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R+L=J v.146


Ygrain

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Well Cat was pretty awful to Jon, that's when I got irritated with her, and she started a lot of problems when she abducted Tyrion. She acts rashly without thinking things through. Setting Jaime free was a big loss for Robb, but I better stop before I get a spanking for talking about something other than RLJ.

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For me, I think if Jon was a secret Targ, Ned would've worried more about hiding him from Robert. I'm not sure what those promises are, either. One could have been about burying her in WF.

More importantly, from the Lannisters.

We have Ned's great concern that Tywin will have 2 huge armies under their command, seeing Robert was considering giving Lord of the Vale to Jaime after Jon Arryn's death.

And we know Cersei...

“Snow, the boy is called,” Pycelle said unhelpfully.

“I glimpsed him once at Winterfell,” the queen said, “though the Starks did their best to hide him. He looks very like his father.” Her husband’s by-blows (bastards) had his look as well, though at least Robert had the grace to keep them out of sight. Once, after that sorry business with the cat, he had made some noises about bringing some baseborn daughter of his to court. “Do as you please,” she’d told him, “but you may find that the city is not a healthy place for a growing girl.” The bruise those words had won her had been hard to hide from Jaime, but they heard no more about the bastard girl. Catelyn Tully was a mouse, or she would have smothered this Jon Snow in his cradle. Instead, she’s left the filthy task to me.

**Cersei gave a little threat to Robert about bringing his bastard girl to court. What would've happened if Cersei finds out about Jon being Rhaegar and Lyanna's son?

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I think we're also assuming that Ned is lying about Jon's parentage. As far as I can tell, he's not saying anything to anyone, except to Robert, who he told it was Wylla. Whether Jon is Ned's or Lyanna's, saying that Jon is his blood isn't lying either.

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More importantly, from the Lannisters.

We have Ned's great concern that Tywin will have 2 huge armies under their command, seeing Robert was considering giving Lord of the Vale to Jaime after Jon Arryn's death.

And we know Cersei...

“Snow, the boy is called,” Pycelle said unhelpfully.

“I glimpsed him once at Winterfell,” the queen said, “though the Starks did their best to hide him. He looks very like his father.” Her husband’s by-blows (bastards) had his look as well, though at least Robert had the grace to keep them out of sight. Once, after that sorry business with the cat, he had made some noises about bringing some baseborn daughter of his to court. “Do as you please,” she’d told him, “but you may find that the city is not a healthy place for a growing girl.” The bruise those words had won her had been hard to hide from Jaime, but they heard no more about the bastard girl. Catelyn Tully was a mouse, or she would have smothered this Jon Snow in his cradle. Instead, she’s left the filthy task to me.

**Cersei gave a little threat to Robert about bringing his bastard girl to court. What would've happened if Cersei finds out about Jon being Rhaegar and Lyanna's son?

Exactly my point, thank you! And yet Jon wasn't kept away from her or Jaime when they came. He was right in front of them. Ned would've been worried they'd recognize a Targ in their midst.

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Well Cat was pretty awful to Jon, that's when I got irritated with her, and she started a lot of problems when she abducted Tyrion. She acts rashly without thinking things through. Setting Jaime free was a big loss for Robb, but I better stop before I get a spanking for talking about something other than RLJ.

All things that any woman and mother (most of them anyway and it doesn't mean they're bad) would do in her position. Easy to judge when you're not in the same position and you do not have all the facts and evidence in front of you, like a reader has for example.

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Like any mother, for that matter, but the point here I think is that (if we were to agree that R+L=J of course) Ned knows that if Jon's identity is revealed, even to someone as close as Cat, that life or death situation becomes more than just a probability. If Cat wanted Jon away when she thinks he's Ned's son, what would she do if she learns that he's a Targ also?

Now that I'm thinking of, I never thought about it actually. What do you people think, what would she've done?

p.s. I loved Cat. I don't know why she gets so much hate.

True--but Cat does not defy Ned about keeping Jon. Not until she's stressed to her limit after Bran's fall--then she snaps and refuses to keep Jon at Winterfell when Ned leaves. Meaning--she defers to Ned and respects his wishes, even as she resents his love for Jon.

Now--to go out on a limb--can't see how that respect would diminish if she found out he loved his nephew--could actually reduce the resentment. And--still out on my limb--why on earth would she ever tell about Rhaegar being Jon's father? She might rage at Ned in private, but if anyone finds out--she knows what happened to the Targaryen kids. Sending Jon away wouldn't reduce Robert's anger at Ned and family if Robert found out. Sending Jon away would just make Ned angry.

Bottom line--hypotheticals are always messy--but I do think there's at least a possibility that, stressed as Cat might be, can't see how she'd have much leverage to get Jon sent away. And turning Jon in would be suicidal.

NOTE--I agree on the hatred against Cat. She may frustrate me, but I still sympathize with her frequently.

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More importantly, from the Lannisters.

We have Ned's great concern that Tywin will have 2 huge armies under their command, seeing Robert was considering giving Lord of the Vale to Jaime after Jon Arryn's death.

And we know Cersei...

“Snow, the boy is called,” Pycelle said unhelpfully.

“I glimpsed him once at Winterfell,” the queen said, “though the Starks did their best to hide him. He looks very like his father.” Her husband’s by-blows (bastards) had his look as well, though at least Robert had the grace to keep them out of sight. Once, after that sorry business with the cat, he had made some noises about bringing some baseborn daughter of his to court. “Do as you please,” she’d told him, “but you may find that the city is not a healthy place for a growing girl.” The bruise those words had won her had been hard to hide from Jaime, but they heard no more about the bastard girl. Catelyn Tully was a mouse, or she would have smothered this Jon Snow in his cradle. Instead, she’s left the filthy task to me.

**Cersei gave a little threat to Robert about bringing his bastard girl to court. What would've happened if Cersei finds out about Jon being Rhaegar and Lyanna's son?

I honestly kind of hope Cersei does live long enough to find out about Jon Snow's parentage. That meltdown would be glorious to see. In other words: nothing good.

As for Cat's reaction, I think that a lot would depend on when she finds out and under what circumstances.

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Exactly my point, thank you! And yet Jon wasn't kept away from her or Jaime when they came. He was right in front of them. Ned would've been worried they'd recognize a Targ in their midst.

Why? He doesn't look like a classic Targ.

True--but Cat does not defy Ned about keeping Jon. Not until she's stressed to her limit after Bran's fall--then she snaps and refuses to keep Jon at Winterfell when Ned leaves. Meaning--she defers to Ned and respects his wishes, even as she resents his love for Jon.

Now--to go out on a limb--can't see how that respect would diminish if she found out he loved his nephew--could actually reduce the resentment. And--still out on my limb--why on earth would she ever tell about Rhaegar being Jon's father? She might rage at Ned in private, but if anyone finds out--she knows what happened to the Targaryen kids. Sending Jon away wouldn't reduce Robert's anger at Ned and family if Robert found out. Sending Jon away would just make Ned angry.

Bottom line--hypotheticals are always messy--but I do think there's at least a possibility that, stressed as Cat might be, can't see how she'd have much leverage to get Jon sent away. And turning Jon in would be suicidal.

NOTE--I agree on the hatred against Cat. She may frustrate me, but I still sympathize with her frequently.

No, I wasn't suggesting that knowing for sure the risk she will definitely sent Jon away. I'm thinking something much worse.

It may very well make her more understandable and complicit with Ned, as you suggest, but it might also make her completely unpredictable and make her take actions which might seems right to her. I think it's a 50-50 (and I'm being generous) but it's a big risk to take.

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They hadn't seen each other in years, it's not like they all met up for Thanksgiving every year and sent out baby photos.

Ned doesn't go out of his way to hide Jon at the welcome feast in AGoT. Cersei notices him, and Cersei certainly knew Rhaegar.

What would Robert have said? That Jon looks just like Ned?

Ned could have wanted Jon to remain in the North, and not be subjected to further harassment for being a bastard in KL. He outright says that last part.

That possibly, something about Jon looked or would remind Robert of Lyanna. I always found this bit interesting from Jon's first chapter during the feast.

“His father was observing all the courtesies, but there was tightness in him that Jon had seldom seen before. He said little, looking out over the hall with hooded eyes, seeing nothing. Two seats away, the king had been drinking heavily all night………<snip>……Father took the king down to the crypts this afternoon.

This is the first time Robert and Jon would be in close proximity together,under the same roof.I'm guessing that Ned was probably looking for where Jon might have been seated in relation to Robert.Perhaps this was the reason for Ned's behavior.Jon was all the way on the back benches ofcourse so he was well hidden.

Except maybe from Cersie's eyes who noticed him ofcourse.

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Exactly my point, thank you! And yet Jon wasn't kept away from her or Jaime when they came. He was right in front of them. Ned would've been worried they'd recognize a Targ in their midst.

Why? Jon looks as Stark as Stark can be. Robert doesn't question anyone's having bastards (though he misses it with his own wife) and Ned knows this. Knows Jon looks like him. Knows Robert won't be looking--Robert trusts Ned. Jon looks like Ned. Why on earth would Ned worry? Targ or no Targ?

Ned does not know Jaime or Cersei well--but he knows what Jon looks like. Knows the Lannister arrogance. Can't see why he'd worry they'd start digging into Jon--sans silver hair or purple eyes, why would they care? They care about themselves--no reason to worry re: Jon.

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No, I wasn't suggesting that knowing for sure the risk is that she will definitely sent Jon away. I'm thinking something much worse.

It may very well make her more understandable and complicit with Ned, as you suggest, but it might also make her completely unpredictable and make her take actions which might seems right to her. I think it's a 50-50 (and I'm being generous) but it's a big risk to take.

I don't deny Cat's impulsiveness. But snatching Tyrion when she's on the road and calling the shots is a far cry from exposing Jon to Robert via raven when she's at Winterfell. With Ned. Watching her re: the secret. With Ned's influence. Killing Jon or turning him in seems like a sure fire way of getting herself squashed. Sending a raven or messenger to King's Landing--she went herself to avoid the problems of a raven when she needed to tell Ned about the dagger. Just can't see why she'd tell on Jon. Too many problems and obstacles, no matter how impulsive she is.

But I think if Ned is keeping the secret of Jon's parentage for Lyanna, it's primarily because he promised Lyanna--at least some of the secrets have cost him. Concerns over Cat would probably come second to the promise--maybe a close second, but second.

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Why? He doesn't look like a classic Targ.

Which is another great point. He doesn't look like a Targ, in fact Jon is described as looking more like Ned several times:

Tyrion:

"Lannister studied his face. 'Yes', he said. 'I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers.'

Cat:

"Jon was never out of sight, and as he grew, he looked more like Ned than any of the true born sons she bore him."

Ned:

"Riding through the rainy night, Ned saw Jon Snow's face in front of him, so like a younger version of his own."

And then Ned thinks- if the gods frowned so on bastards, he thought dully, why did they fill men with such lusts?

Sounds to me like Ned is feeling guilty about something, just my $.02

ETA: why would Ned even risk raising a Stargaryen not knowing if he would grow up looking like Rhaegar or not? Pretty sure he'd make sure he was safely hidden away to keep from Robert.

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But I think if Ned is keeping the secret of Jon's parentage for Lyanna, it's primarily because he promised Lyanna--at least some of the secrets have cost him. Concerns over Cat would probably come second to the promise--maybe a close second, but second.

I don't know if that's the primary reason but knowing Ned, at least till now, I agree with this.

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Which is another great point. He doesn't look like a Targ, in fact Jon is described as looking more like Ned several times:

Tyrion:

"Lannister studied his face. 'Yes', he said. 'I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers.'

Cat:

"Jon was never out of sight, and as he grew, he looked more like Ned than any of the true born sons she bore him."

Ned:

"Riding through the rainy night, Ned saw Jon Snow's face in front of him, so like a younger version of his own."

And then Ned thinks- if the gods frowned so on bastards, he thought dully, why did they fill men with such lusts?

Sounds to me like Ned is feeling guilty about something, just my $.02

ETA: why would Ned even risk raising a Stargaryen not knowing if he would grow up looking like Rhaegar or not? Pretty sure he'd make sure he was safely hidden away to keep from Robert.

1. RE: Jon's appearance. I don't deny that Ned's being Jon's father is a possibility. But if Jon's looking like Ned means Ned's his dad, then Arya's looking like Lyanna would mean Lyanna is her undead mama. And if we're going on looks alone--are the rest of Cat's kids (other than Arya) not Ned's because they look so Tully? Just can't see how Jon's looks are paternally determinative in context with the other Stark kids. If he were a Baratheon bastard--sure. That's established in the text. In this context, among Starks--no. Not determinative.

2. Granted, Ned could be feeling guilty here. Could be feeling sympathy over what Jon's going through and how it's so common. Or both. Or this could be acknowledgement that he doesn't hold that big a grudge against Jon's father--maybe Lyanna loved him. Bottom line: that scene could be guilt. Could be other things.

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I don't know if that's the primary reason but knowing Ned, at least till now, I agree with this.

:cheers: Completely fair. And, given how much we still have to learn, our understanding of Ned's motives could change a lot.

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Which is another great point. He doesn't look like a Targ, in fact Jon is described as looking more like Ned several times:

Tyrion:

"Lannister studied his face. 'Yes', he said. 'I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers.'

Cat:

"Jon was never out of sight, and as he grew, he looked more like Ned than any of the true born sons she bore him."

Ned:

"Riding through the rainy night, Ned saw Jon Snow's face in front of him, so like a younger version of his own."

And then Ned thinks- if the gods frowned so on bastards, he thought dully, why did they fill men with such lusts?

Well, he's also half Stark and is said to be similar to Arya who is similar to Lyanna in return. Ned also looked like her. So, it doesn't prove anything. I myself have taken almost everything from my mom. :D Besides, not all Targs were with silver hair etc.

ETA: why would Ned even risk raising a Stargaryen not knowing if he would grow up looking like Rhaegar or not? Pretty sure he'd make sure he was safely hidden away to keep from Robert.

Because he was his blood but more important he promised to his sister while she was dying? It looks like a pretty good reason to me. If he would've looked like a Targ, later on, I think he would've dealt with it. How? I don't know but I don't think that's important right now. The fact is that he doesn't look like a Targ and we're told not all of them have similar looks.

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:cheers: Completely fair. And, given how much we still have to learn, our understanding of Ned's motives could change a lot.

True. I'm 90% (if not even more) convinced that R+L=J is true. However, because I'm a crime& thriller voracious reader and lover, I know that the most obvious solution is not the right one in most cases and this theory does seem very obvious to me. But I'm hoping that this is not so much about the secret per se as it as about the impact that would have in the story to come.

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Well, he's also half Stark and is said to be similar to Arya who was similar to Lyanna. So, it doesn't prove nothing. I myself have taken almost everything from my mom. :-D

Besides, not all Targ's were with silver hair etc.

True, but Ned doesn't know this when Jon is a baby.

Because he was his blood but more important he promised to his sister while she was dying? It looks like a pretty good reason to me.

How do we know this was the promise? Do we even know for sure Lyanna had a baby?

If he would've looked like a Targ, later on, I think he would've dealt with it. How? I don't know but I don't think that's important right now.

It kind of is important if the theory is that Ned made a promise to keep a baby safe that was half Targ. Treason.

The fact is that he doesn't look like a Targ and we're told not all of them have similar looks.

So because he doesn't look like a Targ he's a Targ?

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1. RE: Jon's appearance. I don't deny that Ned's being Jon's father is a possibility. But if Jon's looking like Ned means Ned's his dad, then Arya's looking like Lyanna would mean Lyanna is her undead mama. And if we're going on looks alone--are the rest of Cat's kids (other than Arya) not Ned's because they look so Tully? Just can't see how Jon's looks are paternally determinative in context with the other Stark kids. If he were a Baratheon bastard--sure. That's established in the text. In this context, among Starks--no. Not determinative.

2. Granted, Ned could be feeling guilty here. Could be feeling sympathy over what Jon's going through and how it's so common. Or both. Or this could be acknowledgement that he doesn't hold that big a grudge against Jon's father--maybe Lyanna loved him. Bottom line: that scene could be guilt. Could be other things.

I agree, you make good points. We don't have any records of Targ-Stark marriages, either to reference. Of course it's possible that Jon is Rhaegar and Lyanna's, but I think it's telling how descriptions of how Jon looks like Ned keeps popping up again and again. Even Crasters notices.

Also, in the brothel chapter, Ned is thinking about Rhaegar, and mentions he hasn't thought of him in years. Now if Jon was Rhaegar's son, and he sees Ned every single day, wouldn't he be a constant reminder of Rhaegar? Not something Ned would probably forget, especially if he's agonizing over a promise about Jon being the love child of Rhaegar and Lyanna.

I could actually imagine Lyanna eloping with someone more common, as Arya is compared to her, and Arya likes to hang out with the plebes.

I dunno. GRRM isn't supposed to do obvious, and RLJ seems to be the obvious answer from what I'm gathering over here...I think it's a trap! :)

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True. I'm 90% (if not even more) convinced that R+L=J is true. However, because I'm a crime& thriller voracious reader and lover, I know that the most obvious solution is not the right one in most cases and this theory does seem very obvious to me. But I'm hoping that this is not so much about the secret per se as it as about the impact that would have in the story to come.

:cheers: Cheers! This is something we can agree on!

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