R+L=J v147

[Angalin]

1. Play nice with other posters.

2. Show stuff in show forum.

Thank you.

[J. Stargaryen]

Aye, that's the point. Rhaegar told Starks he is planning to deflower their sister. For the reasons unknown. I mean reasons for publicity, not reasons to deflower.

It's an interesting question. Is that what the crowning meant in universe, or is that bit of knowledge more for the benefit of the readers?

I still lean towards the interpretation that the crowning of Lyanna was to honor her deeds as the KotLT. Although I could see something more sinister, as well. Ashara was supposedly dishonored at HH, and by a Stark if the popular interpretation is correct, so it might make sense that Arthur's bff would threaten to dishonor/deflower Lyanna, the Stark maiden.

[Sly Wren]

It's an interesting question. Is that what the crowning meant in universe, or is that bit of knowledge more for the benefit of the readers?

I still lean towards the interpretation that the crowning of Lyanna was to honor her deeds as the KotLT. Although I could see something more sinister, as well. Ashara was supposedly dishonored at HH, and by a Stark if the popular interpretation is correct, so it might make sense that Arthur's bff would threaten to dishonor/deflower Lyanna, the Stark maiden.

That would definitely make all smiles die--especially among the Starks. Maybe could help explain why the Daynes respect Ned--they know the backstory, know how much the whole mess has cost everyone, and and respect Ned for being above-it-all enough to bring the sword back--and give Arthur a proper burial. Maybe.

All speculation--but the wreath moment has a few options--the bolded works. As does the unbolded. And both require Rhaegar to be a bit careless as to the effects of his actions--perfectly reasonable faults. . . .

[Mother of Dragons]

That would definitely make all smiles die--especially among the Starks. Maybe could help explain why the Daynes respect Ned--they know the backstory, know how much the whole mess has cost everyone, and and respect Ned for being above-it-all enough to bring the sword back--and give Arthur a proper burial. Maybe.

All speculation--but the wreath moment has a few options--the bolded works. As does the unbolded. And both require Rhaegar to be a bit careless as to the effects of his actions--perfectly reasonable faults. . . .

Yes, the whole part about Rhaegar crowning Lyanna as QoLaB has been puzzling to me, one thing I haven't been able to make sense of. Even if it's because he's having an affair with Lyanna, it seemed out of character for him to disrespect Elia like that. I didn't get the impression Rhaegar was a dick.

Also, if I'm not mistaken, Lyanna didn't touch the crown, right? Also seems odd if she rejected the crown if she reciprocated his affections.

[wolfmaid7]

It's an interesting question. Is that what the crowning meant in universe, or is that bit of knowledge more for the benefit of the readers?

I still lean towards the interpretation that the crowning of Lyanna was to honor her deeds as the KotLT. Although I could see something more sinister, as well. Ashara was supposedly dishonored at HH, and by a Stark if the popular interpretation is correct, so it might make sense that Arthur's bff would threaten to dishonor/deflower Lyanna, the Stark maiden.

I believe its an in universe meaning especially if we take in consideration Stark cultural history.It should also be noted that the message the Starks got may not be the same everyone else did. For others not familar with the tale of Bael deflowering a Stark maiden,Rhaegar was probably dissing his wife (who i think knew what Rhaega was up to by the way).But then the gesture wasn't directed at anyone else except the Starks.

The thing with honoring her deeds as KOTLT we have to make a guess that somehow he figured her out,there's no connection except the shield being found hanging in a tree.Which carries its own outer universe symbolism. A girl's maiden head is also called her shield.

Small Other: Aye, that's the point. Rhaegar told Starks he is planning to deflower their sister. For the reasons unknown. I mean reasons for publicity, not reasons to deflower.

Jstar i'm sorry i'm piggy backing off of you because for some reason i can't see Small Other's post by itself on my phone.So seeing as your reply in that vein i went there.The page is coming up all wonky for some reason...Anyhow

Ok lets pull it back a bit and slow down by looking at the options.Which could be Rhaegar saying he was planning to deflower Lyanna ( stupid thing to do,i mean really dumb.That would be the stupidest thing since Ramses invaded Syria),

or was he saying deflowering had already occured? I'm leading toward this.

