Astronomy of Ice and Fire: Black Hole Moon

[J. Stargaryen]

^^ Hey Jstar, thanks for dropping by. For the purposes of symbolism, it doesn't matter whether they married or not, or that Rhaegar was a prince and not a king - he was a "solar king," which is all that matters.

Did you read Julia H's comment on page 2?

No. I must have kind of skimmed it. It's really good. Thanks for pointing it out. Great job, Julia!

[LmL]

Yeah really awesome. I told her I was just gonna lift if verbatim and give her the credit, it's ready to go. :bowdown:

It just kind of shows that the pattern repeats over and over. Really, this story is about the family and reproduction. Something of the father and the mother go into the child, and something of them into the next, and so on and so on. Jon is the son of a solar dragon king and a winter moon maiden, and then he himself takes a fire moon maiden and an ice moon maiden. It's pretty tight.

[LmL]

If anyone would like to do me a quick favor, pop on over to reddit and give my theory a quick up vote. I just posted this one up there. It's always hard to get one off the ground, so early votes are really appreciated. Just trying to spread the good word, share the nerdcrack.

https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/3bueux/spoilers_all_astronomy_of_ice_and_fire_the/

Thanks very much everyone :devil: :kiss:

[LordImp]

It occurred to me some time ago that both "races", Ice and Fire ones, White Walkers and the Fire ones (whatever Mel, Moqqoro and Rhlorists actually are, human they are not) probably represented two powerful protohuman factions in the Great Empire of the Dawn.

They all shared the rule and the power and peacefully co-existed in the Great Empire of the Dawn, staying in balance by respecting the customs and traditions that their extraterrestrial forefathers (Maiden made of Light and Lion of the Night) thought them, then someone (Bloodstone Emperor?) disrupted that balance and caused the civil war that tore the Empire to pieces. Astronomy events followed, whether caused naturally, or one of the warring factions used magic to destroy a great source of other faction's power aka set the trajectory of the comet upon one of the moons, who knows. Global War started with two dominant factions raising above all others, using magic to do unnatural things to themselves and the environment around them. Ice and Fire. One turned themselves into beings of pure Ice (WWs), others turned themselves into whatever Mel and Moqqoro are or even a worse form that we haven't seen yet. Ice dragons fighting Fire dragons and all that jazz.

When rest of the factions

(with the help from the normal ones from Ice and Fire groups who didn't want War or to transform themselves fully, also some factions like the water/squisher ones clearly allied themselves with the Ice faction)

realized that shit has hit the fan, that Sun was not coming back and that the conflict is destroying everyone, they united! To lead them, they chose someone who represented a unification of them all as one, a hybrid, a sphinx, the one will bring the Light again to the world.

They managed to subdue both of the warring factions to a point, and forced them to sign a pact to stick to their own patches of land, White Walkers in their Lands of Always Winter (I suppose there has to be an Ice city somewhere in them, one that may have once been just their regular seat of power and a normal city before they changed) and the Fire ones in Asshai, or in the Shadow. They thought that they eradicated their weapons, while missing a contingent of the War machines, read Dragons, hiding in the fiery depths of Valyria, that they didn't know about. (Yes, there will be no dragons when the story is finished). The Wall was built and the world returned to some weaker version of NORMAL. Seasons still out of whack.

Rewind to present day Westeros. Great Houses that are descended from great men of the Age of Heroes or rather each representing a powerful faction from the Great Empire of the Dawn itself (for example, the Starks are the Ice faction, but the good one, the one before the Great War and their transformation to WWs, Targs clearly the Fire side, again before they turned to whatever and so on...) , are AGAIN in a heavy CIVIL WAR. The events are repeating themselves and the pact signed so long ago is broken. History of the first Great War almost forgotten... The Long Night is coming again...

Some great toughts there. I agree with you that ice and fire once was balanced , im starting to think that God on Earth was the first union of ice and fire.

About the origins of the Others im not sure , but im leaning towards Greenseers creating them. Others was probably created for war purposes. Maybe the Others where created to protect the Weirwoods or something. Anyway , im sure the Stark's are involved with the Others.

[Julia H.]

Some great toughts there. I agree with you that ice and fire once was balanced , im starting to think that God on Earth was the first union of ice and fire.

