R+L=J v147

[LmL]

Tis smoked red-herring my friend. Cooked fresh daily at all 147 locations. ;)

LOL

Sorry, to answer more seriously, Jon is still his own person. Parentage means little and less in Martin's world. It adds some flavor to Jon. Love is sweet, but it cannot change a man's nature. Jon is still a black brother, and need himself some obsidian tout suite.

And the only king hidden beneath winter, is, well, the King of Winter. The real one. :devil:

There's a lot more King imagery than Kings under the snow, Ned. There's Corn. King. Jon Snow. Jon Snow Corn King. Mithras. Corn. (just kidding, he doesn't say Mithras. But we do get the "grumpkins to magic up your sword" and the pegasus reference, both of which indicate Mithras lore. (Perseus and Mithras are associated with each other.) And all of the Mithras stuff says "red dragon." "Kings and dragons again." Kings and dragons indeed - Arthur Dayne does not fit either.

Yes, I believe I have uncovered connections between the Daynes and the Asshai dragonlords, but the Dayne's have no red and black, and are not associated with dragons in anyone's minds. So, the magic sword thing could be Dayne, and comet stuff could mean Dayne, but red fire and black ice is an icy version of the Targ sigil, as you yourself pointed out to me.

[LmL]

Burning red doesn't mean that Jon is wielding a flaming sword

What else does a "sword burning red in his hand" mean then, pray tell? :dunno:

And especially given that is in the context of Jon performing the deeds of Azor Ahai and the Bloodstone Emperor both during his dream of the burning red sword...?

[J. Stargaryen]

The thing with the real world meaning behind the blue rose is there are many meanings.The most prominent is that its not real,its unattainable because its not real.In addition to love at first sight,it means,manipulation,fabrication mystery etc Its alot.

It's true that there are multiple real-world meanings for blue roses. I think mystery is certainly a prominent one at work in ASoIaF. Unattainable love? Maybe. Love at first sight? Maybe.

We actually do know what kind of happened after it was placed in Lya's lap

“Ned remembered the moment when all the smiles died, when Prince Rhaegar Targaryen urged his horse past his own wife………….. He could see it still: a crown of winter roses, as blue as frost. Ned Stark reached out his hand to grasp the flowery crown, but beneath the pale blue petals, the thorns lay hidden….. He felt them clawing at his skin, sharp and cruel, saw the slow trickle of blood run down his fingers, and woke……-GoT, pg. 631

"Ned reached out his hand..." is at the beginning of a new paragraph, so I don't think he actually took the crown out of Lyanna's lap. At least, it's not part of what he remembered. My take is that the crown symbolizes Jon Snow, and the stuff about Ned grasping it, etc. symbolizes him taking Jon Snow and the promise to Lyanna. The thorns represent the consequences for those actions. All of that would seem to mesh pretty well with what we think we know about RLJ.

Though i don't think thorns were actually there they it meant something else,its possible Ned took the crown from her.I don't see why he would grasp it and just leave it there.A quick observation but all the smiles died.That may include Lya's

I'm sure Lyanna's smile died as well. No matter what version of events you believe, it had to be mighty awkward for her to receive the crown in front of everyone.

---

I think WP mentioned something about the number of roses on the crown. Well, I'm not sure what they were getting at, but I would consider what a crown of winter roses could possibly symbolize. Let's say winter roses (more or less) represent Stark girls. What do crowns represent? There could be a few different things, but royalty is probably the one that first comes to mind. Well, Rhaegar was royalty, and Lyanna was a daughter of House Stark. So, the crown of winter roses could be interpreted as a combination of those two, just like Jon Snow. And just like the crown of winter roses, Rhaegar would have placed Jon Snow in his mother's lap. Or thereabouts.

"Ned remembered the moment when all the smiles died, when Prince Rhaegar Targaryen urged his horse past his own wife, the Dornish princess Elia Martell, to lay the queen of beauty’s laurel in Lyanna’s lap. He could see it still: a crown of winter roses, blue as frost."

Blue as frost, eh? Kind of like snow Snow, I think.

[Lady Darry]

Agree--it is definitely possible. And if Arthur is daddy, would shift the narrative from the fire imagery (potentially Targ) back to the battle for the Dawn story tied to the Starks--and Daynes. But the Daynes and Dawn wouldn't be coming out of the blue--they've been sitting there, so the shift might not be too hard . . .

For now, the tie to Rhaegar is easier to see--but you're right. So were Cersei and Jaime easier to see as villains. They threw a kid out a window. Books aren't done. RLJ could shift in book 7 to X+L=J; or more specifically, Arthur.

But I would hope that we don't get a weird monologue like the one from Lyssa as a reveal . . . Whatever the answer.

yes, Lysa gave us a weird monologue. And that means GRRM is totally capable of doing the same with J parentage. GRRM gave as clues that Cersei murdered Jon Arryn, everyone was sold on this theory. I checked the old forums and it was considered a fact.

Maybe HR will also give us a weird monologue. And then Jon will claim Dawn, he will defeat the Others, he will marry Arya, and he will become King in the North.

I was a firm believer in RLJ, but he tricked us with Jon Arryn. Maybe he did the same with Jon Snow...

[Alia of the knife]

Wow, lots of stuff here.

If it was found that Brandon dishonored Ashara, Rhaegar or the Daynes, as in AD's older brother would openly call the Starks out and be damned to Brandons betrothed.

Someone would marry Ashara, be it Ned or Brandon himself.

I mean LF called Brandon out.

Again, I go back to The story of Jorahs tourney. When I first read that, I knew why Rhaegar was determined to win and crown Lyanna.

And if you look at Arya, I wouldn't be surprised if Lyannas smile died too, and she actually didn't take it, and it was Rhaegar who saved the crown himself, giving it to her later as her marriage garland at the TOJ.

[J. Stargaryen]

Is it possible that claiming R+L=J is the same as claiming Jamie and Cersei killed Jon Arryn pre ASOS?

Not exactly, since no one in the text has come out and said... R+L=J. "The Lannisters murdered Jon Arryn" was stated in the text, and is a classic red herring. RLJ is not the same thing.

[WeaselPie]

What else does a "sword burning red in his hand" mean then, pray tell? :dunno:

And especially given that is in the context of Jon performing the deeds of Azor Ahai and the Bloodstone Emperor both during his dream of the burning red sword...?

Both iterations of Ice v2 - Widow's Wail and Oathkeeper - are now red.

EtA This one was thicker and heavier, a half-inch wider and three inches longer, but they shared the same fine clean lines and the same distinctive color, the ripples of blood and night

[Voice]

It is foreshadowed that Arya+Jon will happen and that he will be a king in the North. No need for Targ blood.

Is it possible that claiming R+L=J is the same as claiming Jamie and Cersei killed Jon Arryn pre ASOS?

At first you think Jon Arryn died naturally (Ned+Ashara or Ned+Wylla etc.), then when you realised he was murdered you reach for the most obvious alternative explanation (RLJ). That is that Lannisters killed Jon. They had a motive, opportunity, murder is not beneath Jamie and Cersei (just like Rhaegar according to some had a motive, opportunity and was also capable of raping/loving Lyanna...) ... there were holes in this theory (just like with RLJ) and there were clues that there was something going on with Lysa, LF, Robert (Arthur Dayne?). But the whole idea that Cersei killed Jon Arryn was still the most popular one and it made sense (RLJ). But then it turns out it was Lysa+LF. Theories that Lysa killed him on her own were known (B+A=J?) and there were also theories that Lysa killed him and LF had something to do with it, but the most popular theory was that Cersei killed him. There was also a Grand unified conspiracy theory, but when ASOS came out basically everyone was proven wrong. Ned reached a conclusion that Lannisters killed Jon, and if you would tell a character in ASOIAF that Ned is not a father, that character would reach a conclusion that R+L=J.

Murder mystery of Jon Arryn was there from the beginning, and GRRM left us a bunch of clues, but we got a revelation at the end of ASOS.

And GRRM said J parentage was complicated and Parris said that RLJ is too obvious (btw, I know this was discussed years ago, but I cant find the final conclusion on Parris statement. Ran said she was not serious, but as far as I understood he was not there, and he only got a report).

It seems that RLJ and anti RLJ agree Lyanna is a mother. And GRRM said that D&D figured out who she was (and it seems they think it was Lyanna). But did anyone else close to GRRM claimed to figure out the whole parentage?

So yeah, is it possible that R+L=J is for the first 6 books the same as Cersei killed Jon Arryn was for the first 3 books?

Yup

[aDanceWithFlagons]

Interesting quote regarding the laughing like a madman. Joffrey wasn't the real king, Stannis is seeing as Joffrey was not Robert's heir or even had any relation to Robert. That would seem to mean that the parallel between Jon and Joffrey is that neither are the real king.

Which fits with the fact that as the son of disposed royalty, Jon is not royalty.

So you're saying that they are both bastards? I believe that's what you meant, and that's what I get from that exchange.

[Sly Wren]

yes, Lysa gave us a weird monologue. And that means GRRM is totally capable of doing the same with J parentage. GRRM gave as clues that Cersei murdered Jon Arryn, everyone was sold on this theory. I checked the old forums and it was considered a fact.

Maybe HR will also give us a weird monologue. And then Jon will claim Dawn, he will defeat the Others, he will marry Arya, and he will become King in the North.

I was a firm believer in RLJ, but he tricked us with Jon Arryn. Maybe he did the same with Jon Snow...

HA! Now have Howland in my head, monologuing in symbols like Jojen, while Jon tries to figure out what the hell he actually means.

If there is to a reveal-by-monolgue, I'd kinda prefer Benjen--at least his monologue would be succinct.

And fully agree on the Jon Arryn misdirect. It fooled me--not too proud to admit. That being said, on this point I agree with LmL--that red and black imagery is there. Could be a red herring. Could be something else. Could be what it currently seems to be--Jon is Rhaegar's northern baby boy. Not sure. Books aren't done. But agree Arthur as father isn't off the table. Not yet, anyway.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

It is foreshadowed that Arya+Jon will happen and that he will be a king in the North. No need for Targ blood.

Is it possible that claiming R+L=J is the same as claiming Jamie and Cersei killed Jon Arryn pre ASOS?

At first you think Jon Arryn died naturally (Ned+Ashara or Ned+Wylla etc.), then when you realised he was murdered you reach for the most obvious alternative explanation (RLJ). That is that Lannisters killed Jon. They had a motive, opportunity, murder is not beneath Jamie and Cersei (just like Rhaegar according to some had a motive, opportunity and was also capable of raping/loving Lyanna...) ... there were holes in this theory (just like with RLJ) and there were clues that there was something going on with Lysa, LF, Robert (Arthur Dayne?). But the whole idea that Cersei killed Jon Arryn was still the most popular one and it made sense (RLJ). But then it turns out it was Lysa+LF. Theories that Lysa killed him on her own were known (B+A=J?) and there were also theories that Lysa killed him and LF had something to do with it, but the most popular theory was that Cersei killed him. There was also a Grand unified conspiracy theory, but when ASOS came out basically everyone was proven wrong. Ned reached a conclusion that Lannisters killed Jon, and if you would tell a character in ASOIAF that Ned is not a father, that character would reach a conclusion that R+L=J.

Murder mystery of Jon Arryn was there from the beginning, and GRRM left us a bunch of clues, but we got a revelation at the end of ASOS.

And GRRM said J parentage was complicated and Parris said that RLJ is too obvious (btw, I know this was discussed years ago, but I cant find the final conclusion on Parris statement. Ran said she was not serious, but as far as I understood he was not there, and he only got a report).

It seems that RLJ and anti RLJ agree Lyanna is a mother. And GRRM said that D&D figured out who she was (and it seems they think it was Lyanna). But did anyone else close to GRRM claimed to figure out the whole parentage?

So yeah, is it possible that R+L=J is for the first 6 books the same as Cersei killed Jon Arryn was for the first 3 books?

Good show! :cheers:

[WeaselPie]

HA! Now have Howland in my head, monologuing in symbols like Jojen while Jon tries to figure out what the hell he actually means.

If there is to a reveal-by-monolgue, I'd kinda prefer Benjen--at least his monologue would be succinct.

And fully agree on the Jon Arryn misdirect. It fooled me--not too proud to admit. That being said, on this point I agree with LmL--that red and black imagery is there. Could be a red herring. Could be something else. Could be what it currently seems to be--Jon is Rhaegar's northern baby boy. Not sure. Books aren't done. But agree Arthur as father isn't off the table. Not yet, anyway.

neither red nor black are limited to Targs. Red for the weirwood leaves Or even the eyes of Ghost or some of the CotF. Black for the night's watch. Even red and black combined in the form of the two swords made from Ice v2 (mentioned above).

[Mother of Dragons]

Wow, lots of stuff here.

If it was found that Brandon dishonored Ashara, Rhaegar or the Daynes, as in AD's older brother would openly call the Starks out and be damned to Brandons betrothed.

Someone would marry Ashara, be it Ned or Brandon himself.

I mean LF called Brandon out.

Again, I go back to The story of Jorahs tourney. When I first read that, I knew why Rhaegar was determined to win and crown Lyanna.

And if you look at Arya, I wouldn't be surprised if Lyannas smile died too, and she actually didn't take it, and it was Rhaegar who saved the crown himself, giving it to her later as her marriage garland at the TOJ.

Are you saying that Rhaegar was calling out the Starks because Ashara was dishonored by crowning Lyanna? I don't remember much about Jorah's tourney except that he was infatuated with his future bride and wanted to win for her. Did you mean that Rhaegar fell in love with Lyanna at the tourney? I'm curious because even among RLJ, it seems like the consensus was that Rhaegar still respected Elia. I'd like to learn more about what you meant about both things if you don't mind explaining them to me.

[Lady Darry]

Not exactly, since no one in the text has come out and said... R+L=J. "The Lannisters murdered Jon Arryn" was stated in the text, and is a classic red herring. RLJ is not the same thing.

Yes, but no one in the text researches J parentage. We are doing this and Ned researched Jon Arryn mystery murder. First we thought that Ned+Wylla/Ashara. And Ned first thought that Jon Arryn died naturally/illness. But then we found out Ned is not a father. And then Ned found out there is more to the whole Jon Arryn thing. We read a bunch of clues in text about RLJ. And Ned was lead to believe that Lannisters killed Jon Arryn. It makes sense to us that R+L=J. It made sense to Ned that Lannisters killed Jon Arryn. And why not? We were lead to believe that R+L=J, and Ned was lead to believe Cersei killed JA. But it only makes sense if you research. A peasant in KL thinks Jon Arryn died naturally. And a casual reader thinks that N+A=J. But then it turns out it was Lysa+LF. And Lysa gave us a weird monologue about it that explained the whole thing (HR).

[aDanceWithFlagons]

Not exactly, since no one in the text has come out and said... R+L=J. "The Lannisters murdered Jon Arryn" was stated in the text, and is a classic red herring. RLJ is not the same thing.

It was a mystery. Now, I'm not saying it is the same as RLJ, but Robert did say that Rhaegar raped Lyanna. In the first book, in the beginning of the Song.

[WeaselPie]

HA! Now have Howland in my head, monologuing in symbols like Jojen, while Jon tries to figure out what the hell he actually means.

If there is to a reveal-by-monolgue, I'd kinda prefer Benjen--at least his monologue would be succinct.

And fully agree on the Jon Arryn misdirect. It fooled me--not too proud to admit. That being said, on this point I agree with LmL--that red and black imagery is there. Could be a red herring. Could be something else. Could be what it currently seems to be--Jon is Rhaegar's northern baby boy. Not sure. Books aren't done. But agree Arthur as father isn't off the table. Not yet, anyway.

Oh and Mance's cloak.

[LmL]

Both iterations of Ice v2 - Widow's Wail and Oathkeeper - are now red.

EtA This one was thicker and heavier, a half-inch wider and three inches longer, but they shared the same fine clean lines and the same distinctive color, the ripples of blood and night

Indeed, and I expect them catch fire, with black and red flame.

But in Jon's dream., the sword is burning red. It's not just red, or "fire-red," or "blood-red," but "burning red." Which means it was on fire. A sword of red fire, just like Azor Ahai's was said to be. And Jon kills his love with it, just as Azor Ahai did.

Edit: I expect Oathkeeper to take fire at some point when the right people are killed or whatever. Not sure if we will see Widow's Wail again.

[Mother of Dragons]

So you're saying that they are both bastards? I believe that's what you meant, and that's what I get from that exchange.

I understood this to mean the same thing. I think that no matter who Jon's parents are, he'll still be a bastard.

[J. Stargaryen]

Yes, but no one in the text researches J parentage. We are doing this and Ned researched Jon Arryn mystery murder. First we thought that Ned+Wylla/Ashara. And Ned first thought that Jon Arryn died naturally/illness. But then we found out Ned is not a father. And then Ned found out there is more to the whole Jon Arryn thing. We read a bunch of clues in text about RLJ. And Ned was lead to believe that Lannisters killed Jon Arryn. It makes sense to us that R+L=J. It made sense to Ned that Lannisters killed Jon Arryn. And why not? We were lead to believe that R+L=J, and Ned was lead to believe Cersei killed JA. But it only makes sense if you research. A peasant in KL thinks Jon Arryn died naturally. And a casual reader thinks that N+A=J. But then it turns out it was Lysa+LF. And Lysa gave us a weird monologue about it that explained the whole thing (HR).

I see what you're saying, but I'm not sure GRRM writes in such a meta fashion, you know? Then again, if RLJ isn't true, I do expect that someone in universe will (incorrectly) figure it out and discuss it. In which case it would become like the "Lannisters killed Jon Arryn" red herring.

It was a mystery. Now, I'm not saying it is the same as RLJ, but Robert did say that Rhaegar raped Lyanna. In the first book, in the beginning of the Song.

Sure, but it's not the same thing is all I was saying. "The Lannisters killed Jon Arryn" is a classic red herring. If RLJ is some sort of red herring, it's a different kind. At least so far.

[WeaselPie]

Indeed, and I expect them catch fire, with black and red flame.

But in Jon's dream., the sword is burning red. It's not just red, or "fire-red," or "blood-red," but "burning red." Which means it was on fire. A sword of red fire, just like Azor Ahai's was said to be. And Jon kills his love with it, just as Azor Ahai did.

I don't disagree with this but don't equate it with the OP of this thread.