[WeaselPie]

//

Ok lets pull it back a bit and slow down by looking at the options.Which could be Rhaegar saying he was planning to deflower Lyanna ( stupid thing to do,i mean really dunm)

or was he saying deflowering had already occured? I'm leading toward this.

On your last thought.. exactly how many roses were in that crown?

Rhetorical of course, but a lot more than one.

[Mother of Dragons]

I believe its an in universe meaning especially if we take in consideration Stark cultural history.It should also be noted that the message the Starks got may not be the same everyone else did. For others not familar with the tale of Bael deflowering a Stark maiden,Rhaegar was probably dissing his wife (who i think knew what Rhaega was up to by the way).But then the gesture wasn't directed at anyone else except the Starks.

.Which could be Rhaegar saying he was planning to deflower Lyanna ( stupid thing to do,i mean really dunm)

or was he saying deflowering had already occured? I'm leading toward this.

Could you elaborate on what you think your theory is? You think R was insulting the Starks and Elia was in on it? What would be the motivation? Sorry if I'm misunderstanding you.

[Sly Wren]

Yes, the whole part about Rhaegar crowning Lyanna as QoLaB has been puzzling to me, one thing I haven't been able to make sense of. Even if it's because he's having an affair with Lyanna, it seemed out of character for him to disrespect Elia like that. I didn't get the impression Rhaegar was a dick.

Also, if I'm not mistaken, Lyanna didn't touch the crown, right? Also seems odd if she rejected the crown if she reciprocated his affections.

Ah--I'm away from my books and can't check. Can't remember if it says or not--I think not, but can't remember . . .

But in Ned's dream, he touches the crown and the thorns cut him--could work either way--if she accepted the crown, thorns could symbolize the gift turning sour--and cutting Ned. If she didn't, could be just hostile--looks pretty (roses after all) but hostile--and cutting Ned and others.

But agree that the info we have on Rhaegar doesn't make him horrible per se--hints at questionable judgment, but not usually an out and out jerk. Still, if JStargaryen is right, if Rhaegar thought he was defending his friend's sister's honor--could be "defensible" in this world.

And ties into Bael the Bard again--a Stark maiden being used to score points (bad pun) against a Stark man and potentially future Lord (presumably Ned or Brandon) . . .

[J. Stargaryen]

That would definitely make all smiles die--especially among the Starks. Maybe could help explain why the Daynes respect Ned--they know the backstory, know how much the whole mess has cost everyone, and and respect Ned for being above-it-all enough to bring the sword back--and give Arthur a proper burial. Maybe.

All speculation--but the wreath moment has a few options--the bolded works. As does the unbolded. And both require Rhaegar to be a bit careless as to the effects of his actions--perfectly reasonable faults. . . .

Agreed, but I think the smiles would have died regardless. Rhaegar crowning not-Elia is something of a scandal.

Agreed. I'm not sure why he chose Lyanna. Was it just one reason, or a combination of things? One of the real world meanings of blue roses is, love at first sight. Was there a romantic component already? Maybe not necessarily anything physical yet but emotionally.

Yes, the whole part about Rhaegar crowning Lyanna as QoLaB has been puzzling to me, one thing I haven't been able to make sense of. Even if it's because he's having an affair with Lyanna, it seemed out of character for him to disrespect Elia like that. I didn't get the impression Rhaegar was a dick.

Also, if I'm not mistaken, Lyanna didn't touch the crown, right? Also seems odd if she rejected the crown if she reciprocated his affections.

Rhaegar placed it in her lap. It doesn't say what happened to it after, though Ned thinks of Lyanna and roses/flowers on multiple occasions. In other words, it doesn't seem like she rejected the crown.

I believe its an in universe meaning especially if we take in consideration Stark cultural history.It should also be noted that the message the Starks got may not be the same everyone else did. For others not familar with the tale of Bael deflowering a Stark maiden,Rhaegar was probably dissing his wife (who i think knew what Rhaega was up to by the way).But then the gesture wasn't directed at anyone else except the Starks.

The thing with honoring her deeds as KOTLT we have to make a guess that somehow he figured her out,there's no connection except the shield being found hanging in a tree.Which carries its own outer universe symbolism. A girl's maiden head is also called her shield.

Jstar i'm sorry i'm piggy backing off of you because for some reason i can't see Small Other's post by itself on my phone.So seeing as your reply in that vein i went there.The page is coming up all wonky for some reason...Anyhow

Ok lets pull it back a bit and slow down by looking at the options.Which could be Rhaegar saying he was planning to deflower Lyanna ( stupid thing to do,i mean really dunm)

or was he saying deflowering had already occured? I'm leading toward this.

I suppose it's possible that Rhaegar and Lyanna had a roll in the grass at HH, maybe after he discovered she was the KotLT. The shield/maidenhead connection is interesting, and a possible nice catch.

As far as connections between Lyanna and the KotLT, I would point to Ned's dream, where her statue is wearing the blue rose crown -- linking that dream to HH -- and weeping tears of blood. Weirwoods appear to be cry tears of blood, due to their red sap.

[LmL]

State of dissipation, your last post was totally incoherent. My point is simple. A competing theory to RLJ should have these things:

- Symbolic evidence around Jon pointing to his parentage (i.e. Blue roses and dragon imagery indicate a Stark-Targ parentage, so other proposed parentages need similar evidence)

- Logistical / circumstantial evidence (so and so in the right place, right time, etc)

And it should also:

- be able to explain how the RLJ clues actually mean something different (at least the main ones)

But really, those are my ideas of what a theory should have in order for people to be convinced - the true test is whether anyone can come up with a theory that a decent amount of people can find plausible. It's doesn't need majority support, no, but if someone writes a credible theory, will not at least some people find it credible? This is my point in raising issues of popularity or mass acceptance. Of course popularity doesn't determine truth - but if you can't even convince 10 - 20% of board users of ANY other theory about Jon's parents, I am saying that just might be because there isn't a good case to be made for anyone else. Do you think everyone so stupid that the truth is out there, but 95% of people can't see it? Meaning no offense, but I maintain that if there was decent evidence to support another theory about his parents, it would have found some support by now. And none has.

Again, if you can point me to this theory, by all means. If you want to write it, have at it. See if you can convince people! All the talk of poisoned wells and whatnot is BS. Make your case! Some people will buy it if it is even mildly credible.

As for the blue roses and symbolism.... You really show a lack of understanding of how this works, is all I can say. If Martin wants the blue roses to signify stolen maidens, he would put them around stolen maidens. If he wants the blue rose to mean something about Lyanna specifically, he would do exactly what he has done - put the roses around Lyanna-related things only. So... If blue roses don't appear next to someone, it is nonsensical to associate them with the symbol. This all seems really obvious.

[Voice]

A quick word on the blue rose growing from a chink in the Wall...

A chink in the Wall (shield) sounds like a weakness in armor. A weakness... in... armor. Armor is a symbol of knighthood (see D&E).

Jon Snow is no knight, but mayhaps his father was.

...a knight with a weakness.

That weakness was the blue rose. The blue rose is Lyanna, and now, that weakness fills the air with sweetness in the form of Jon. Jon is the chink in the Palestone Sword's (that is the Wall) honor/armor/tower. Arthur is the Palestone Sword of the Morning. That which caused the chink to grow is Lyanna Blue Rose.

Arthur planned on crowning Lyanna the QoLaB, but was unhorsed by his bff. Being a sucker for his bestie, Rhaegar spurned his horse past his own wife and laid the laurel on Lyanna's lap. Cue shitstorm.

P.S... I was disappointed in the radio silence my response to this generated as well:

And anyone who does is going to have to start with explaining why Hightower would willingly fight alongside Dayne, after he had broken so many of those precious KG oaths.

I don't mind starting with that. Hightower set no precedents, and neither did Dayne, if Arthur+Lyanna=Jon...

"Words are wind. If you love me, do not leave me."

"I swore a vow . . ."

". . . not to wed or father children. Well, I have drunk my moon tea, and you know I cannot marry you." She smiled. "Though I might be persuaded to keep you for my paramour."

"Now you mock me."

"Perhaps a little. Do you think you are the only Kingsguard who ever loved a woman?"

"There have always been men who found it easier to speak vows than to keep them," he admitted. Ser Boros Blount was no stranger to the Street of Silk, and Ser Preston Greenfield used to call at a certain draper's house whenever the draper was away, but Arys would not shame his Sworn Brothers by speaking of their failings. "Ser Terrence Toyne was found abed with his king's mistress," he said instead. "'Twas love, he swore, but it cost his life and hers, and brought about the downfall of his House and the death of the noblest knight who ever lived."

"Yes, and what of Lucamore the Lusty, with his three wives and sixteen children? The song always makes me laugh."

"The truth is not so funny. He was never called Lucamore the Lusty whilst he lived. His name was Ser Lucamore Strong, and his whole life was a lie. When his deceit was discovered, his own Sworn Brothers gelded him, and the Old King sent him to the Wall. Those sixteen children were left weeping. He was no true knight, no more than Terrence Toyne . . ."

"And the Dragonknight?" She flung the bedclothes aside and swung her legs to the floor. "The noblest knight who ever lived, you said, and he took his queen to bed and got her with child."

"I will not believe that," he said, offended. "The tale of Prince Aemon's treason with Queen Naerys was only that, a tale, a lie his brother told when he wished to set his trueborn son aside in favor of his bastard. Aegon was not called the Unworthy without cause." He found his swordbelt and buckled it around his waist. Though it looked queer against the silken Dornish undertunic, the familiar weight of longsword and dagger reminded him of who and what he was. "I will not be remembered as Ser Arys the Unworthy," he declared. "I will not soil my cloak."

"Yes," she said, "that fine white cloak. You forget, my great-uncle wore the same cloak. He died when I was little, yet I still remember him. He was as tall as a tower and used to tickle me until I could not breathe for laughing."

"I never had the honor to know Prince Lewyn," Ser Arys said, "but all agree that he was a great knight."

"A great knight with a paramour. She is an old woman now, but she was a rare beauty in her youth, men say."

Prince Lewyn? That tale Ser Arys had not heard. It shocked him. Terrence Toyne's treason and the deceits of Lucamore the Lusty were recorded in the White Book, but there was no hint of a woman on Prince Lewyn's page.

"My uncle always said that it was the sword in a man's hand that determined his worth, not the one between his legs," she went on, "so spare me all your pious talk of soiled cloaks. It is not our love that has dishonored you, it is the monsters you have served and the brutes you've called your brothers."

Mayhaps there was an unquoted response that didn't popup in my notifications? :dunno:

Edit:

As I pointed out in the last thread there are many ways to read the symbolism of the blue rose, not just one. Color me unimpressed with this as the only adequate reading of it.

I agree SFD. LmL has a great eye for detail, but tends to discuss his findings as if they are unequivocal and absolute, which is ironic considering how interpretive and esoteric they tend to be. That being said, the man can find a needle in a haystack like no other.

Hmm... Needle...

[WeaselPie]

A quick word on the blue rose growing from a chink in the Wall...

A chink in the Wall (shield) sounds like a weakness in armor. A weakness... in... armor. Armor is a symbol of knighthood (see D&E).

Jon Snow is no knight, but mayhaps his father was.

...a knight with a weakness.

That weakness was the blue rose. The blue rose is Lyanna, and now, that weakness fills the air with sweetness in the form of Jon. Jon is the chink in the Palestone Sword's (that is the Wall) honor/armor/tower. Arthur is the Palestone Sword of the Morning. That which caused the chink to grow is Lyanna Blue Rose.

Arthur planned on crowning Lyanna the QoLaB, but was unhorsed by his bff. Being a sucker for his bestie, Rhaegar spurned his horse past his own wife and laid the laurel on Lyanna's lap. Cue shitstorm.

P.S... I was disappointed in the radio silence my response to this generated as well:

Mayhaps there was a unquoted response that didn't popup in my notifications? :dunno:

I've used the word "vulnerability" for "chink." Thought-provoking stuff to equate it with a knight's armor, Voice!

[Sly Wren]

Agreed, but I think the smiles would have died regardless. Rhaegar crowning not-Elia is something of a scandal.

Agreed. I'm not sure why he chose Lyanna. Was it just one reason, or a combination of things? One of the real world meanings of blue roses is, love at first sight. Was there a romantic component already? Maybe not necessarily anything physical yet but emotionally.

Rhaegar placed it in her lap. It doesn't say what happened to it after, though Ned thinks of Lyanna and roses/flowers on multiple occasions. In other words, it doesn't seem like she rejected the crown.

And here's where I always start pulling at my hair due to Martin's withholding information on Rhaegar (not to mention Lyanna). If there was a romantic connection, if the rose was romantic--Rhaegar's at least a bit of an idiot (not too unbelievable for a young guy) and definitely a big jerk to his wife. If he's defending the honor of Ashara--he's being a good friend, and a big jerk to Lyanna, the Starks, and his wife--even if Elia knew, not everyone else knew. Still looks bad.

And that's not even bringing in the question of why Lyanna would consent to a romance with a married man.

I know no one is perfect in Martin land, but Rhaegar doesn't come off as the Slimeball King--at least not yet. So, I really struggle to come up with a good scenario.

A quick word on the blue rose growing from a chink in the Wall...

A chink in the Wall (shield) sounds like a weakness in armor. A weakness... in... armor. Armor is a symbol of knighthood (see D&E).

Jon Snow is no knight, but mayhaps his father was.

...a knight with a weakness.

That weakness was the blue rose. The blue rose is Lyanna, and now, that weakness fills the air with sweetness in the form of Jon. Jon is the chink in the Palestone Sword's (that is the Wall) honor/armor/tower. Arthur is the Palestone Sword of the Morning. That which caused the chink to grow is Lyanna Blue Rose.

Arthur planned on crowning Lyanna the QoLaB, but was unhorsed by his bff. Being a sucker for his bestie, Rhaegar spurned his horse past his own wife and laid the laurel on Lyanna's lap. Cue shitstorm.

Could maybe go with the bolded--again, it makes Rhaegar a good friend. At least makes him not an intentional jerk--though, if he didn't let Elia in on it beforehand, am thinking he might have been in for a very rough night. Would even work with my own feeble attempts to fit Arthur into the Bael the Bard story upthread. ETA--works much better than mine, honestly. Still, Rhaegar comes off (at very least) very short-sighted.

[wolfmaid7]

On your last thought.. exactly how many roses were in that crown?

Rhetorical of course, but a lot more than one.

Bingo!!! I think you know my theory i think.....Goes to my belief and the clues i found that deflowering had already occured.But a case could be made for it happening the first time at Harrenhal per my essay on this. as i stated take your pick for if it happened for the first time at Harrenhall .But it was a ten day tourney so lot of time to do lots of nasty things.

Could you elaborate on what you think your theory is? You think R was insulting the Starks and Elia was in on it? What would be the motivation? Sorry if I'm misunderstanding you.

I don't think he was insulting Elia,for those who don't know the legend it could be percieved that way.As i said i think she was in on it.As for what i think Rhaegar was doing with that gesture i'll leave that for the project.

Agreed, but I think the smiles would have died regardless. Rhaegar crowning not-Elia is something of a scandal.

Agreed. I'm not sure why he chose Lyanna. Was it just one reason, or a combination of things? One of the real world meanings of blue roses is, love at first sight. Was there a romantic component already? Maybe not necessarily anything physical yet but emotionally.

Rhaegar placed it in her lap. It doesn't say what happened to it after, though Ned thinks of Lyanna and roses/flowers on multiple occasions. In other words, it doesn't seem like she rejected the crown.

I suppose it's possible that Rhaegar and Lyanna had a roll in the grass at HH, maybe after he discovered she was the KotLT. The shield/maidenhead connection is interesting, and a possible nice catch.

As far as connections between Lyanna and the KotLT, I would point to Ned's dream, where her statue is wearing the blue rose crown -- linking that dream to HH -- and weeping tears of blood. Weirwoods appear to be cry tears of blood, due to their red sap.

I concur this is why i stressed the smiles dying for varied reasons,what it meant for the Starks isn't the same meaning for everyone else.

The thing with the real world meaning behind the blue rose is there are many meanings.The most prominent is that its not real,its unattainable because its not real.In addition to love at first sight,it means,manipulation,fabrication mystery etc Its alot.

We actually do know what kind of happened after it was placed in Lya's lap

“Ned remembered the moment when all the smiles died, when Prince Rhaegar Targaryen urged his horse past his own wife………….. He could see it still: a crown of winter roses, as blue as frost. Ned Stark reached out his hand to grasp the flowery crown, but beneath the pale blue petals, the thorns lay hidden….. He felt them clawing at his skin, sharp and cruel, saw the slow trickle of blood run down his fingers, and woke……-GoT, pg. 631

Though i don't think thorns were actually there they it meant something else,its possible Ned took the crown from her.I don't see why he would grasp it and just leave it there.A quick observation but all the smiles died.That may include Lya's

I think she had a roll in the hay with someone that's for sure.

I actually do believe she was TKOTLT

[Voice]

I've used the word "vulnerability" for "chink." Thought-provoking stuff to equate it with a knight's armor, Voice!

:cheers:

I'm sorry, but where do you get your Arthur and Lyanna connection? Are we reading the same book?? It just really sounds like your reaching, thats all.

No telling. There are now 50 Shades of Canon to choose from...

But, I would venture to suggest, nay, proclaim, that the secret of Jon's parentage has not yet been revealed in the course of the 5 published novels and D&E novellas. That secret has been saved for the end of the "trilogy". Thus, it has not been stated yet by the author. And, by "author" I refer exclusively to the man known as George R. R. Martin. Clearly, some disagree with my ravings.

Disclaimer: I have a pool party to get to, so my responses shall be delayed forthwith.

[LmL]

A quick word on the blue rose growing from a chink in the Wall...

A chink in the Wall (shield) sounds like a weakness in armor. A weakness... in... armor. Armor is a symbol of knighthood (see D&E).

Jon Snow is no knight, but mayhaps his father was.

...a knight with a weakness.

That weakness was the blue rose. The blue rose is Lyanna, and now, that weakness fills the air with sweetness in the form of Jon. Jon is the chink in the Palestone Sword's (that is the Wall) honor/armor/tower. Arthur is the Palestone Sword of the Morning. That which caused the chink to grow is Lyanna Blue Rose.

Arthur planned on crowning Lyanna the QoLaB, but was unhorsed by his bff. Being a sucker for his bestie, Rhaegar spurned his horse past his own wife and laid the laurel on Lyanna's lap. Cue shitstorm.

Edit:

I agree SFD. LmL has a great eye for detail, but tends to discuss his findings as if they are unequivocal and absolute, which is ironic considering how interpretive and esoteric they tend to be. That being said, the man can find a needle in a haystack like no other.

Hmm... Needle...

Voice, I can at least follow you're reasoning because you haven't attempted to decouple the blue rose from Lyanna. That is what I keep insisting is not passing the smell test. Why is that blue rose growing in the Wall? That is the big question. So, you agree that the blue rose symbolized Lyanna's child - we agree on the symbolism. I'm not sure why you threw the low blow there accusing me of being inflexible about interpreting the blue rose when we agree on the interpretation. Also, you've changed my mind on interpretation before, so I'm hardly inflexible. I would maintain that I am not inflexible, but that I simply demand a solid explanation for that rose before treating an RLJ alternate as credible. Someone has to show how it does not represent Lyanna if they don't think Lyanna was the mother.

Your case however is that she is the mother, but that Arthur is the father (potentially, of course). And the palestone pommel of his sword is working in your favor there, although that isn't the sword he really wants, of course, as he thinks to himself it's Neds sword that he really dreams of. But anyway, if Arthur Dayne is the father, then where does all his red and black, fire and blood symbolism come from? And what of the King references then?

[Voice]

But anyway, if Arthur Dayne is the father, then where does all his red and black, fire and blood symbolism come from? And what of the King references then?

Tis smoked red-herring my friend. Cooked fresh daily at all 147 locations. ;)

LOL

Sorry, to answer more seriously, Jon is still his own person. Parentage means little and less in Martin's world. It adds some flavor to Jon. Love is sweet, but it cannot change a man's nature. Jon is still a black brother, and need himself some obsidian tout suite.

And the only king hidden beneath winter, is, well, the King of Winter. The real one. :devil:

[Lady Darry]

And what of the King references then?

It is foreshadowed that Arya+Jon will happen and that he will be a king in the North. No need for Targ blood.

Is it possible that claiming R+L=J is the same as claiming Jamie and Cersei killed Jon Arryn pre ASOS?

At first you think Jon Arryn died naturally (Ned+Ashara or Ned+Wylla etc.), then when you realised he was murdered you reach for the most obvious alternative explanation (RLJ). That is that Lannisters killed Jon. They had a motive, opportunity, murder is not beneath Jamie and Cersei (just like Rhaegar according to some had a motive, opportunity and was also capable of raping/loving Lyanna...) ... there were holes in this theory (just like with RLJ) and there were clues that there was something going on with Lysa, LF, Robert (Arthur Dayne?). But the whole idea that Cersei killed Jon Arryn was still the most popular one and it made sense (RLJ). But then it turns out it was Lysa+LF. Theories that Lysa killed him on her own were known (B+A=J?) and there were also theories that Lysa killed him and LF had something to do with it, but the most popular theory was that Cersei killed him. There was also a Grand unified conspiracy theory, but when ASOS came out basically everyone was proven wrong. Ned reached a conclusion that Lannisters killed Jon, and if you would tell a character in ASOIAF that Ned is not a father, that character would reach a conclusion that R+L=J.

Murder mystery of Jon Arryn was there from the beginning, and GRRM left us a bunch of clues, but we got a revelation at the end of ASOS.

And GRRM said J parentage was complicated and Parris said that RLJ is too obvious (btw, I know this was discussed years ago, but I can’t find the final conclusion on Parris statement. Ran said she was not serious, but as far as I understood he was not there, and he only got a report).

It seems that RLJ and anti RLJ agree Lyanna is a mother. And GRRM said that D&D figured out who she was (and it seems they think it was Lyanna). But did anyone else close to GRRM claimed to figure out the whole parentage?

So yeah, is it possible that R+L=J is for the first 6 books the same as Cersei killed Jon Arryn was for the first 3 books?

[Mother of Dragons]

Wolfmaid7:

I don't think he was insulting Elia,for those who don't know the legend it could be percieved that way.As i said i think she was in on it.As for what i think Rhaegar was doing with that gesture i'll leave that for the project.

Yes, that's what I was asking, about Elia being in on a diss aimed toward the Starks with Raygun, not that she herself was insulted. I wanted to know what the motivation was behind the action, and I'm going to feel annoyed at having to wait! This is a scene that bugs me because it doesn't seem to make sense unless RL=J, but I feel like I'm missing a piece of the puzzle.

[Sly Wren]

It is foreshadowed that Arya+Jon will happen and that he will be a king in the North. No need for Targ blood.

Is it possible that claiming R+L=J is the same as claiming Jamie and Cersei killed Jon Arryn pre ASOS?

So yeah, is it possible that R+L=J is for the first 6 books the same as Cersei killed Jon Arryn was for the first 3 books?

Agree--it is definitely possible. And if Arthur is daddy, would shift the narrative from the fire imagery (potentially Targ) back to the battle for the Dawn story tied to the Starks--and Daynes. But the Daynes and Dawn wouldn't be coming out of the blue--they've been sitting there, so the shift might not be too hard . . .

For now, the tie to Rhaegar is easier to see--but you're right. So were Cersei and Jaime easier to see as villains. They threw a kid out a window. Books aren't done. RLJ could shift in book 7 to X+L=J; or more specifically, Arthur.

But I would hope that we don't get a weird monologue like the one from Lyssa as a reveal . . . Whatever the answer.