favor polygamy because Crasters has many wives but he is protected for this. White gowns are worn by the wife when we'd.

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Wedding gown is a term in English, yes? A gown and dress how are the difference? This gore and blood is confused. I said already she has died because of her baby. You also agree she has had a baby and she is dead, yes? There is no reasons for the Lady Lyanna to have a baby in the stories if it is not Jon, son of Rhaegar.

The wedding happened when Lyanna was pledged. It was a secret from the King because Prince Rhaegar fears his father. The gods of old favor polygamy because Crasters has many wives but he is protected for this. White gowns are worn by the wife when we'd.

You are correct and good luck.

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HBO only got privileged for Game of Thrones because they know that RLJ is the truth. They say this truth in other interviews, and Ice Fire proofed it to you. Theon the Greyjoy's actor also learned this and they just cannot give us the easy answer, but we know already. The truth speaks from the books.

There are not merely hints with Lady Lyanna's baby, it is plainly written. Bed of blood only means death by baby. And that is how Lyanna died. Also she was still in her wedding dress because it was white.

I was referencing the writers thoughts on the book material and what they had to say concerning GRRM's questions about the books. There just fans of GRRM like the rest of us with their own theories and conclusions.

White wedding dresses are not a part of this story. The ladies marry in their house colors. The cloaks in the house/father's colors are removed to place the house colors of the husband.

Bed of blood is used in reference to birthing, but not every use of the phrase has to describe childbirth. You may have noticed that Theon's dream including Lyanna has her splattered with gore. Splattered with gore is not a reference to childbirth. That sounds like violence to me.

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Wedding gown is a term in English, yes? A gown and dress how are the difference? This gore and blood is confused. I said already she has died because of her baby. You also agree she has had a baby and she is dead, yes? There is no reasons for the Lady Lyanna to have a baby in the stories if it is not Jon, son of Rhaegar.

The wedding happened when Lyanna was pledged. It was a secret from the King because Prince Rhaegar fears his father. The gods of old favor polygamy because Crasters has many wives but he is protected for this. White gowns are worn by the wife when we'd.

Wedding gown is a term in English, yes? A gown and dress how are the difference? This gore and blood is confused.

Gown:

1. A long loose flowing garment, such as a robe or nightgown.
2. A long, usually formal dress for a woman.
3. A robe or smock worn in operating rooms and other parts of hospitals as a guard against contamination.
4. A distinctive outer robe worn on ceremonial occasions, as by scholars or clerics.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/gown

A white gown spattered with gore can be the clothing word during childbirth.

A white dress spattered with gore.....that is a bit more confusing.

You also agree she has had a baby and she is dead, yes?

Lyanna had a baby.

There is no reasons for the Lady Lyanna to have a baby in the stories if it is not Jon, son of Rhaegar.

Lyanna having a baby with Rhaegar serves many functions.

There are some clues that Jon was that baby... those clues would lead the story in a certain direction.

There are clues that Jon was Wylla's baby. This would lead the story in a certain direction.

There are clues that Jon was Ashara's baby. This would lead the story in a certain direction.

The wedding happened when Lyanna was pledged. It was a secret from the King because Prince Rhaegar fears his father.

The gods of old favor polygamy

That is a tricky one. The north follows the old gods. They practice marriage between one man and one woman in front of a heart tree.

The free folk follow the old gods. They practice marriage by a man stealing a woman. (No heart tree. No vows)

because Crasters has many wives but he is protected for this.

Craster is an odd duck. His wives are his daughters. This is not practiced anywhere. He sacrifices his sons to the others. I really have no clue what gods he follows.

White gowns are worn by the wife when wed.

white long formal dresses are worn for weddings.... yes this is a gown. The white dress's role in ceremonies in a Sept or in front of a Heart Tree is not given.

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The free folk aren't the wildlings. All free folk are wildlings but not all wildlings are free folk. And Caster isn't one of the free folk, just as the Thenns, the Hornfoot men, or the ice river clansmen aren't. Some wildlings follow the old gods but not all of them. And Craster certainly doesn't follow the old gods.


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