About the origins of the Others im not sure , but im leaning towards Greenseers creating them. Others was probably created for war purposes. Maybe the Others where created to protect the Weirwoods or something. Anyway , im sure the Stark's are involved with the Others.

This line suddenly reminded me of an observation I read more than a year ago - it was made by Mithras, and I found it here.

The wealth of the wildlings (which includes queer “treasures”) looks like the items in a pagan worship, i.e. offerings to a fertility god (Jon Snow) who will be sacrificed in the next chapter. GRRM wrote “Corn King Jon Snow” to emphasize this point.

[Durran Durrandon]

It occurred to me some time ago that both "races", Ice and Fire ones, White Walkers and the Fire ones (whatever Mel, Moqqoro and Rhlorists actually are, human they are not) probably represented two powerful protohuman factions in the Great Empire of the Dawn.

I agree with the spirit and direction of this, but I am inclined quibble over the word race. I think I made a pretty good case in my Mel and the Night's Queen post that Mel is no longer fully human, but she was born human. I made the case that the parallels between Mel and the Night's Queen are such that it is likely that the Night's Queen underwent a similar transformation. We have under good authority that Craster’s sons went under such a transformation. So rather than two races in the GEOTD, I would say two schools of magic.

[Han Snow]

I agree with the spirit and direction of this, but I am inclined quibble over the word race. I think I made a pretty good case in my Mel and the Night's Queen post that Mel is no longer fully human, but she was born human. I made the case that the parallels between Mel and the Night's Queen are such that it is likely that the Night's Queen underwent a similar transformation. We have under good authority that Craster’s sons went under such a transformation. So rather than two races in the GEOTD, I would say two schools of magic.

Yes, yes. Completely agree, that is what I meant. All were human, or protohuman in the beginning.

One turned themselves into beings of pure Ice (WWs), others turned themselves into whatever Mel and Moqqoro are or even a worse form that we haven't seen yet.

After the War escalated.

[Durran Durrandon]

I would add Beric to that list. His blood is black and he uses it to set his sword fire. The resurrections seem t o be transforming him in the way Melisandre has b een transformed, which I think could have implications for what Nissa Nissa was if her heart lit Lightbringer.

[LmL]

I agree with the spirit and direction of this, but I am inclined quibble over the word race. I think I made a pretty good case in my Mel and the Night's Queen post that Mel is no longer fully human, but she was born human. I made the case that the parallels between Mel and the Night's Queen are such that it is likely that the Night's Queen underwent a similar transformation. We have under good authority that Craster’s sons went under such a transformation. So rather than two races in the GEOTD, I would say two schools of magic.

In agree with this 100%. I am pretty confident that Melisandre is given to us as an example of how the Night's Queen was created. This is absolutely the best explanation of the Nights Queen out there, in my opinion of course. Props to you Durran D.

[LmL]

I would add Beric to that list. His blood is black and he uses it to set his sword fire. The resurrections seem t o be transforming him in the way Melisandre has b een transformed, which I think could have implications for what Nissa Nissa was if her heart lit Lightbringer.

Yes, I thought I mentioned him. He's of course different from Mel in that... you know, he's died a few times, but either way we see that if you life force is intertwined with fire magic, you probably have black blood.

Durran, how is my explanation of bloodstone re: the black blood sitting with you?

ETA: I'm also curious what you think of the notion that I added in the comments about the moon meteors primarily enabling necromancy of various sorts, as far as answering the question "what exactly did the moon meteors do, magically?"

The shadowbinders are surely undergoing fire transformations like Mel, and it's likely that Quaithe is farther along in the process.

[Falcon2908]

I didn't understand one thing btw. I understand the bloodstone emperor was the first azor ahai. He enslaved his people and did all sorts of heinous things. He worshipped a black stone and practiced sorcery. But then, how did he save the world? Or who did really save the world? Did someone wield dawn (You could call it the real lightbringer) and fought azor ahai (bloodstone emperor wielding the dark lightbringer) ?

[LordImp]

Red priests= Fire Others

[Durran Durrandon]

Two characters who George uses to symbolize Azor Ahai at various times are Beric Dondarion and Stannis Baratheon, who both wield flaming swords and both are associated with black blood and shadow. Beric the “fire-wight” bleeds black blood when he is “killed” by the Hound in the underground weirwood cave, suggesting that his fire resurrection by Thoros has some how transformed his blood from red to black. He very dramatically emerges from the deep shadows in his first appearance as resurrected Beric.

SNIP

In this last scene, Melisandre has just seen a series of visions in the nightfire (the “black and bloody tide,” Bloodraven and Bran, shadow skulls and the shadow of dragon wings, asking to see Azor Ahai and seeing only “Snow,” etc). The shuddering, fire inside her, the shimmering and transforming and the lover’s hand are easily recognized as Lightbringer forging language. When someone has “the fire inside of them,” they are being transformed – the blood is being transformed into black blood. Nissa Nissa had “the fire” inside her as well, and then her burnt and blackened blood went into the “steel” of Lightbringer.

If Lightbringer the sword was made from a black bloodstone moon meteor, then the blood of the moon goddess did indeed go into the steel of Lightbringer, literally and symbolically.

So I didn't read this as closely as I should have, but yes this exactly is what I am thinking. Add in that NN/AE was likely a proto Red Priestess -Queen, with literal fire in her blood.

But I would back off on fire-wight. Beric isn't an animated corpse like the wight, in rebirth he is transformed into a living fire being. Faster and more dramaticaly than Melisandre, and as he says, "fire consumes". But it bothers him, and this is the way in which he his not like a soules s creature on auto pilot. He is bothered by the transformation of his self, his soul.

[LmL]

I didn't understand one thing btw. I understand the bloodstone emperor was the first azor ahai. He enslaved his people and did all sorts of heinous things. He worshipped a black stone and practiced sorcery. But then, how did he save the world? Or who did really save the world? Did someone wield dawn (You could call it the real lightbringer) and fought azor ahai (bloodstone emperor wielding the dark lightbringer) ?

Ok, so yes, I think the first wielder of Dawn did fight AA and dark LB, probably at Battle Isle. That's the logical place for the BSE to invade Westeros, given the fused stone citadel there. After that, I think that Dark LB was reforged, dragon glass added per Radio Westeros, and then it became the dragonsteel of the Last Hero and went north to fight others or whatever the LH did. I do not know who the LH was - was it a humbled, or undead AA? Was it AA's son? Was it the first Stark? I am entertaining all of these ideas. I do not know. But what I am saying is that the BSE AA started off as a tyrant, causing the LN (or symbolizing its cause, as the case may be), and that Dark LB was not light-bringer, but dark-bringing. It's flame, I think , was red and black like Drogon's.

Dawn may well be a match for the swords of pale fire which the gemstone emperors were holding. It may be a similar tech, but with added ice magic. Dawn does seem very icy, but I don't think it can be a straight Others sword either, because it is not crystal. I do think Dawn involves a pale stone meteor, just as the story says, but it must have been ice forged or ice-tempered or something. It's likely that all the sword smithing tech comes from the GEotD, in the case of Dawn and LB.

[LmL]

So I didn't read this as closely as I should have, but yes this exactly is what I am thinking. Add in that NN/AE was likely a proto Red Priestess -Queen, with literal fire in her blood.

But I would back off on fire-wight. Beric isn't an animated corpse like the wight, in rebirth he is transformed into a living fire being. Faster and more dramaticaly than Melisandre, and as he says, "fire consumes". But it bothers him, and this is the way in which he his not like a soules s creature on auto pilot. He is bothered by the transformation of his self, his soul.

I guess I am presupposing that "fire-wights" are not the same as ice wights. Fire wight isn't a real term, even, just a short hand for "people resurrected with fire." It seems clear the resurrection process for fire and ice has different results. I would say that the fire resurrection is shadow binding, where the ghost is bound to the resurrected body instead of wandering off. Cold wights, however, see, like animated meat. Do they retain a bit of memory? Maybe, or maybe the wights knew where to go because the Others were controlling them. It's possible the ghost of the cold wight is trapped inside, a helpless viewer to their own actions, also. Someone proposed that recently. But either way, clearly some difference there.

As for Mel, there is an issue of where in the process she is. It's possible that the NQ was once in a similar state to Mel, human but with blue ice blood, and later she became what we would recognize as a full other. Maybe. Or maybe she gave birth to full others.

[Durran Durrandon]

I guess I am presupposing that "fire-wights" are not the same as ice wights. Fire wight isn't a real term, even, just a short hand for "people resurrected with fire." It seems clear the resurrection process for fire and ice has different results. I would say that the fire resurrection is shadow binding, where the ghost is bound to the resurrected body instead of wandering off. Cold wights, however, see, like animated meat. Do they retain a bit of memory? Maybe, or maybe the wights knew where to go because the Others were controlling them. It's possible the ghost of the cold wight is trapped inside, a helpless viewer to their own actions, also. Someone proposed that recently. But either way, clearly some difference there.

As for Mel, there is an issue of where in the process she is. It's possible that the NQ was once in a similar state to Mel, human but with blue ice blood, and later she became what we would recognize as a full other. Maybe. Or maybe she gave birth to full others.

We have seen Mirri Maz Fur shadow bind. It does not look like Thoros breathing fire into Beric and Beric coming back to life. It is Beric that brings back LSH. He doesn't shadow bind. He just breaths fire into her. They are not bound shadows. Its line when Vayrma Six Skins is floating about becoming one with nature and boom he is sucked into his wolf. Similarly, Beric and Cat are sucked back into their bodies, because tyre body is alive,just transformed by fire.

The important thing is that Beric, and by extension LSH, are much more lie Mel than they are like wights,which show no evidence of agency or identity nor do they even seen to be repositories of living cold, like the Others. Beric and LSH are much more like fire Others than fire weights, more importantly they are like our fire priestess-empress Nissa Nissa. Which would seen to matter since there seems like their is a high likelihood that LSH will get run through the heart by either Brienne or Jaime with the sword you insist is half of the sword you insist was AA red sword of bad mono.

[LmL]

Whoa, whoa, whoa, who says we know what shadow binding looks like? Who's to say MMD performed a shadow binding? We really have no idea. I am merely speculating that shadow binding consists of binding a ghost (shadow) to something. Any of the magics performed by Quaithe, MMD, Mel, Thoros, or Beric COULD be shadowbinding, or several of them could be. It might be specific to a ritual, or it might be a general type of activity that can happen several ways. So just slow you're roll there, this is all very speculative territory. Not to say any of your ideas are wrong, just that it's a fairly undefined concept.

That said, I do agree on that the fire wights seem to have some part of their former selves. We've talked about this before, and we disagree a bit - I think the act like shades or ghosts, who only really remember the last part of their lives, and who are obsessed with whatever they were doing when they died. That is pretty much the most common perception of how "ghosts" behave. To me, "shadow" sounds like "ghost." In that light, Mel is shadowbinding part of Stannis's shadow into some sort of corporeal form (probably by the addition of Stannis physical sperm and her physical egg), and Thoros is shadowbinding Beric, meaning, he bound Beric's shade (which would have fled the body) and reanimated it with fire.

But, let's say you're right, that his soul is there, not just his ghost. In that case, he is basically soul-bound, which isn't a term in ASOIAF but is in other fantasy. Perhaps that's what is going on. Regardless, it may be a distinction without a difference - we agree they are resurrected, we agree they have some personality and part of their old self, and we know they have black blood and are resurrected with fire magic. They are not like cold wights, who are zombies. We agree on the end result of all that, but differ a bit on the technicalities. Bit as I said, it's all fairly speculative.

The thing about Beric and Stoneheart being like Others - it depends on how the Others are created. Are the resurrected, or transformed? I tend to think transformed, in which case Others would really be more like whatever Mel is, and probably what Quaithe is. We don't know how far that transformation can go (thinking of the navigators in Dune now).

I think that fire wights are just different than cold wights. "Wights" basically means "killed, and resurrected" in this sense. The fire resurrects have way more consciousness than the cold ones, for whatever reason.

And then we have Coldhands.

[Durran Durrandon]

Whoa, whoa, whoa, who says we know what shadow binding looks like? Who's to say MMD performed a shadow binding? We really have no idea. I am merely speculating that shadow binding consists of binding a ghost (shadow) to something. Any of the magics performed by Quaithe, MMD, Mel, Thoros, or Beric COULD be shadowbinding, or several of them could be. It might be specific to a ritual, or it might be a general type of activity that can happen several ways. So just slow you're roll there, this is all very speculative territory. Not to say any of your ideas are wrong, just that it's a fairly undefined concept.

That said, I do agree on that the fire wights seem to have some part of their former selves. We've talked about this before, and we disagree a bit - I think the act like shades or ghosts, who only really remember the last part of their lives, and who are obsessed with whatever they were doing when they died. That is pretty much the most common perception of how "ghosts" behave. To me, "shadow" sounds like "ghost." In that light, Mel is shadowbinding part of Stannis's shadow into some sort of corporeal form (probably by the addition of Stannis physical sperm and her physical egg), and Thoros is shadowbinding Beric, meaning, he bound Beric's shade (which would have fled the body) and reanimated it with fire.

But, let's say you're right, that his soul is there, not just his ghost. In that case, he is basically soul-bound, which isn't a term in ASOIAF but is in other fantasy. Perhaps that's what is going on. Regardless, it may be a distinction without a difference - we agree they are resurrected, we agree they have some personality and part of their old self, and we know they have black blood and are resurrected with fire magic. They are not like cold wights, who are zombies. We agree on the end result of all that, but differ a bit on the technicalities. Bit as I said, it's all fairly speculative.

The thing about Beric and Stoneheart being like Others - it depends on how the Others are created. Are the resurrected, or transformed? I tend to think transformed, in which case Others would really be more like whatever Mel is, and probably what Quaithe is. We don't know how far that transformation can go (thinking of the navigators in Dune now).

I think that fire wights are just different than cold wights. "Wights" basically means "killed, and resurrected" in this sense. The fire resurrects have way more consciousness than the cold ones, for whatever reason.

And then we have Coldhands.

Speculative, this is what a shadow binding ritual looks like.

"Mirri Maz Duurs voice rose to a high, ululating wail that sent a shiver down Danys back. Some of the Dothraki began to mutter and back away. The tent was aglow with the light of braziers within. Through the blood-spattered sandsilk, she glimpsed shadows moving. Mirri Maz Duur was dancing, and not alone.. .

The sound of Mirri Maz Duurs voice was like a funeral dirge. Inside the tent, the shadows whirled." GoT 760-762

It's all speculative. Given what little metaphysics GRRM has laid out. The the distinction you are laying out between a soul and a ghost or shade, is totally speculative. Soul binding from other fantasies, speculative.

This however sounds birthing like Mirri Maz Duur's shadowy ritual.

"I gave him the good gods own kiss to send him on his way. I filled my mouth with fire and breathed the flames inside him, down his throat to lungs and heart and soul. The last kiss it is called, and many a time I saw the old priests bestow it on the Lords servants as they died. I had given it a time or two myself, as all priests must. But never before had I felt a dead man shudder as the fire filled him, nor seen his eyes come open." SOS 587

He is resurrected. Wights aren't resurrected they are reanimated. They aren't alive. Beric is alive and transformed by the process, in the same way Mel is. We have seen the black fiery blood from both. They are living fire. Or at least partialy, and continually more so.

I suspect the process for Beric has been much more rapid and he has been more aware of the assault on his identity and memories. He is disturbed by the loss of self.

"Fire consumes. Lord Beric stood behind them, and there was something in his voice that silenced Thoros at once. It consumes , and when it is done there is nothing left. Nothing . Beric. Sweet friend. The priest touched the lightning lord on the forearm. What are you saying?Nothing I have not said before. Six times, Thoros? Six times is too many. He turned away abruptly." SoS 644

He is losing his memories to his new body. Just like wargs lose their memories in their second life. Beric is on six, and the loss of self him. However, who is bothered by it? Beric. If you are worried about losing yourself, who is worried? If you are worried about your soul, you have one.

Look I know I am hypothesis building, but I think I am offering a better hypothesis than the fire wight analogy, one better supported by the text.

[LmL]

Speculative, this is what a shadow binding ritual looks like.

"Mirri Maz Duurs voice rose to a high, ululating wail that sent a shiver down Danys back. Some of the Dothraki began to mutter and back away. The tent was aglow with the light of braziers within. Through the blood-spattered sandsilk, she glimpsed shadows moving. Mirri Maz Duur was dancing, and not alone.. .

The sound of Mirri Maz Duurs voice was like a funeral dirge. Inside the tent, the shadows whirled." GoT 760-762

It's all speculative. Given what little metaphysics GRRM has laid out. The the distinction you are laying out between a soul and a ghost or shade, is totally speculative. Soul binding from other fantasies, speculative.

That was my point - we are all groping in the dark. You were starting to sound very sure of yourself, so I was reminding you that we are in very speculative territory. My ideas are equally speculative, no doubt.

​I don't think MMD's was a shadow binding, though. What shadows were bound? The shadows danced, yes, but where was any sort of thing that could be considered "binding?" If so, it would be binding Drogo's shadow to the horse, perhaps, as some have suggested. I am not sure.

This however sounds birthing like Mirri Maz Duur's shadowy ritual.

"I gave him the good gods own kiss to send him on his way. I filled my mouth with fire and breathed the flames inside him, down his throat to lungs and heart and soul. The last kiss it is called, and many a time I saw the old priests bestow it on the Lords servants as they died. I had given it a time or two myself, as all priests must. But never before had I felt a dead man shudder as the fire filled him, nor seen his eyes come open." SOS 587

He is resurrected. :thumbsup: Wights aren't resurrected they are reanimated. :thumbsup: They aren't alive. :thumbsup: Beric is alive and transformed by the process, in the same way Mel is.

No, not in the same way, unless Mel died also. Beric died, and does not remember much of his old life. Mel does not *seem* to have died, and she seems to have very sharp memories. So while you may consider Beric "alive" compared to a cold wight, his status as resurrected and amnesiac indicates a major distinction between Mel and Beric.

If your point is that fire magic is turning both of their blood black, I agree. It just seems like a different process, unless Mel died too. But then.. Mel is not losing herself or her memories.

We have seen the black fiery blood from both. They are living fire. Or at least partialy, and continually more so.

I suspect the process for Beric has been much more rapid and he has been more aware of the assault on his identity and memories. He is disturbed by the loss of self.

Beric died. That's the difference, I think. Otherwise, yes they do both have the fire-blackened blood, and they both seem a kind of living fire. Beric, however, didn't even want to live after a certain point, losing himself with every resurrection. Mel shows no loss of self or weariness with existence.

"Fire consumes. Lord Beric stood behind them, and there was something in his voice that silenced Thoros at once. It consumes , and when it is done there is nothing left. Nothing . Beric. Sweet friend. The priest touched the lightning lord on the forearm. What are you saying?Nothing I have not said before. Six times, Thoros? Six times is too many. He turned away abruptly." SoS 644

He is losing his memories to his new body. Just like wargs lose their memories in their second life. Beric is on six, and the loss of self him. However, who is bothered by it? Beric. If you are worried about losing yourself, who is worried? If you are worried about your soul, you have one.

How every existential. :thumbsup: He has some level of self-awareness, but I do not agree that necessarily means "soul." Ghosts are self aware also, to an extent.

​He may well have his soul, you may be right - again this is all speculative, I don't have any firm convictions here.

Look I know I am hypothesis building, but I think I am offering a better hypothesis than the fire wight analogy, one better supported by the text.

"Fire-wight" is not a term used in the book, merely one of convenience to mean "fire resurrected dead." Clearly, they do not function the same way as the cold wights. We don't have to call them fire-wights if that is creating confusion. We tend to agree on that there is a huge difference, that Beric is resurrected and the cold wights are animated meat sacks, for all intents and purposes. I'm not even sure our semantic differences about the mechanics here will even come into play. For the purposes of my essay, the main point is that fire magic transforms blood into black blood, and that this burned black blood is what explains the greasy black stone.

[LmL]

Hey everyone, I have a general question about the Valyrian steel, Lightbringer, and the black bloodstone.

