MARTIN’S POV & PRONOUN ERRORS in AGoT “PROLOGUE”

[Arakan]

Thanks!!!

I wonder, how this generality can be expressed in english? One way could be the passive voice, but this might lead to a 'surly', not 'flowing' syntax... even worse (it feels to me) would be to use a form like "one could taste it".

"One could taste it" is IMO fine.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

"One could taste it" is IMO fine.

Hm, I think it depends on how one might subconsciously translate it in his/her/their (? ;) ) head. Language aesthetics and all.

[Chocs]

This is like a perfect grammar class :D For someone like me whose first language is not English, it really opens my eyes on lots of things. :)

[Zizoz]

Evita,

I am not a native english speaker. In my language, "you" can be used as an indefinite subject to express a generality, like the "on" pronoun of french, if by chance you're familiar with the language. So, it never occured to me that it might be an error - I just thought that it had the same usage in english too.

As a native English speaker this is also how I read it.

Edit: I will say that it does seem rather informal, and I'd probably think it odd if it were not filtered through Will. So it's Will who thinks that you can taste the fear, but he's not thinking the words "You could taste it" which is why it wouldn't make sense for it to be italicized.

[evita mgfs]

In "You could taste it," isn't this just the generic you? He's not actually changing the POV. "One could taste it" doesn't work stylistically.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generic_you

from http://www.grammar-worksheets.com/worksheets/point-of-view.php

The Problem

When we write quickly, we sometimes change the point of view of a sentence or a paragraph by switching from one pronoun perspective to another. This switch in perspective is called a switch in point of view or a pronoun shift. For a polished, professional writing style in English, it is important that we maintain the point of view that we establish. Let us take, for example, the first sentence in this paragraph. We could easily have written, "When we write quickly, you sometimes change the point of view of a sentence or paragraph." In this sentence, we started with the pronoun "we," which is 1st person plural, and we switched to "you," which is second person (singular or plural). This switch detracts from our writing style. Once we establish a point of view through the use of a pronoun, we should maintain that perspective, unless we have good reason to switch it.

Examples of Pronoun Shifts

• As we rode into town, you could hear the silence of the frightened residents.

• When I listened to Bach, you could almost feel a mathematical rhythm taking over your thoughts.

• If we did not text while we drove, you would not have as many accidents as there are.

These three sentences exhibit a shift in perspective. The point of view changes because the use of pronouns changes. In the first sentence, we start with the pronoun "we" (first person) and shift to the pronoun "you" (second person). This shift hurts our writing style.

The Solution (Correcting Pronoun Shifts)

We can maintain a consistent point of view and avoid shifts in pronouns in two ways.

1.Use the same pronoun in our sentences.

2. A better solution is to use a noun in the first part of the sentence. In this manner, the pronoun use in the second part becomes almost obvious.

Correct Examples

• Good: As we rode into town, we could hear the silence of the frightened residents.

Better: As the soldiers rode into town, they could hear the silence of the frightened residents.

• Good (and Better): When I listened to Bach, I could almost feel a mathematical rhythm taking over my thoughts.

When we use the pronoun "I" (first person) we really cannot use a noun. Referring to ourselves in the third person sounds odd.

• Good: If we did not text while we drove, we would not have as many accidents as we have.

Better: If drivers did not text while they drove, fewer accidents would occur.

Sometimes we must revise the sentence to avoid a shift in pronoun. Sometimes this revision makes the sentence shorter, better, and clearer.

This page covers maintaining a consistent point of view in sentences. To do so, we must maintain the perspective we establish in the beginning. Take a look through this page. With the exception of this sentence, you will notice a "we" (first person plural) perspective. Remember this: To improve our writing style in English, we must maintain a consistent point of view in our sentences and throughout the entire paragraph or essay.

Links for Avoiding Shifts in Point of View or Pronoun Shifts in Your Writing

These links discuss the problem of shifts in point of view and shifts in pronoun. They also offer suggestions for avoiding these problems.

•Capital Community College

You get a simple, concise explanation of what it means to maintain a consitent point of view. In fact, their title says it: "Consistency: Making Pronoun Point of View Consistent." Two online exercises are provided, where students must rewrite a paragraph with a mixed point of view. Yes, answers are provided and the site is free.

•English Software

It's a commercial site, and it tries to sell you a product. However, the short 7-paragraph explanation on keeping a consistent point of view is useful.

•Big Dog's Grammar

The page has two sections. Scroll down to the section on "Pronouns." It's good. The site also provides an short online quiz.

•Carson-Newman College: Pronoun Shifts

You get one page of clear explanations and examples in pronoun shifts. The page also includes a nice injunction against using the pronoun "one," as in "One must agree that this usage sounds stuffy."

•Carson-Newman College: Pronoun Shifts

You get one page of clear explanations and examples in pronoun shifts. The page also includes a nice injunction against using the pronoun "one," as in "One must agree that this usage sounds stuffy."

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

In "You could taste it," isn't this just the generic you? He's not actually changing the POV. "One could taste it" doesn't work stylistically.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generic_you

Yes, it is. That's also exactly how I expect a simple chap like Will to describe things. No, we didn't experience a sudden switch to some bizarre second person narrative; it's still Will saying that Gared was so nervous you could taste it, man.

[Greg B]

Too bad Will isn't Braavosi: "A man could taste it."

[Ser Leftwich]

Will is probably not as well versed in pronoun usage as say, Oscar Wilde.

[evita mgfs]

Will is probably not as well versed in pronoun usage as say, Oscar Wilde.

YOU DID NOT READ MY ESSAY!

MARTIN IS THE WRITER, not Will!

He / you cannot have it both ways!

[evita mgfs]

Yes, it is. That's also exactly how I expect a simple chap like Will to describe things. No, we didn't experience a sudden switch to some bizarre second person narrative; it's still Will saying that Gared was so nervous you could taste it, man.

SEE ABOVE:

MARTIN IS THE WRITER, NOT WILL!

[Ser Brandon Badwater]

Yes, it is. That's also exactly how I expect a simple chap like Will to describe things. No, we didn't experience a sudden switch to some bizarre second person narrative; it's still Will saying that Gared was so nervous you could taste it, man.

:thumbsup: "One could taste it" could be applied to high lords or learned men, but not to Will. You also have to take into account over 95% of readers probably do not want to be too intellectually challenged.

[evita mgfs]

MARTIN and NOMENCLATURE

WILL and GARED in the “PROLOGUE” from A GAME of THRONES

Will and Gared may be dispensable, “generic” rangers on a fatal mission whose lives are forfeit because of their inexperienced commander Ser Waymar Royce, but Martin names them with purpose as a way to honor and thank two authors who inspire his prose fiction in A Song of Ice and Fire Series. The appearance of the names Will and Gared in the first “Prologue” of a voluminous series of novels speaks to the degree of gratitude Martin owes his sources.

First, Will is short for “William”, or for “William Shakespeare”, the celebrated English writer whose works still have universal appeal hundreds of years after his death. It is no secret that Martin borrows from “the bard”, and among Shakespeare’s many poetic plays that Martin alludes to in conflicts, plot elements, and language, The Tragedy of Julius Caesar ranks high as the source material Martin prefers, putting his own “spin” on ideas and themes throughout his fantasy novels.

To convey Will’s association with Shakespeare, Martin includes details pertaining to Will’s crime of poaching a deer that parallels similar events Shakespeare biographers debate happened to young Will Shakespeare before his arrival in London.

Martin says of Will’s crime:

“Will had been a hunter before he joined the Night’s Watch. Well, a poacher in truth. Mallister freeriders had caught him red-handed in the Mallisters’ own woods, skinning one of the Mallisters’ own bucks, and it had been a choice of putting on the black or losing a hand” (AGoT).

Likewise, William Shakespeare trespasses on Sir Thomas Lucy’s property to kill a deer. In the article “In Search of Shakespeare: The Poaching Myth 1598”, a PBS.org author writes:

“Though the tale is widely discredited today, three seventeenth-century accounts claim that Shakespeare was once beaten and imprisoned for poaching [a deer]. The alleged crime took place on land belonging to Sir Thomas Lucy - one of Walsingham's and Elizabeth's chief enforcers”. [http://www.pbs.org/shakespeare/events/event83.html]].

Although Will and Will share like crimes, their punishments are quite different. Ranger Will chooses an option that will take him a lifetime to repay, but he prefers becoming a Sworn Brother of the Night’s Watch over losing his hand, which is an early allusion to the stigma associated with disfigurement in Martin’s world of ice and fire.

Second, the name “Gared” has an unusual spelling, one not Americanized with a “J”. However, Martin aspires to create memorable characters, and he alters spellings of familiar names to give them a medieval flare. Analyzing the spelling of “Gared” requires some mental creativity: when readers divide “Gared” into two syllables, GAR / ED, and transpose them, one with the other, the “revised” appellation is EDGAR, the first name of American author and poet Edgar Allan Poe.

Of course, the obvious inspiration Martin takes from Poe is Lord Commander Mormont’s talking raven, a character that owes a debt of gratitude to Poe’s poem “The Raven”. The title bird flies in a window and perches on a bust of Athena, and he punctuates any question the narrator poses by saying hauntingly “Nevermore!” The narrator asks the raven if he will ever see his dead lover Lenore: quothe the raven, “Nevermore!”

Furthermore, Poe’s favorite thematic inclusion in several of his short stories is the death of a beautiful woman. In Martin’s I & F Series, the death of Lyanna Stark haunts Ned and figures in many other character arcs throughout the novels.

[Greg B]

YOU DID NOT READ MY ESSAY!

MARTIN IS THE WRITER, not Will!

He / you cannot have it both ways!

Martin writes in the voice of his POV character, as appropriate in third person limited.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

SEE ABOVE:

MARTIN IS THE WRITER, NOT WILL!

Thank you for the capital letters, make things much clearer.

MARTIN CREATES A NARRATOR'S UNIQUE VOICE, THOUGH!1! WHICH INVOLVES, AMONG OTHER THINGS, THEIR COMMAND OF THE LANGUAGE! AN UNEDUCATED POACHER NOT ONLY DOESN'T HAVE TO, HE SHOULDN'T SOUND LIKE A SCHOLAR!

I've never been a big fan of linguistic purism, but after your advocacy, I'm even less of a fan.

[Ser Leftwich]

YOU DID NOT READ MY ESSAY!

MARTIN IS THE WRITER, not Will!

He / you cannot have it both ways!

I did read it. Read my above comments and your praise of my comments. Will does not have the advantage of inner italicized thoughts.

Just because GRRM is writing doesn't mean he is not influenced to actions/word choice depending on the character.

[evita mgfs]

I did read it. Read my above comments and your praise of my comments. Will does not have the advantage of inner italicized thoughts.

Just because GRRM is writing doesn't mean he is not influenced to actions/word choice depending on the character.

Sorry! :bowdown: :bowdown: You are right, and thank you.

I realize you are the one who actually "understood" by referencing Cresson's Prologue.

But I did add my notes on nomenclature because I believe Martin chose names, especially Will, on purpose.

[Mithras]

Too bad Will isn't Braavosi: "A man could taste it."

In fact, the Lorathi use that discourse. It is something deriving from their religion and culture.

[LiveFirstDieLater]

While they extended grammar lesson was cute, this is not an English paper but a work of literature. As many pointed at it above the translation to "proper" English would be to replace "you" with "one". Which is a very common colloquial "mistake". Since this is a POV chapter through the lense of an uneducated character (as opposed to a "lordling") the "common speech" adds not only to the flavor but to the flow. So while it is not italisized or in quotes it is much the same as Martin's use of "m'lord" and "my lord". Which is quite explicitly revealing of the character in question. But still, I enjoyed the throwback to middle school English, wish this had been our text then. When I was falling in love with these books as they were released. You couldn't have chosen a better option. See what I did there... Should have been, "One couldn't have..." But you knew what I meant.

[evita mgfs]

While they extended grammar lesson was cute, this is not an English paper but a work of literature. As many pointed at it above the translation to "proper" English would be to replace "you" with "one". Which is a very common colloquial "mistake". Since this is a POV chapter through the lense of an uneducated character (as opposed to a "lordling") the "common speech" adds not only to the flavor but to the flow. So while it is not italisized or in quotes it is much the same as Martin's use of "m'lord" and "my lord". Which is quite explicitly revealing of the character in question. But still, I enjoyed the throwback to middle school English, wish this had been our text then. When I was falling in love with these books as they were released. You couldn't have chosen a better option. See what I did there... Should have been, "One couldn't have..." But you knew what I meant.

THANKS

Martin is not writing from Will's first person point of view! It IS LIMITED THIRD!

What about the DANGLING MODIFIER AND PRONNOUN REFERENCE ISSUES?

Please, address those?

Are they because poor dumb Will does not know how to write using correct grammar?

Martin does not emulate Twain in Huck Finn.

I truly think people do not understand good style and diction, which is sad.

I think Martin needs an editor like Maxwell Perkins!

Le

[Ser Brandon Badwater]

THANKS

Martin is not writing from Will's first person point of view! It IS LIMITED THIRD!

What about the DANGLING MODIFIER AND PRONNOUN REFERENCE ISSUES?

Please, address those?

Are they because poor dumb Will does not know how to write using correct grammar?

Martin does not emulate Twain in Huck Finn.

I truly think people do not understand good style and diction, which is sad.

I think Martin needs an editor like Maxwell Perkins!

Le

Do you judge SMS text messages when you receive them? :worried: