Heresy 172

[Reposado]

We also don't know "when" he named it that.

true. but clearly before he died. for what i'm saying all that matters is: this tower was significant to rhaegar and is not just a strategtic place along the path

[Sly Wren]

If you look at the Vader situation:

1) Luke's mortal enemy was his father

2) Luke's sort-of-love-interest was his sister

3) It was a shocking reveal

4) He believed his father was dead but isn't

I can't say what whatsisname was referring to, but since it was quite specific, I doubt it would be as broad as #3.

I don't think it's the Arya thing, unless he intended his hint as a complete flip. So maybe #2

Does Jon have a mortal enemy, someone he's hated RE his family's misfortunes, someone he wants vengeance upon? I can't think of anyone, save the Boltons, and that wouldn't add up.

#4 is a maybe?

Could also see #1 as an enemy to the family, or someone thought evil by the family--so, Rhaegar would fit.

But could also see Arthur--Ned and Howland killed him. He supported Rhaegar. Finding out that the man you loved and thought was your father killed the man who was your father, who was also a supporter of the family who brought so much misery to the Starks--could work.

#2--doubt we're going to find out Ygritte was his sister. Though that would be interesting.

#4--Would be cool if either Arthur or Rhaegar were alive--plenty of theories out there to jump on this. But still think it would be shocking enough for Jon's father to be either one.

[Sly Wren]

true. but clearly before he died. for what i'm saying all that matters is: this tower was significant to rhaegar and is not just a strategtic place along the path

But do we know that? All we've got is that one quick statement in Ned's POV--"It was said that Rhaegar called this place the tower of joy." Can't even tell if Ned believes this statement. Seems his bitterness works either way.

Just can't see how the books have pinned down whether that tower mattered to Rhaegar or not. We only get this mention once. No one else calls it tower of joy on page or (to the best of my knowledge) brings it up as "important" to Rhaegar.

[Sly Wren]

Working on a theory that Lewyn Martell's paramour was actually Olenna Redwynne. Also that Marwyn the Mage is their secret bastard sent to the Citadel to hide his identity. I am still working on the full theory but this is part of the TLDR section.

Brief version L + O = M

1. LeWYN is a MARtell, hence Mar+wyn = Marwyn. Many historical Martells also have names starting with the letter M. Also Olenna’s first born son is named Mace. Also Luwin is the first Maester introduced in ASOIAF.

2. Marwyn’s two most trusted students are Leo Tyrell and a Sarella Sand daughter of Oberyn Martell. Also Pate who is likely Jaquen the faceless man. 2/3 his students are lying about their identity.

3. Lewyn is known to have a paramour but this has been kept a closely guarded secret, likely meaning someone of high birth. It isn’t common knowledge and isn’t recorded in the White Book of the Kingsguard. There is no mention of a bastard which would be an even more closely guarded secret.

4. Olenna is betrothed to Daeron Targ at 9. It is broken off when she is 18 and she doesn’t have Mace till she is 28. That is a lot of time for an affair. She claims that Luthor wasn’t unskilled in bed meaning that she might have had lovers before Luthor.

5. Marwyn bears shares several physical characteristics with Mace Tyrell, Olenna’s first born.

6. Marwyn is often associated with the letter M: Maester, Mage, Mastiff, Magic, Mirri Maz Dur etc.

7. Several associations in the novels point to him being their son (see spoilers)

8. Several hints that Marwyn is working with the Martells. Sarella, Oberyn’s time at the Citadel, and the fact that Doran doesn’t trust Maesters.

9. The Strangler poison was used by Olenna to kill Joffrey. The secrets of this poison are known to the Maesters. Marwyn would have been easily able to get the poison. Maester Cressen attempted to kill Melisandre with the same poison.

I know its tinfoil but the full version will go far more indepth, tell me what you think.

I'll give this a shot--warning: this part of the books isn't my forte. I agree that this is possible. And the tie between the Martells and thus possibly the poison works. Given the Tyrells' wealth, seems like they could have gotten the poison anywhere, or relied on Littlefinger. But if they had a connection in the Citadel, might have been easier to secure secrecy.

Marwyn and Olenna--it's possible. Would be interesting. And I would be interested in seeing the rest of your evidence.

[Reposado]

But do we know that? All we've got is that one quick statement in Ned's POV--"It was said that Rhaegar called this place the tower of joy." Can't even tell if Ned believes this statement. Seems his bitterness works either way.

Just can't see how the books have pinned down whether that tower mattered to Rhaegar or not. We only get this mention once. No one else calls it tower of joy on page or (to the best of my knowledge) brings it up as "important" to Rhaegar.

yeah. i think we do know that. it being important to rhaegar doesn't prove anyone theory. it could be for all we know, where he and arthur use to hook up while jon con stared longingly through the window.

but rhaeagr called it the tower of joy. that is in the text and there is no reason to doubt that.

noone else calls it that because no one else thinks or talks about it. it probably was not common knowledge.

[Reposado]

Working on a theory that Lewyn Martell's paramour was actually Olenna Redwynne. Also that Marwyn the Mage is their secret bastard sent to the Citadel to hide his identity. I am still working on the full theory but this is part of the TLDR section.

Brief version L + O = M

1. LeWYN is a MARtell, hence Mar+wyn = Marwyn. Many historical Martells also have names starting with the letter M. Also Olenna’s first born son is named Mace. Also Luwin is the first Maester introduced in ASOIAF.

2. Marwyn’s two most trusted students are Leo Tyrell and a Sarella Sand daughter of Oberyn Martell. Also Pate who is likely Jaquen the faceless man. 2/3 his students are lying about their identity.

3. Lewyn is known to have a paramour but this has been kept a closely guarded secret, likely meaning someone of high birth. It isn’t common knowledge and isn’t recorded in the White Book of the Kingsguard. There is no mention of a bastard which would be an even more closely guarded secret.

4. Olenna is betrothed to Daeron Targ at 9. It is broken off when she is 18 and she doesn’t have Mace till she is 28. That is a lot of time for an affair. She claims that Luthor wasn’t unskilled in bed meaning that she might have had lovers before Luthor.

5. Marwyn bears shares several physical characteristics with Mace Tyrell, Olenna’s first born.

6. Marwyn is often associated with the letter M: Maester, Mage, Mastiff, Magic, Mirri Maz Dur etc.

7. Several associations in the novels point to him being their son (see spoilers)

8. Several hints that Marwyn is working with the Martells. Sarella, Oberyn’s time at the Citadel, and the fact that Doran doesn’t trust Maesters.

9. The Strangler poison was used by Olenna to kill Joffrey. The secrets of this poison are known to the Maesters. Marwyn would have been easily able to get the poison. Maester Cressen attempted to kill Melisandre with the same poison.

I know its tinfoil but the full version will go far more indepth, tell me what you think.

it's plausible. but one thing i like to think about when considering secret parenteges is: what would that add to the story? in this case i don't see much. but let's look at a few things

3. if a kingsguard had a bastard he would keep it quiet regardless of who the mother was. it would certainly not be mentioned in the white book. it is directly against their vows. i'd scrap this one.

4. the time line for the affair is 237 to 246. that would put marywn at the age range of 54-63. this seems reasonable with his descriptions. but barristan did not join the kingsguard until 260. we also know that lewyn could not have joined the kingsguard until 262 as he was appointed by aerys. so the paramour that barristan knew about is someone else. that doesn't mean that lewyn couldn't have an affair before joining the kingsguard and then a paramour after though. we have no idea how old lewyn was when he joined the kingsguard. or how old he was

6 grrm tends to give people alliterative nicknames, so not sure how this matters too much

8. what are the hints that marywn is working with the martells? which martells? the martells don't even seem to be working together. you must mean doran, but marywn doesn't seem to be in the loop about doran's actions

9. tons of ways for olenna to get the strangler without going all the way to oldtown

[Sly Wren]

yeah. i think we do know that. it being important to rhaegar doesn't prove anyone theory. it could be for all we know, where he and arthur use to hook up while jon con stared longingly through the window.

but rhaeagr called it the tower of joy. that is in the text and there is no reason to doubt that.

noone else calls it that because no one else thinks or talks about it. it probably was not common knowledge.

Agree we know "it was said that" Rhaegar called it the tower of joy. Agree Ned heard the rumor. But was it true? Can't see how we know that yet. So, we may have to agree to disagree.

But if Rhaegar did call it that, we don't know why, yes?

[Reposado]

Agree we know "it was said that" Rhaegar called it the tower of joy. Agree Ned heard the rumor. But was it true? Can't see how we know that yet. So, we may have to agree to disagree.

But if Rhaegar did call it that, we don't know why, yes?

i think that would be a crazy thing for ned to have been lied to about it. it would ruin the irony that ned finds only sorrow there.

but yes. we don't know why.

[Black Crow]

It was the same ballad singers who spoke of him whispering her name as he died in the water. :devil:

Heresy 173 is now up and running so please carry the discussion across there.

[Shagwell Snow]

Any chance of a link as this pesky forum will not allow me to navigate to it?

[Black Crow]

Its sitting on the ADwD page next to this one.

[Shagwell Snow]

My thanks,I usually have to google it and guess the number if I've missed a week or so.