Ned's sword drinks the light, as we saw in that scene with Oathkeeper and Tyrion. Most of you know that I tend to think that Ned's sword is unique, that it is the original "dark" Lightbringer of Azor Ahai. BUT, if it is not - and I am far from convinced about this either way - then I suspect what is happening is that ALL Valyrian steel blades are made with black bloodstone.

I have an essay forthcoming about the names of every Valyrian steel sword, and the lore surrounding each one. They all have hints about Lightbringer / the comet moon collision, similar to the case of Nightfall which I examined in the essay. All of them.

What does this mean, though? Is George simply using the modern dragonsteel to give us clues about Lightbringer? Ned's sword is the only one anyone has ever tried to change the color of, that we hear about. I do think Tobho has colored valyrian steel, because he speaks as though he has experience doing that very thing. There is a sword called Red Rain, which seems to imply a red steel sword, but it is not specified in the text. Ned's sword exhibits the strange, two layer behavior, where one layer drinks the light, turning crimson to dark blood red, and the other layer stays black, taking no coloring at all. All three of these things are unusual:

1. two distinct layers that do not mix
2. one layer takes no coloring whatsoever (black / very dark grey)
3. the other layer drinks the light and darkens the coloring to blood red

I analyze this as such: Tobho is using techniques and "spells" specifically designed to color valyrian steel. The layer which takes the coloring, the red layer, must be a type of steel, likely similar to Valyrian steel. But something is odd about it - it drinks the light. This, to me, indicates the bloodstone presence. I think the dark red layer is steel made from a bloodstone meteor, or a steel - bloodstone alloy of some kind. The other layer, the one which takes no effect from the coloring, must not be steel, right? I have always been a believer in Radio Westeros's theory that Lightbringer = LH dragonsteel, and that it contains dragon glass. So, this almost black layer would probably be the dragon glass, or the dragon glass-infused steel. Bloodstone is like frozen shadow fire, the opposite of dragon glass as frozen fire, so it seems possible the two substances do not mix.

But because we have never seen another V steel sword dissected, we can't know if this would happen with any of them. :bang:

In the scenario where Ned's sword is typical of V steel, and is not Lightbringer, then I am tempted to think that the Valyrians discovered bloodstone meteors, and this is what enabled them to make valyrian steel. The reason all the V Steel swords have Lightbringer hints might be because they are all made the same way that Lightbringer was. This way, Oathkeeper can still become a new Lightbringer, and all the red and black imagery around the sword and all the morningstar imagery around Brienne can still make sense; the sword can still take red and black fire just as I think the original LB did, etc. Both scenarios make most of the symbolism work pretty well.

Which scenario seems more likely?

The Valyrians would have probably discovered this bloodstone at the Isle of Toads, which is right next to Gorgossos, where the Valyrians had a slave colony, and built a fused stone fortress. They took it from Ghis, and it survived after the Doom for 77 years before the "red death" descended upon them. That means Gorgossos was up and running for 5,00 years, which is horrible to think about. That's also the one confirmed location where we know animal-human interbreeding was performed, which I have always suspected involved that black bloodstone. Heebie-jeebies much? Point being, the may eventually have tried using bloodstone meteor rock to make swords, and called it a eureka! moment.

When did the Valyrians start making V Steel swords? The oldest sword on record we have is about 500-600 years ago, which is only 100-200 years before the Doom. Valyria had existed for 5,000 years, taming the 14 fires and enslaving millions and doing all their dragon magic... and then, shortly after they might have started making V Steel, the whole thing blew up. I do buy the idea that the Faceless Men were involved, but that is probably not the sole cause. If the bloodstone was the special sauce in the Valyrian Steel Swords, then... it may have had something to do with the big explosion, or the possible descent into madness and internal strife which destabilized the empire and enabled the FM to assassinate mages or whatever.

Look what happened to Asshai.. very similar to Valyria. Asshai may well have been totally uninhabitable, as Valyria is now, 400 years after the LN disaster. It's 8,000 years to cool down.. and it is still very toxic. Valyria might just be in the early stages of a similar disaster. I'm not saying Valyria got hit by a comet, but the interaction of fire magic, human sacrifice, bloodstone meteors, and the 14 fires may have been combustable.

Which makes more sense in terms of ramifications for the main plot of the story? Which one feels closer to the truth? :dunno: