BRAN’S GROWING POWERS AFTER his FINAL POV in ADwD

[LongRider]

It is very intriguing, I do feel I'm seeing some evidence regards the personification of the wind, and that's it's related to BR/Old Gods/Greenseer x.  There is the possibility of looking into stuff too much, bemused has noted on this thread before that sometimes the wind is just the wind.  It's the descriptive text I'm looking for, human or animal traits in the wind. Things like howling, whispering [through trees even better], biting, pushing, etc.......  All the possible text is worth looking at closely, and as you say a reread section is the best place for it.  Let's hope we continue to find plenty of evidence.    

I agree that sometimes a banana is just a banana.  However, picking things apart sentence by sentence is what GRRM's fan do!      Plus, GRRM can hides clues where you either don't expect them, or in an info dump and they're missed.  I went looking for wind in Bran's vision, and found an alive weirwood looking at him instead!  It's what keeps this fun. 

And what animates the trees and the crows? Where does their magic come from and who does it affect is the question.  It affects Bran, for instance, but the how and why is the fun part to figure out.    

 

[Wizz-The-Smith]

Also, about Bran's growing powers, I want to share a paragraph with you (I don't know if it has been mentioned before here 'cause I haven't had time to read everything):

Here BR is saying that he doesn't know when Bran will be able to have "professional" visions. But I wonder if it is a subtle (and foreshadowing) way from GRRM to say than even BR doesn't know up to which point Bran's powers will grow. After all, he hasn't seen it.

Two possibilities:

1. Bran will be the greatest greenseer of all time -Will he be changing the stablished rules of greenseeing?

2. Bran will never be a greenseer and leave the cave.

Even both 1 and 2 are not mutually exclusive. (He could change the rules and leave the cave to save the world).

That's an important paragraph I think, it asks the question 'when will he learn all this cool stuff?' well I think he is such a prodigy that he was in the wind in the very next chapter, Jon VII.  I have broken down these chapters half way down page two of this thread, after my first few posts. 

As shown on this thread and others [above Longie post] there is a lot of bird imagery that has built up around Bran. So we should perhaps expect to see such text if Bran was in the wind.  If it takes your fancy, have a look at that post [Bran III + Jon VII together] and also Evita quotes that post later on and gives her version which is well worth reading!  As are all the posts on this thread if you get the time. 

Here's a hint, this is the beginning on Jon VII ADWD.

The sun had broken through near midday, after seven days of dark skies and snow flurries...............
Seven hundred feet up Jon Snow stood looking down upon the haunted forest.  A north wind swirled through the trees below, sending thin white plumes of snow crystals flying from the highest branches, like icy banners.
 
 A sudden 'gust 'of wind set Edd's 'cloak' to flapping noisily. '' Best go down, m'lord.  This wind's like to 'push' us off the wall, and I never did learn the knack of flying.''  

Note the wind obviously, the birds eye view, plumes [feathers, thanks Evita] flying from high branches, the cloak [prologue the cloak was half alive] flapping noisily like bird might, the physical nature of the wind [push, not blow] Bran had a problem learning the knack of flying a mere handful of pages ago etc...............................................   Have a read and see what you think.    

 

[Meera of Tarth]

 

Hi Wizz! Yes, I'll re-read those two chapters together to have a better perspective

If any of you suggest another Bran chapter for re-reading, let me now too!

 

[Wizz-The-Smith]

I agree that sometimes a banana is just a banana.  However, picking things apart sentence by sentence is what GRRM's fan do!      Plus, GRRM can hides clues where you either don't expect them, or in an info dump and they're missed.  I went looking for wind in Bran's vision, and found an alive weirwood looking at him instead!  It's what keeps this fun. 

And what animates the trees and the crows? Where does their magic come from and who does it affect is the question.  It affects Bran, for instance, but the how and why is the fun part to figure out.    

 

Oh of course, I actually really like all the stuff I've found, it's just this is the first time I have attempted to read any text so closely and therefore don't want to come over as if I think everything I post is correct.  As you say, there's a lot that's hidden in plain sight and such close reading has I hope thus far been rewarding.

Picking things apart sentence by sentence is absolutely what GRRM fans do!  And I will continue to do so! 

What animates it all?  The ultimate quandary.  I haven't a clue!  But I see BR in the wind early, [and other stuff obviously] Bran in the wind later [Jon VII] and bemused pointed out the other Greenseers that Bran sees in the cave while inhabiting Hodor could well be using all of these same techniques. Plus all Evita has shown in her OP.  Everything in between is up for reread and debate.   

[Wizz-The-Smith]

Hey Longie, when Will is up that tree spotting in the prologue, George has the 'tree rustling' gently [using the word stirred] and gives the tree fingers as the wind blows gently through.  Very subtle.  

''Branches stirred gently in the wind, scratching at one another with wooden fingers.''

[LongRider]

IIRC, Will is up some sort of an evergreen or pine tree, correct?  So GRRM gives the wind the power to embody the tree branches and create a great creepy scene.  It sets up the weirwood trees in the future, with their eyes and faces and feeling of presence that they have.  And creepy, the weirwood trees are creepy (to me at least) and no wonder...they're alive!   

Happy New Year Everyone!  May the Winds of Winter blow upon us all!   

[Wizz-The-Smith]

Happy new year to all! 

Up thread I posted about the prologue, and how it seemed to give us a sort of key for the techniques George was going to use around the ‘trees/leaves rustling and then the trees coming alive’ and also the 'personification of the wind with a possible presence', and with both human and animal traits shown. [Howling, whispering etc….]

I think it was BearQueen and Evita posting on page one of this thread, about AGOT being a kind of 'key' for future books, and we have discussed the Wall, Winterfell and the crypts themselves having their own potential magic. So I thought I’d look into early mentions of these places to see whether or not they have been personified as early in the text as the wind/trees?

After a fruitless search in the first Daenerys chapter [to be thorough], we get to venture into the crypts for the first time in the next chapter, Eddard I, 90% of which takes place in the crypt.  Here’s a look at some of the text………..   

[Robert]  ‘’Where are all your people??’’

‘’Likely they were too shy to come out,’’ Ned jested.  He could feel the 'chill' coming up the stairs, 'a cold breath from deep within' the earth.

‘’Kings are a rare sight in the north.’’

This is early on as they descend the stairs, but it gives the crypts 'a cold breath from deep within’, perhaps an early hint at it being alive in its own right, is it breathing? 

Now let’s look at the statues…………….

Between the pillars, the dead sat on their stone thrones against the walls, backs against the sepulchres that contained their 'mortal remains'……….

[Ned leads the way]

Their footsteps rang off the stones and echoed in the vault overhead as they walked among the dead of house Stark.  ‘The Lords of Winterfell watched them pass.’  Their likenesses were carved into the stones that sealed the tombs.  In long rows they sat, ‘blind eyes staring out into eternal darkness’, while great stone direwolves curled round their feet.  ‘The shifting shadows made the stone figures seem to stir’ as the living passed by.  

‘The dead sat on their stone thrones’ seems one to look at.  We’re told the sepulchres hold the dead in the same sentence. [mortal remains]  Could this be a subtle clue?  The more traditional ‘likenesses were carved into the stones that sealed the tombs’ is rolled out a few sentences later.  Anyway, a cool image, the dead Starks sitting their thrones, watching listening.  And better yet to come.

‘The Lords of Winterfell watched them pass.’ Is such a simple line, but works so well for what we’re looking for here.  It gives the statues that imagery of being alive and using their eyes.  Then the ‘blind eyes staring out into eternal darkness’ The eyes of statues can’t watch or stare, this is again giving them a human trait.  The fact they are ‘blind eyes’ may hint at the fact these eyes are not for seeing through, ala the weirwoods, but is confirming that the crypts have this magic available through the personification in the text alone.  It is a living thing in its own right.  Then we have the ‘shifting shadows making the stone figures seem to stir’.  Again this gives this already creepy scene a further image of the statues seeming to move like they’re alive.  Awesome!  Onwards............

By ancient custom, an iron longsword had been laid across the lap of each who had been Lord of Winterfell, to keep the vengeful spirits in their crypts.  The oldest had long ago rusted away to nothing, leaving only a few red stains where the metal had rested on stone.  Ned wondered if that meant those ghosts were free to roam the castle now.  He hoped not.  The first Lords of Winterfell had been men hard as the land they ruled.

Now we have Ned wondering about whether the swords that have rusted away have 'released the spirits of long dead Starks.'  With all we are researching and have posted about, this is another evocative line.  The crypts seem to be alive and at the same time we are told these old Stark ghosts may be roaming the castle, very creepy!   Evita has posted previously about Winterfell having that aura around it [windows as eyes etc..] This only backs up that idea, the castle and the ghosts of previous Lords mingling as one, and bringing the castle to life!

Next, and this is clever, two short passages easily missed, planted around two descriptive and important passages about Ned and Robert’s past……………..

 There were three tombs, side by side.  Lord Rickard Stark, Ned’s father, had a long, ‘stern’ face.  The stonemason had known him well.  He sat with ‘quiet dignity,’ stone fingers ‘holding tight’ to the sword across his lap, but in life all swords had failed him. 

[Ned thinks of Lyanna and promises]

The king touched her cheek, his fingers brushing across the rough stone as gently ‘as if it were living flesh.’  ‘’I vowed to kill Rhaegar for what he did to her.’’ 

[Then the story of Robert and Rhaegar at the Trident is told.]

Again there are a lot of human traits given to the text here regards statues.  We know the Stark features include long faces, but to give a stone figure a ‘stern’ expression is a human personification.  This is followed up with stone Rickard sitting with ‘quiet dignity’ and ‘holding tightly’ to the sword.  Both of which give the figure human/physical traits they as statues are usually unable to show.

Add to this the fact that when Robert brushed his fingers across the stone 'as gently as if it were living flesh’ it brings the statue of Lyanna alive.  This is very much bringing the crypts and the statues in particular to life, actual living flesh!  Cool.   

The final bit of the chapter enforces the fact that these statues and the crypt itself are showing signs of being alive through clever text.

They started back down between the pillars.  Blind stone eyes seemed to follow them as they passed.  The king kept his arm around Ned’s shoulder.

[They talk of Jon Arryn and his son, leading the realm and its problems, then Robert offers Ned the role of Hand of the king]

‘’I bedded a fishmaid once who told me the lowborn have a choicer way to put it.  The king eats, they say, and the Hand takes the shit.’’  He threw back his head and roared his laughter.  The echoes rang through the darkness, and all around them the dead of Winterfell seemed to watch with cold and disapproving eyes.  Finally, the laughter dwindled and stopped.

Again we have the ‘blind stone eyes following them as they passed’ giving the statues eyes so to speak.  This is quickly interrupted by the talk of Jon Arryn etc…..  Then we get Robert’s crude joke followed by ‘the dead of Winterfell watching with cold and disapproving eyes’  The entity that is the crypts/statues were not impressed with that particular jest.

And finally the chapter finishes with

For a moment, Eddard Stark was filled with a terrible sense of foreboding.  This was his place, here in the north.  He looked at the stone figures all around them, breathed deep in the chill silence of the crypt.  He could feel the eyes of the dead.  They were all listening, he knew.  And winter was coming.

Finally we have Ned’s ‘breathing in the chill silence of the crypt’ and him feeling ‘the eyes of the dead, and he knew they were listening.’  With all the hints of a personified crypt, alive in its own right, this seems like confirmation that the crypts were indeed watching, listening and showing human emotion.

In conclusion

With all our posts about the crypts magic, the Walls magic etc……  I think this gives us an early answer to the question of whether or not the crypts are fair game for such enquiry.  They are showing signs of being alive the first time we visit them, with familiar techniques/word play being used.   

What was going on?  Well, possible breathing, watching, listening, being stern, showing quiet dignity, holding on tightly to a sword, showing cold and disapproving eyes to a crude joke etc……  All of which are signs of a personification of the environment.  With such an early set up for a living entity that is the crypt itself, the ‘screaming hinges’ we see later [screams are Bran’s calling card] and ‘gathering snow around the entrance’ shown by Evita in her posts, certainly gain credence. 

Hope this all made sense, and may conjure some interesting thoughts.  Winterfell itself is another one that will be given human imagery, on top of the ghosts we may have found.  The water flows through the castle like ‘the blood in the veins of a man’ [paraphrasing, it's in the next Cat chapter.] 

I don’t want to de-rail this threads line of thinking, we are looking for Bran’s growing powers.  But I thought these chapters may well be the set up for some of the things we’re looking for, so hopefully this has helped a bit.    

[Wizz-The-Smith]

IIRC, Will is up some sort of an evergreen or pine tree, correct?  So GRRM gives the wind the power to embody the tree branches and create a great creepy scene.  It sets up the weirwood trees in the future, with their eyes and faces and feeling of presence that they have.  And creepy, the weirwood trees are creepy (to me at least) and no wonder...they're alive!   

Exactly, we get plenty of descriptive scenes around weirwoods later on, but this gives us a clue as to how he goes about laying the subtle, harder to find hints that back whatever notion/literary technique he's using throughout the books.  Sneaky George! 

[LongRider]

Exactly, we get plenty of descriptive scenes around weirwoods later on, but this gives us a clue as to how he goes about laying the subtle, harder to find hints that back whatever notion/literary technique he's using throughout the books.  Sneaky George! 

Wizz, more great posts, thanks.  Alot of Bran's early chapters set him up to meet BR in a cave full of dead things and plenty of mystery.  So re-visiting the first visit to the crypts is not such a bad idea.  

I'd say the crypts are introduced to the reader as creepy cold places, but it as Bran knows "It's a Stark place!" and he's not frightened of them. Winterfell and the crypts are alive for Bran and he's not afraid above WF or in the crypts.  So what does he do in the cave?  He explores it (yes, by warging Hodor) and looks into the mystery of it.  Plenty of death symbolism in the cave and what does that all mean, in general and for Bran specifically?   Hmmm, guess we'll have to keep digging.  

[Wizz-The-Smith]

Wizz, more great posts, thanks.  Alot of Bran's early chapters set him up to meet BR in a cave full of dead things and plenty of mystery.  So re-visiting the first visit to the crypts is not such a bad idea.  

I'd say the crypts are introduced to the reader as creepy cold places, but it as Bran knows "It's a Stark place!" and he's not frightened of them. Winterfell and the crypts are alive for Bran and he's not afraid above WF or in the crypts.  So what does he do in the cave?  He explores it (yes, by warging Hodor) and looks into the mystery of it.  Plenty of death symbolism in the cave and what does that all mean, in general and for Bran specifically?   Hmmm, guess we'll have to keep digging.  

Thanks Longie!  What excites me is that we have touched on the trees rustling and coming alive, yes.  The personification and possible/probable presence in the wind, yes.  But it's he fact we can possibly prove the individual entities that are the crypts and Winterfell as magic forces in themselves, being personified within the text in their own right, that's exciting.  We know they were one's to watch, but this gives them a licence to be separate entities, and alive as Evita has shown.  This all so early in the text, and it's the first time we see them pretty much!   

I like your points about Bran, he has shown his willingness to explore throughout the series.   

[Wizz-The-Smith]

The next chapter is Jon's, and I can't see much to quote, maybe closer inspection needed.  But a couple of points to note.  Ghost is present for all of the chapter, so a possible connection there, without the necessary text though, this is speculative.  Jon was temporarily 'half blind' as he bumped into the serving maid at the end of the chapter, but again I can't link anything significant, it caught my attention though.  And a mention from Jon whilst speaking to Benjen about what he noticed while watching Ned, he says Ned's eyes were 'hooded' and were 'looking but could not see', could this be a hint to Jon's later affliction of 'not being able to see' and also backs the idea that him pulling his hood up all the time is a literary nod to this 'blindness?'  As opposed to Theon's hood being pulled back showing his susceptibility?

Also this is the chapter where Tyrion jumps from above the door and lands on his hands, only to flip himself back onto his feet!  I've seen George give an interview where he says he wished he never included that line, it certainly seems to have gone nowhere.    

Having mentioned the personification of Winterfell in my previous analysis, here's that early text that gives Winterfell that human/living aura.  Plus another thought from Cat's next chapter after.....................

The castle had built over natural hot springs, and the scalding waters rushed through its walls and chambers like the blood through a mans body, driving the chill from the stone halls, filling the glass gardens with a moist warmth, keeping the earth from freezing.

So the castle is given a human trait in that it has a lifeblood running through it much like a mans/woman's body, a human like description.  There is nothing else that jumped out at me regarding WF itself in this chapter, however I'd like an explanation for this next bit of text.  It smacks of Evita's Homeric notion from the OP for me, but would like a] Evita's opinion on such speculation.  And b] Anyone else who has knowledge of what Evita mused in the 3rd post of this thread.  Here are Evita's thoughts...................    

On occasion, Athena appears to Odysseus in the guise of another, but she mostly influences Odysseus from afar, divinely inspiring him with brilliant ideas and military stratagems. She hides and protects him in a mist, she sends him guidance through her father Zeus, Ino, and Hermes. She holds his tongue and calms his raging fury. She transforms his appearance with magic, at times making him taller, more muscular, and styling his golden locks of hair like hyacinths. Or she may age his features and cripple his limbs so that no one will recognize him. She may be a bird, or she may be at Odysseus’ side disguised.

If readers think of Athena metaphorically, she is an invisible force whispering ideas in his ear that Odysseus believes are his own conceptions, albeit divine wisdom from the immortals.

With the Homeric notion of a transformation in appearance and an invisible force around our Asoiaf characters, as per Evita's ideas, I found this next section of text very interesting, if not a little puzzling.  The text seems odd, and starts with a 'swirling of the wind' as does the potentially significant prologue regarding the wind, while also making the trees come alive.  I have my eye on the word 'swirling' as well as 'gusts' as I think they are key words surrounding the wind, giving it a textual presence, letting us know it is present at that particular time so to speak.  Anyway, onto the transformation and invisible force as per Evita's ideas, this text seems weird to me...........

The wind swirled around him as he stood facing the dark, naked and empty handed.  Catelyn pulled the firs to her chin and watched him.  He looked somehow smaller and more vulnerable like the youth she had wed in the sept at Riverrun, fifteen long years gone................

''I will refuse him.'' Ned said as he turned back to her.  His eyes were haunted, his voice thick with doubt. 

Firstly, having had the wind personified in the prologue using the word 'swirling', could this be a link?  Is this a key word to bring the wind to life?  Not sure, it seems possible.  And is the wind a tool for George's version of the invisible force Evita was mentioning in her OP? 

Now onto the transformation in appearance due to this possible presence.  As the wind swirled in to their chamber, Ned's look changed considerably, by fifteen years in fact..................... 

He looked somehow smaller and more vulnerable like the youth she had wed in the sept at Riverrun, fifteen long years gone................  

And then we get the notion that Ned's eyes are 'haunted', perhaps backing the idea that this invisible force is somehow present?  And speculatively, 'his voice was thick with doubt', were these his honest opinions?  Or ones being played with by a secret presence.  Told you it was speculative.   

These are things I'm seeing from researching the OP, so hopefully Evita flies by soon with some new [and always awesome] ideas.  Perhaps she can shed some [Homeric] light on this seemingly odd bit of text?  

These are just some of my thoughts, any other ideas welcome! 

[Wizz-The-Smith]

BTW, in that same chapter Catelyn received the letter from Lysa.  The text around this is two or three pages long, so won't go over it all.  But interestingly the wooden box left mysteriously in Maester Luwin's chamber held a fine Myrish lens, which Cat mused quite rightly ''A lens is an instrument to help us see'' then ''What is it they would have us see more clearly?''

We are then told that Luwin had the same thought, so dismantled the box.....

''I found the true message concealed within a false bottom when I dismantled the box the lens had come in, but it is not for my eyes.''

Then Cat declares the letter is in a secret language her and Lysa spoke together as kids, a code if you will.  So she realised this as a clue to look deeper, as did Luwin, then it's all in a code!  Hmmm.

Is this George telling 'us as readers' to look closer as well?  Telling us there are secrets to this book, and you have to look closely to dismantle them.  Is this possible so early in the book?  I think yes.  We'll perhaps find a code to unravel, and attempt to follow, but nevertheless.....................

We've already seen in the first few chapters prior this one - the wind making the leaves rustle and bringing trees to life - the wind making cloaks seem [half] alive - a personification of the wind through the 'howling' + 'whispering' [through trees as well] - the wind disappearing when the actual 'cold' turns up - a possible presence in the direwolves - the crypts seeming to be alive, watching, listening and having human emotions - WF having human characteristics - there is more in the next few chapters to back this up as well. 

Perhaps not, but it seemed to me a challenge by the author to look very closely at the text for hidden/secret clues/literary techniques in the text already, let alone moving forward.  

[Tijgy]

I just want to say you are doing amazing work here. Everything here is very interesting. 

I am doing my own reread of AGOT and during a Tyrion chapter Mormont says to Tyrion: "You must make them (the king, Jaime and Tywin) understand. I tell you, my lord, the darkness is coming. There are wild things in the woods, direwolves and mammoths and snow bears the size of aurochs, and I have seen darker shapes in my dreams." 

This is probably Bloodraven trying to warn Mormont in his dreams, no? 

And I just realized the presence of Mormont's Raven means Bloodraven never truly left the Wall. He is still there as a "guide" to the current Commander. 

(And now I started) there is another weird sequence in this chapter: 

"Suddenly a strange madness took hold of him, a yearning to look once more of the end of the world." (to visit the top of the Wall again)

"Long enough for Tyrion to begin to wonder why he was doing this. He had just about decided to forget his sudden whim and go to bed when the cage gave a jerk and began to ascend"

Is this not sort of similar how Bran might influence Theon?

"It was bitingly cold up here, and the wind pulled at his clothes like an insistent lover." (LOL, Bloodraven is the "lover" here or at least I think he is)

"West, he decided, for no special reason, (...)" Might this decision also not be influenced? "His bare cheeks were ruddy with the cold, and his legs complained more loudly with every step, but Tyrion ignored them. The wind swirled around him. Again a mentioning of wind and Tyrion is doing this even if he is really uncomfortable.

All this influence led to a meeting between Tyrion and Jon ("This is the last place I would have expected to see you.""This is the last place I would have expected to be seen. (...) I was captured by a whim." Ghost with his red eyes is there to. 

Then they talk about Ghost juggling, Jon helping the other recruits and Tyrion asking if Jo want to deliver a message to his family in Winterfell. He asks Tyrion to help Bran. They have a bromance moment and they look together at the land beyond the Wall. 

"As he stood there and looked at all that darkness with no fires burning anywhere, with the wind blowing and the cold like a spear in his guts, Tyrion Lannister felt as though he could almost believe the talk of the Others, the enemy in the night. His jokes of grumkins and snarks no longer seemed quite so droll." 

If Bloodraven was influencing Tyrion here and wanted him to meet Jon on the Wall, what he did want to achieve with this? I can think of two things: 

1° Jon asking Tyrion to help Bran so Bran his pain could be eased?

2° An attempt to make Tyrion believe in the Others so he would aid Bloodraven and the NW in their cause against the Others?

 

[Wizz-The-Smith]

I just want to say you are doing amazing work here. Everything here is very interesting. 

I am doing my own reread of AGOT and during a Tyrion chapter Mormont says to Tyrion: "You must make them (the king, Jaime and Tywin) understand. I tell you, my lord, the darkness is coming. There are wild things in the woods, direwolves and mammoths and snow bears the size of aurochs, and I have seen darker shapes in my dreams." 

This is probably Bloodraven trying to warn Mormont in his dreams, no? 

And I just realized the presence of Mormont's Raven means Bloodraven never truly left the Wall. He is still there as a "guide" to the current Commander. 

If Bloodraven was influencing Tyrion here and wanted him to meet Jon on the Wall, what he did want to achieve with this? I can think of two things: 

1° Jon asking Tyrion to help Bran so Bran his pain could be eased?

2° An attempt to make Tyrion believe in the Others so he would aid Bloodraven and the NW in their cause against the Others?

Hey Tijgy!  Thank you for your kind words, and welcome aboard.  Nice catch on Tyrion's whim to have a wander, that is definitely something I would have posted, wondering about it myself. [sorry]     So that's Ned and Tyrion that have shown possible signs of being influenced as per Evita's ideas, very interesting thanks.

I like the fact it happens around 'a swirling wind' again as well, this is so far consistent, and one to watch I feel. 

The line 'and the wind pulled at his clothes like an insistent lover'  may seem odd to some for a sign of BR.  But, if you look at his relationship with Shiera Seastar, then it's actually quite an accurate description.  IIRC he was her lover for many a year, and continually asked for her hand in marriage, only to be denied.  So he could well have been described as 'an insistent lover.'  Perhaps speculation, but I like it at first glance!    And of course the wind pulling at anything gives it that human ability and therefore the personification we're looking for.  Good work Tijgy!

And yes, Mormont's raven seems to be a prime candidate for BR/Greenseer x to watch events at the Wall. [for years possibly] We mustn't forget Greenseer x, Bran saw them at work in the cave after all.  Surely using the same techniques as BR and Bran.  But some of the windy text we're finding does I think lend itself to BR's presence early, then Bran later on in ADWD.

Nice point about Mormont's dream, that is a very subtle little drop, a hint to watch the dreams in future?  Again a bit speculative.  But I like it, and tend to agree with you that is well worth considering.  I think there has to be a way in so to speak, and with Mormont being present at the Wall and the presence of BR/Greenseer x in his raven, I feel this is entirely possible.  Jaime had a dream sleeping on a weirwood stump for example, maybe another possible in?  The Direwolves, the Crypts, Winterfell, etc........... 

What is he trying to achieve?  Good question, I'm not sure yet.  I like the simple 'getting him to meet up with Jon' because he wanted that to happen, while at the same time showing us subtly that he is [possibly] using this particular technique that Evita so wonderfully caught.  GRRM rarely simulates things, he has his own play on them, so we have to try and suss out what is going on here. 

We have had a good start IMHO, but my knowledge on this particular subject is minimal.  I did some homework on the technique on personification in literature and that has helped my understanding of that line of enquiry, but I am in the same boat as you Tijgy, I have my eye on this puzzling transformation but can't give any explanation.  Nice catch though, hopefully Evita can shed some light?    

[Tijgy]

On 6-1-2016 at 3:49 AM, Wizz-The-Smith said:

Hey Tijgy!  Thank you for your kind words, and welcome aboard.  Nice catch on Tyrion's whim to have a wander, that is definitely something I would have posted, wondering about it myself. [sorry]     So that's Ned and Tyrion that have shown possible signs of being influenced as per Evita's ideas, very interesting thanks.

I like the fact it happens around 'a swirling wind' again as well, this is so far consistent, and one to watch I feel. 

The line 'and the wind pulled at his clothes like an insistent lover'  may seem odd to some for a sign of BR.  But, if you look at his relationship with Shiera Seastar, then it's actually quite an accurate description.  IIRC he was her lover for many a year, and continually asked for her hand in marriage, only to be denied.  So he could well have been described as 'an insistent lover.'  Perhaps speculation, but I like it at first glance!    And of course the wind pulling at anything gives it that human ability and therefore the personification we're looking for.  Good work Tijgy!

And yes, Mormont's raven seems to be a prime candidate for BR/Greenseer x to watch events at the Wall. [for years possibly] We mustn't forget Greenseer x, Bran saw them at work in the cave after all.  Surely using the same techniques as BR and Bran.  But some of the windy text we're finding does I think lend itself to BR's presence early, then Bran later on in ADWD.

Nice point about Mormont's dream, that is a very subtle little drop, a hint to watch the dreams in future?  Again a bit speculative.  But I like it, and tend to agree with you that is well worth considering.  I think there has to be a way in so to speak, and with Mormont being present at the Wall and the presence of BR/Greenseer x in his raven, I feel this is entirely possible.  Jaime had a dream sleeping on a weirwood stump for example, maybe another possible in?  The Direwolves, the Crypts, Winterfell, etc........... 

What is he trying to achieve?  Good question, I'm not sure yet.  I like the simple 'getting him to meet up with Jon' because he wanted that to happen, while at the same time showing us subtly that he is [possibly] using this particular technique that Evita so wonderfully caught.  GRRM rarely simulates things, he has his own play on them, so we have to try and suss out what is going on here. 

We have had a good start IMHO, but my knowledge on this particular subject is minimal.  I did some homework on the technique on personification in literature and that has helped my understanding of that line of enquiry, but I am in the same boat as you Tijgy, I have my eye on this puzzling transformation but can't give any explanation.  Nice catch though, hopefully Evita can shed some light?    

I think I found an indication what Bloodraven was trying to do. 

When Ser Allister Thorne comes to Tyrion with the hand of one of the wights in KL, Tyrion thinks the following: 

"Tyrion remembered a cold night under the stars when he'd stood beside the boy Jon Snow and a great white wolf atop the Wall at the end of the world, gazing out at the trackless dark beyond. He had felt - what? something, to be sure, a dread that had cut like that frigid northern wind. A wolf had howled off in the night, and the sound had sent a shiver through him." Northern wind, wolf, ... al refer to the power of the old gods, the Starks, ...) 
Don't be a fool, he told himself. A wolf, a wind, a dark forest. And yet ... He had come to have a liking for old Jeor Mormont during his time at Castle Black. 

And then Tyrion mock Ser Allister Thorne in public, gives him 100 spades to bury their dead and give him the pick of the city dungeons. However while Varys praise his actions ("You give that black brother the men he seeks, rid the city of some hungry mouths, yet make it all seem mockery so none may say the dwarf fears snake and grumkins. Oh, deftly done.), I think 100 spades and the pick of the dungeon are not really enough to hold the Wall. 

In both Tyrion chapters happened the following: 

- Lord Mormont asks Tyrion to help him by convincing his family and using his influence to aid the Night's Watch (and probably doing something bigger than just the occasional criminals). When lord Mormont starts to speak about the darker and more dangerous thing than the Wildlings, Tyrion is very skeptical. During this conversation is our beloved Raven of course present. 

- There is some weird divine wind that influences Tyrion to visit Jon atop the wall (as described in my earlier post). Then he looks beyond the land beyond the wall and then "As he stood there and looked at all that darkness with no fires burning anywhere, with the wind blowing and the cold like a spear in his guts, Tyrion Lannister felt as though he could almost believe the talk of the Others, the enemy in the night. His jokes of grumkins and snarks no longer seemed quite so droll."

- Tyrion is now hand of the King and the Night's Watch comes to ask for his help based on a story with wights. The memory of the moment with Jon Snow at the Wall and the fact this meeting was forced upon Tyrion by a weird wind, makes Tyrion consider the possibility that Ser Allister is telling the truth (which actually sort of fails in my opinion; or it makes him certainly not think what is happening at the Wall is important). 

What I believe happended: Bloodraven sees Lord Mormont Tyrion asking for help (influence on the King, his sister, his father, ...). Tyrion is however skeptical and doesn't really believe what Mormont says. A divine wind (aka powers of the old gods aka Bloodraven) tries to make Tyrion believe so he would aid the Night's Watch. This however fails. When Ser Allister comes to King's Landing, the memory of this divine wind (aka Bloodraven) has as consequence Tyrion considers for a moment the possibility Thorne's story is true. However, while he aid the Watch in a small way (actually in the same way Ned helps the Watch as Hand),  he still do not believe the story of Allister Thorne is true. 

To conclude, I think Bloodraven tried to manipulate Tyrion the story of the Others is true and to show him his aid to Nigth's Watch is necessary. This was at least his intention; sadly he failed in his goal. 

This is sadly similar to the Bran's chapter when Osha comes to Bran and says the gods are talking through the wind and that Robb should go north not south. Sadly Robb refuses to listen to Osha and Bran does not tell this to Robb (because maester Luwin told Bran he should not trouble Robb with this folly). 

Poor Old Gods (aka Bloodraven?), they did really try to warn those fool men of the darkness in the North. Sadly people did not listen to them.

[Tijgy]

I just wanted to mention I also made an analysis of Jon's chapter when he finds the horn and the obsidian weapons near the Fist of the First Men thanks though Ghost and interference of the Old Gods(?). It actually shows some parallels to the Tyrion's chapter which I earlier already analyzed (the chapter were Tyrion is influenced by the Old Gods to look at the land beyond the Wall and which I mention again in the last post of this thread). 

But I do not really want to put this in this thread because I am scared I will disrupt the whole order of this reread? So just say if you want me to post this analysis already or that I have to wait?

[Wizz-The-Smith]

9 hours ago, Tijgy said:

I just wanted to mention I also made an analysis of Jon's chapter when he finds the horn and the obsidian weapons near the Fist of the First Men thanks though Ghost and interference of the Old Gods(?). It actually shows some parallels to the Tyrion's chapter which I earlier already analyzed (the chapter were Tyrion is influenced by the Old Gods to look at the land beyond the Wall and which I mention again in the last post of this thread). 

But I do not really want to put this in this thread because I am scared I will disrupt the whole order of this reread? So just say if you want me to post this analysis already or that I have to wait?

Hi Tijgy!  Don't worry about the order of this re-read, it has no real flow to it just yet.  We are just trying to help Evita find some evidence of Bran's growing powers and potential similarities in the text regarding her wonderful OP.  Just the sort of stuff you're looking at !   

Evita and I posted about breaking down Bran's three chapters in ADWD, then moving onto Jon/Theon/Arya chapters after that, looking for some of the text you've obviously noted in our musings. However, as you may have noticed you and I have been posting AGOT stuff that I think has a lot of merit for discussion regards the wind and a personification of various 'magic' places [Crypts, Winterfell etc]  To start from the beginning may be the best option, but at the moment, until Evita drops by, I may just concentrate on Bran and his potential presence after his last chapter, and start to work my way through the chapters mentioned above, Bran's first three etc.................  I don't really know TBH, if we find Bran/BR/windy type stuff in the text, I'd say go ahead and post about it.    

[LongRider]

9 minutes ago, Wizz-The-Smith said:

Hi Tijgy!  Don't worry about the order of this re-read, it has no real flow to it just yet.  We are just trying to help Evita find some evidence of Bran's growing powers and potential similarities in the text regarding her wonderful OP.  Just the sort of stuff you're looking at !   

~~~snip~~~

  Go ahead Tijgy, I'd like to hear your thought as well.

[Wizz-The-Smith]

On ‎22‎/‎01‎/‎2016 at 9:07 PM, Tijgy said:

What I believe happended: Bloodraven sees Lord Mormont Tyrion asking for help (influence on the King, his sister, his father, ...). Tyrion is however skeptical and doesn't really believe what Mormont says. A divine wind (aka powers of the old gods aka Bloodraven) tries to make Tyrion believe so he would aid the Night's Watch. This however fails. When Ser Allister comes to King's Landing, the memory of this divine wind (aka Bloodraven) has as consequence Tyrion considers for a moment the possibility Thorne's story is true. However, while he aid the Watch in a small way (actually in the same way Ned helps the Watch as Hand),  he still do not believe the story of Allister Thorne is true. 

To conclude, I think Bloodraven tried to manipulate Tyrion the story of the Others is true and to show him his aid to Nigth's Watch is necessary. This was at least his intention; sadly he failed in his goal. 

 

That's a good idea, it's so hard to say.  If George is using the techniques shown in the OP, then maybe it's just clever writing to show us a presence rather than having an ultimate meaning behind it?  Kind of getting us to look at this line of inquiry with his subtle [Homer] hints.  But I like your take on it as well, it could work both ways.  I too think I've seen the wind temporarily  'take over' a chapter as you've noted.  Good work Tijgy!        

[Tijgy]

15 hours ago, Wizz-The-Smith said:

That's a good idea, it's so hard to say.  If George is using the techniques shown in the OP, then maybe it's just clever writing to show us a presence rather than having an ultimate meaning behind it?  Kind of getting us to look at this line of inquiry with his subtle [Homer] hints.  But I like your take on it as well, it could work both ways.  I too think I've seen the wind temporarily  'take over' a chapter as you've noted.  Good work Tijgy!        

Rereading my own post, I think I might emphasize to hard what the "wind" is trying to do. I might actually mean more it are the "old gods" inspiring Tyrion and GRRM tries to use the wind to show us that? The wind is indeed just a sort of means to show the presence of the old gods and that they are trying to influence in one way Tyrion here. 

But I think there should be a reason why they want to Tyrion to go to Jon and to look over at Land beyond the Wall. Tyrion is not doing this because he wants it but because he is kind of forced by something (which is IMO the"old gods"). And they should have a reason to this. And this reason can according to me being derived from the earlier meeting with the Lord Commander where the Raven is present and from the moment in ACOK where Tyrion recalls this peculiar "divine inspiration": an plea at Tyrion to use his influence in the South to aid the Night's Watch. 

But a lot of this is of course speculation and some guesswork at a possible presence of the Old Gods and their possible intent. However in my next analysis of Jon I where I look at the presence of "wind", ... I am giving to another example of how the Old Gods might inferring in the politics of the Night's Watch. (But I think I need to reread it first)