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R+L=J v.146


Ygrain

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Wedding gown is a term in English, yes? A gown and dress how are the difference? This gore and blood is confused.

Gown:

1. A long loose flowing garment, such as a robe or nightgown.

2. A long, usually formal dress for a woman.

3. A robe or smock worn in operating rooms and other parts of hospitals as a guard against contamination.

4. A distinctive outer robe worn on ceremonial occasions, as by scholars or clerics.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/gown

A white gown spattered with gore can be the clothing word during childbirth.

A white dress spattered with gore.....that is a bit more confusing.

You also agree she has had a baby and she is dead, yes?

Lyanna had a baby.

There is no reasons for the Lady Lyanna to have a baby in the stories if it is not Jon, son of Rhaegar.

Lyanna having a baby with Rhaegar serves many functions.

There are some clues that Jon was that baby... those clues would lead the story in a certain direction.

There are clues that Jon was Wylla's baby. This would lead the story in a certain direction.

There are clues that Jon was Ashara's baby. This would lead the story in a certain direction.

The wedding happened when Lyanna was pledged. It was a secret from the King because Prince Rhaegar fears his father.

The gods of old favor polygamy

That is a tricky one. The north follows the old gods. They practice marriage between one man and one woman in front of a heart tree.

The free folk follow the old gods. They practice marriage by a man stealing a woman. (No heart tree. No vows)

because Crasters has many wives but he is protected for this.

Craster is an odd duck. His wives are his daughters. This is not practiced anywhere. He sacrifices his sons to the others. I really have no clue what gods he follows.

White gowns are worn by the wife when wed.

white long formal dresses are worn for weddings.... yes this is a gown. The white dress's role in ceremonies in a Sept or in front of a Heart Tree is not given.

Aside from the fact that there is no actual Lyanna and Rhaegar wedding in the books (yet), Flagons was also correct when he pointed out the fact that white wedding dresses aren't used in Westeros, the bride is cloaked with her new husband's coat of arms. Also, if they got married, it probably wasn't the same day she gave birth and died- if that was in fact how the story went down.

With regards to Craster, I think it's implied his gods are the Others, but I don't have the quote handy. Maybe it was said he worshipped cruel gods? Does that ring a bell? But Shiny!!, Craster's "protection" from the Other's has nothing to do with polygamy, it's because he sacrifices his sons. But either way, it didn't do him much good because he got iced anyway.

Agree SOD with your assessment of northern weddings. There's no pledging anything under a heart tree that we know of except with the NW.

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The free folk aren't the wildlings. All free folk are wildlings but not all wildlings are free folk. And Caster isn't one of the free folk, just as the Thenns, the Hornfoot men, or the ice river clansmen aren't. Some wildlings follow the old gods but not all of them. And Craster certainly doesn't follow the old gods.

Right, was thinking the same lines- he pays tribute to the Others, so they don't harm him.

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Yeah, he pretty much says who his gods are. But generally speaking, the folk north of the Wall does not seem to have elaborate marriage rites. Craster's daughters most likely becomes Craster's wives simply by him fucking them. That's what a wife in an ancient/medieval/patriarchal society usually is - female chattel you can fuck without fearing repercussion from other men.



The free folk's marriage rites essentially seem to be to successfully abduct and rape a woman without herself or her male kin stopping you. The Thenns may be somewhat more sophisticated as they are an actual civilization but we don't know anything about their rites (only that Sigorn seemed to accept Mel's chanting at his own wedding).



The First Men south of the Wall are more civilized - my guess is that weirwood marriages are only done there. We cannot deduce that polygamy is okay in the North using Craster's or some other wildlings' polygamy as pretext. Especially not since the wildlings certainly don't know or care about elaborate concept like spouses and mistresses/paramours/concubines or bastard births. I'm pretty sure they don't make a difference between a spouse and a lover, either. That's all the same to them. At least to the free folk where passion and love seems to be considered a good thing.


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There are clues that Jon was Wylla's baby. This would lead the story in a certain direction.

There are clues that Jon was Ashara's baby. This would lead the story in a certain direction.

Yes, but I can't see a good reason for Ned to make Jon's mother identity such a big secret, and not share it with Cat, at least, and Jon would be his son even if he's a bastard, not just his "blood".

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Considering Ned:



Do we actually buy the story that Ned kept Jon's true parentage from those closest to him to protect the boy? That may have been part of the reason despite the fact that a lot of people actually know the truth - Howland Reed, Wylla, possibly others. Howland and Wylla (if she was the wetnurse who went with Jon to Winterfell) returned to Greywater and Starfall, respectively, and may have shared their knowledge with others - for all we know Jojen and Meera might know who Jon is, too. They certainly knew more about Harrenhal than they told Bran...



But Ned soon grew to love and respect Catelyn. Why not tell her the truth? It would have made everything for him easier as well as for Jon and Ned himself. Cat and Ned discuss a lot of other potentially dangerous stuff among each other so there is really little reason to keep that from her.



Was he perhaps wanting to keep Lyanna's child from being Rhaegar's by pretending this wasn't the case?



Howland Reed:



Any idea why Howland - if he cares about prophecy and Jon Snow - never tried to reach out to the boy in the books. I mean, Jojen and Meera were pretty close to the Wall/could have gotten the an additional mission to help prepare this other guy for his destiny, too, if their father believed he had a special destiny.


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Yes, but I can't see a good reason for Ned to make Jon's mother identity such a big secret, and not share it with Cat, at least, and Jon would be his son even if he's a bastard, not just his "blood".

It came as no surprise to her in her first year of marriage to learn Ned had fathered a child on some girl chance met on campaign. He had a man's needs after all and they spent that first year apart, Ned off at war in the south while she remained safe in her father's castle at Riverrun. Her thoughts were more of Robb the infant at her breast, than of the husband she scarcely knew. He was welcome to whatever solace he might find between battles.---aGoT pages 61 and 62

If Jon's mother was not a girl chance met on campaign.... not a result of his "man's needs".... and not solace he found between battles, Telling Cat would have real consequences..

Ned tells Cat Jon is his blood, that is all she needs to know....It was in response to Cat asking if Ashara was Jon's mother. It was a denial of the mother not the son.

Ned met Ashara at Harrenhal....where according to Edric they fell in love and Ashara killed herself of a broken heart...

A girl Ned loved before Cat and continued a relationship after he was married... is not by chance, is not a man's needs, and is not solace.

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Considering Ned:

Do we actually buy the story that Ned kept Jon's true parentage from those closest to him to protect the boy?

Only if Jon is indeed R+L son he really has a good reason to fear for his life, thus keeping it a secret even from Cat.

That may have been part of the reason despite the fact that a lot of people actually know the truth - Howland Reed, Wylla, possibly others. Howland and Wylla (if she was the wetnurse who went with Jon to Winterfell) returned to Greywater and Starfall, respectively, and may have shared their knowledge with others - for all we know Jojen and Meera might know who Jon is, too.

Possible but I doubt Jojen and Meera know about Jon. Reed was Ned's good friend and up to now his (Ned) secret seems well kept. I don't see a reason for them to tell others about Ned's secret, if not to betray him which doesn't make much sense to me.

They certainly knew more about Harrenhal than they told Bran...

They also though the story of KLT was common knowledge for Bran, which suggest was not told to them as a secret.

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It came as no surprise to her in her first year of marriage to learn Ned had fathered a child on some girl chance met on campaign. He had a man's needs after all and they spent that first year apart, Ned off at war in the south while she remained safe in her father's castle at Riverrun. Her thoughts were more of Robb the infant at her breast, than of the husband she scarcely knew. He was welcome to whatever solace he might find between battles.---aGoT pages 61 and 62

If Jon's mother was not a girl chance met on campaign.... not a result of his "man's needs".... and not solace he found between battles, Telling Cat would have real consequences..

Ned tells Cat Jon is his blood, that is all she needs to know....It was in response to Cat asking if Ashara was Jon's mother. It was a denial of the mother not the son.

Ned met Ashara at Harrenhal....where according to Edric they fell in love and Ashara killed herself of a broken heart...

A girl Ned loved before Cat and continued a relationship after he was married... is not by chance, is not a man's needs, and is not solace.

A fair point. And, given that Ned silenced the rumors about Ashara at Winterfell, one could assume he did still have feelings for her, as Cat assumed.

But Cat's guessing and her reactions--if she's already guessed, why would Ned refuse to tell her? Regardless of the "man on campaign=okay" paradigm. She "knows" he loved Ashara before campaign--if she's already guessed (and guessed rightly), why keep up the lie?

It might be part of his psyche--Ned ain't chatty. But even when we are in his head, Martin doesn't show us much if anything re: Ashara. Lyanna and family, yes. Even a tiny glimpse re: Rhaegar. But not much Ashara.

That's hardly conclusive. And Ned's refusal to confide in Cat, especially later in their marriage, always seems odd to me. Still, can't rule Ned out entirely--at least not on the basis of the secret. To me, the secret from Cat seems odd, even if Rhaegar=daddy.

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If Jon's mother was not a girl chance met on campaign.... not a result of his "man's needs".... and not solace he found between battles, Telling Cat would have real consequences..

What real consequences? Cat was still hurted, after all these years, and mostly so because of his silence. What's was going to be worse?

Ned tells Cat Jon is his blood, that is all she needs to know....It was in response to Cat asking if Ashara was Jon's mother. It was a denial of the mother not the son.

Not really, that's the point. It's Martin playing with words here because blood could be your sister, brother, nephew etc., while son has only one meaning. You could very well say "He's my son and that is all you need to know". That's a clear denial of the mother but not the son.

Ned met Ashara at Harrenhal....where according to Edric they fell in love and Ashara killed herself of a broken heart...

Which still doesn't provide any good reason why would he keep Jon's mother identity a secret.

A girl Ned loved before Cat and continued a relationship after he was married... is not by chance, is not a man's needs, and is not solace.

Idem as above. It doesn't answer the real question here. Whether it was love or man's need the "damage" has been done. He fathered a son. Keeping it a secret after all these years it's the main issue with Cat. He is still keeping secrets with her.

Apart from all this, my main issue with other theories is: so this whole "secrecy" about Jon's identity, throughout the books, would be because Ned cheated on Cat?!

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To me, the secret from Cat seems odd, even if Rhaegar=daddy.

If Jon is Rhaegar's son it's not odd. Maybe he promised to Lyanna not to tell anyone, but most important is that Jon's life would be in danger if his maternity/paternity is known because he would be half Targ. Yes, it's Cat and he loves and trust her, but not when it comes to her own children. I think we have prove that Cat would do anything when it comes to protect her own children (which is normal, mind you. I'm not criticising her) and Ned knows her very well.

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A fair point. And, given that Ned silenced the rumors about Ashara at Winterfell, one could assume he did still have feelings for her, as Cat assumed.

But Cat's guessing and her reactions--if she's already guessed, why would Ned refuse to tell her? Regardless of the "man on campaign=okay" paradigm. She "knows" he loved Ashara before campaign--if she's already guessed (and guessed rightly), why keep up the lie?

It might be part of his psyche--Ned ain't chatty. But even when we are in his head, Martin doesn't show us much if anything re: Ashara. Lyanna and family, yes. Even a tiny glimpse re: Rhaegar. But not much Ashara.

That's hardly conclusive. And Ned's refusal to confide in Cat, especially later in their marriage, always seems odd to me. Still, can't rule Ned out entirely--at least not on the basis of the secret. To me, the secret from Cat seems odd, even if Rhaegar=daddy.

Cat did not guess. She heard rumors about Ned and Ashara at Starfall.... Nothing at all about Harrenhal. After Cat told where she heard it she never heard anything again.

When you rip out a man's tongue, you do not prove him a liar. You prove you fear what he has to say.

Ned did not lie. He did not even deny it. He refused to answer. The only lie would be if Jon is not his bastard.

I can't answer as to what Ned did not think. He did not think of anybody as Jon's mother. He thought briefly about his love for Cat--- after 15 years of marriage and five kids,

at any rate-- this was not an actual theory.... it was an answer to an assertion that "nothing else makes sense but RLJ"

There are other options--- The Ashara case gets dismissed out of hand... but it really is not that simple if we look at evidence...

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Maybe he promised to Lyanna not to tell anyone

.... no matter who the father was.

All this talk about "why would Ned keep it a secret" when it's obvious why he's keeping it a secret... because it's kind of a secret.

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What real consequences? Cat was still hurted, after all these years, and mostly so because of his silence. What's was going to be worse?

Not really, that's the point. It's Martin playing with words here because blood could be your sister, brother, nephew etc., while son has only one meaning. You could very well say "He's my son and that is all you need to know". That's a clear denial of the mother but not the son.

Which still doesn't provide any good reason why would he keep Jon's mother identity a secret.

Idem as above. It doesn't answer the real question here. Whether it was love or man's need the "damage" has been done. He fathered a son. Keeping it a secret after all these years it's the main issue with Cat. He is still keeping secrets with her.

Apart from all this, my main issue with other theories is: so this whole "secrecy" about Jon's identity, throughout the books, would be because Ned cheated on Cat?!

What real consequences?

Cat was still hurted, after all these years, and mostly so because of his silence.

"That cut deep." Refers to Jon already at Winterfell when Cat arrived

Whoever his mother was, Ned must have loved her fiercely, for nothing Catelyn said could persuade him to send the boy away. That was the one thing she could never forgive him.--aGoT page 62

Jon's presence was what hurt Cat.

What's was going to be worse?

Knowing who the mother was....

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Cat did not guess. She heard rumors about Ned and Ashara at Starfall.... Nothing at all about Harrenhal. After Cat told where she heard it she never heard anything again.

When you rip out a man's tongue, you do not prove him a liar. You prove you fear what he has to say.

Ned did not lie. He did not even deny it. He refused to answer. The only lie would be if Jon is not his bastard.

I can't answer as to what Ned did not think. He did not think of anybody as Jon's mother. He thought briefly about his love for Cat--- after 15 years of marriage and five kids,

at any rate-- this was not an actual theory.... it was an answer to an assertion that "nothing else makes sense but RLJ"

There are other options--- The Ashara case gets dismissed out of hand... but it really is not that simple if we look at evidence...

My apologies for imprecisions in language--you're right--he didn't lie.

And Martin deliberately keeps all sorts of things in Ned's head out of our knowledge.

But I agree that dismissing Ashara out of hand makes little sense. The timelines are wiggly enough, people are mobile enough--dismissing her per se doesn't work. Not without more evidence.

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If Jon is Rhaegar's son it's not odd. Maybe he promised to Lyanna not to tell anyone, but most important is that Jon's life would be in danger if his maternity/paternity is known because he would be half Targ. Yes, it's Cat and he loves and trust her, but not when it comes to her own children. I think we have prove that Cat would do anything when it comes to protect her own children (which is normal, mind you. I'm not criticising her) and Ned knows her very well.

Still think Ned could have told her, if left to his own devices. I think the possible promise to Lyanna is the most likely answer to the secret--that he'd keep it no matter the cost. He does mention/think about prices paid, etc.

.... no matter who the father was.

Yes--again, the secret per se doesn't seem to define who the father is--unless I've read you wrong.

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/

Yes--again, the secret per se doesn't seem to define who the father is--unless I've read you wrong.

No, that's what I meant. It could be the most inconsequential of affairs. Ned and a Dornish wetnurse. Lyanna and some random boy. The only thing we know is that Ned is keeping it a secret, whether that's his decision, or Lyanna asked him to promise.

If someone more important were involved, yes there could be degrees of consequences, but the secret can stand alone.

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.... no matter who the father was.

All this talk about "why would Ned keep it a secret" when it's obvious why he's keeping it a secret... because it's kind of a secret.

??? Sorry, what's your point?

Edit: Just read your answer to sly.

at any rate-- this was not an actual theory.... it was an answer to an assertion that "nothing else makes sense but RLJ"
There are other options--- The Ashara case gets dismissed out of hand... but it really is not that simple if we look at evidence...

That wasn't my assertion. My assertion was that it doesn't make much sense, to me at least, that he would keep it such a big secret from Cat if he was Ashara's and Ned son, and it makes even less sense if the whole secrecy thing - which seems quite a key story - is reduced to: because he cheated on Cat for love and not for men's need. I fail to see how does that serve the whole narrative. That's all.

It's not a football match and I'm not rooting for this or that theory. I see unknowns in R+L=J theory, but I see flaws in other cases.

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What real consequences?

Whoever his mother was, Ned must have loved her fiercely, for nothing Catelyn said could persuade him to send the boy away. That was the one thing she could never forgive him.--aGoT page 62

Jon's presence was what hurt Cat.

But that's not a consequence. That is already happening whether he kept Jon's mother a secret or not. She is convinced that Ned did loved her fiercely, and even more so by his silence.

What's was going to be worse?

Knowing who the mother was....

Why? And how does that serve the narrative, again my main issue. Unless you think his secret has to do only with him being unfaithful to Cat.

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