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R+L=J v.146


Ygrain

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I'll paste it.

Maybe he promised to Lyanna not to tell anyone, no matter who the father was.

No, I got it when I read your reply to sly. I edit my OP. :)

Yes, as I said, it could simply be because he promised her. Being half Targ it enforces the secret and all the consequences might come with it.

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No, I got it when I read your reply to sly. I edit my OP. :)

Yes, as I said, it could simply be because he promised her. Being half Targ it enforces the secret and all the consequences might come with it. I understand what you mean.

I understand what you mean. But there is no reason to need reinforcement for a secret if you fully intend to keep it a secret. A secret can stand alone.

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There are other options--- The Ashara case gets dismissed out of hand... but it really is not that simple if we look at evidence...

It should not get dismissed out of hand. She is one of two women actually named as Jon's mother in the books, and Lyanna is not the other one. There is plenty of evidence that points to Ashara as Jon's mother, and Ned absolutely has an incentive to lie about her if she is Jon's mother. Treason.

The major problem with believing Ashara is Jon's mother comes not from the books themselves, but rather from the timeline. When Martin tells us Jon is eight or nine months older, or thereabouts than Daenerys and we know Daernerys is born nine moons after the sack, then it doesn't take much more than doing a little subtraction to know that means Jon is conceived eight or nine months or so before the sack. We are told the war lasted around a year, so this puts Jon's conception around three to four months into the rebellion. If Ashara is Jon's mother, and Ned is Jon's father, they had to meet sometime within the rebellion without people on their respective sides knowing about it. This both explains why Ned would not tell anyone about it, and also makes it hard to believe at the same time. Did Ned get lost from his troops during this period? Was he are Robert separated during this time of the war? How does a well known loyalist walk into a rebel general's camp and no one blinks an eye? On and on there are questions that need answers to make this remotely believable, but, it can in no way be dismissed as a possibility.

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No, that's what I meant. It could be the most inconsequential of affairs. Ned and a Dornish wetnurse. Lyanna and some random boy. The only thing we know is that Ned is keeping it a secret, whether that's his decision, or Lyanna asked him to promise.

If someone more important were involved, yes there could be degrees of consequences, but the secret can stand alone.

Ha--cross-purposes left and right. The above is actually what I was getting at. You're just much clearer.

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Whatever happened to Wylla, and how long did she stay in WF?

And who nursed Robb? What other wetnurse helped Cat?

We don't know if Wylla was in WF. We only know she served the Daynes at Starfall since before Edric was born.

No mention of Robb's wetnurse.

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I understand what you mean. But there is no reason to need reinforcement for a secret if you fully intend to keep it a secret. A secret can stand alone.

True. But the thing is that this secret seems to be a key of some importance (if not a big deal, but I don't want to go that far without more informations). It does sound that it will have a bigger impact on the whole narrative. That is why I think there is more to it that just something that would affect Ned and Cat relationship (which was already affected by it tbh, and Ned paid a price) only, or Jon for that matter.

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We don't know if Wylla was in WF. We only know she served the Daynes at Starfall since before Edric was born.

No mention of Robb's wetnurse.

Never thought about Robb. Maybe Cat was jealous to find Jon had a wet nurse while she and Robb did not adding another reason to resent Jon. I'm sure Cat was weighed down by the lack of a nurse and soured over her predicament. What a boob. She should have learned to go with the flow.

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Whatever happened to Wylla, and how long did she stay in WF?

And who nursed Robb? What other wetnurse helped Cat?

It could have been Wylla at Winterfell. The time frame that Ned Dayne gives is open to enough time for Wylla to travel to Starfall after nursing Jon, but for some reason it doesn't seem right, to me.

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Never thought about Robb. Maybe Cat was jealous to find Jon had a wet nurse while she and Robb did not adding another reason to resent Jon. I'm sure Cat was weighed down by the lack of a nurse and soured over her predicament. What a boob. She should have learned to go with the flow.

hahaaa... punny stuff

When Aemon Steelsong AKA Monster needs a wetnurse, doesn't take long until the Flint's provide two. I don't think they're particularly rare creatures.

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True. But the thing is that this secret seems to be a key of some importance (if not a big deal, but I don't want to go that far without more informations). It does sound that it will have a bigger impact on the whole narrative. That is why I think there is more to it that just something that would affect Ned and Cat relationship (which was already affected by it tbh, and Ned paid a price) only, or Jon for that matter.

For me, I think if Jon was a secret Targ, Ned would've worried more about hiding him from Robert. I'm not sure what those promises are, either. One could have been about burying her in WF.

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That's hardly conclusive. And Ned's refusal to confide in Cat, especially later in their marriage, always seems odd to me. Still, can't rule Ned out entirely--at least not on the basis of the secret. To me, the secret from Cat seems odd, even if Rhaegar=daddy.

Ned thought, If it came to that, the life of some child I did not know, against Robb and Sansa and Arya and Bran and Rickon, what would I do? Even more so, what would Catelyn do, if it were Jon's life, against the children of her body? He did not know. He prayed he never would.

I think that pretty much covers it. Why would he even think of Jon in that context? Cersei wanted to see Bran dead to protect her children from Robert's anger. Perhaps if Cat knew that Jon was Rhaegar's son, she'd want to see Jon dead to protect her children from Robert's anger.

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I think that pretty much covers it. Why would he even think of Jon in that context? Cersei wanted to see Bran dead to protect her children from Robert's anger. Perhaps if Cat knew that Jon was Rhaegar's son, she'd want to see Jon dead to protect her children from Robert's anger.

I don't deny Ned worries re: Cat's temper. Or that he has cause. But the quote you gave seems to hold whether Jon is Rhaegar's son, or Arthur's son, or Ned's and Ashara's kid--this fear would hold. She doesn't care for Jon as Ned's kid, refuses to keep him at Winterfell as Ned's kid. Ned seems to have concern re: Jon whether Cat knows the "secret" or not. Can't see how the fear of Cat's turning on Jon is innately tied to her finding out about his parentage (assuming it's Rhaegar). Cat would already choose any of her own over Jon--ETA--especially in a life or death situation.

Edited for clarity. Hopefully.

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For me, I think if Jon was a secret Targ, Ned would've worried more about hiding him from Robert. I'm not sure what those promises are, either. One could have been about burying her in WF.

And he is, by not telling anyone and saying to the world that Jon is his bastard.

That's the best hiding you can get. In plain sight.

Anyway, I think we desperately need the next book. :D

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I don't deny Ned worries re: Cat's temper. Or that he has cause. But the quote you gave seems to hold whether Jon is Rhaegar's son, or Arthur's son, or Ned's and Ashara's kid--this fear would hold. She doesn't care for Jon as Ned's kid, refuses to keep him at Winterfell as Ned's kid. Ned seems to have concern re: Jon whether Cat knows the "secret" or not. Can't see how the fear of Cat's turning on Jon is innately tied to her finding out about his parentage (assuming it's Rhaegar). Cat would already choose any of her own over Jon--ETA--especially in a life or death situation.

Edited for clarity. Hopefully.

very well stated! The irony is that her own son fulfilled (?) one of her biggest fears by legitimizing Jon. I know the jury is still out on that one along with his will, but that didn't stop Cat from having to face it.

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For me, I think if Jon was a secret Targ, Ned would've worried more about hiding him from Robert.

Like when he refuses to consider taking him to King's Landing, and fights with Catelyn about him staying in Winterfell? Before Robert comes to Winterfell we don't know if he has ever seen Jon, do we?

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Like when he refuses to consider taking him to King's Landing, and fights with Catelyn about him staying in Winterfell? Before Robert comes to Winterfell we don't know if he has ever seen Jon, do we?

They hadn't seen each other in years, it's not like they all met up for Thanksgiving every year and sent out baby photos.

Ned doesn't go out of his way to hide Jon at the welcome feast in AGoT. Cersei notices him, and Cersei certainly knew Rhaegar.

What would Robert have said? That Jon looks just like Ned?

Ned could have wanted Jon to remain in the North, and not be subjected to further harassment for being a bastard in KL. He outright says that last part.

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very well stated! The irony is that her own son fulfilled (?) one of her biggest fears by legitimizing Jon. I know the jury is still out on that one along with his will, but that didn't stop Cat from having to face it.

:cheers: Yes--very ironic. Cat frequently makes me admire her, pity her, and feel exasperated all at once.

That being said, though the lie to Cat seems odd to me regardless of Jon's parentage, the lie to everyone else--the staff, friends, kids--that still makes sense if Rhaegar is the father. Or if others are father, too, depending on Lyanna's wishes.

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Cat would already choose any of her own over Jon--ETA--especially in a life or death situation.

Like any mother, for that matter, but the point here I think is that (if we were to agree that R+L=J of course) Ned knows that if Jon's identity is revealed, even to someone as close as Cat, that life or death situation becomes more than just a probability. If Cat wanted Jon away when she thinks he's Ned's son, what would she do if she learns that he's a Targ also?

Now that I'm thinking of, I never thought about it actually. What do you people think, what would she've done?

p.s. I loved Cat. I don't know why she gets so much hate.

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