R+L=J v147

[Lord Varys]

If the MUSH is any indication then the Targaryens don't only have Dayne and Blackwood blood, but also Stark blood. Cregan Stark's daughter by Black Aly Blackwood, Marian/Mariah Stark, is betrothed to one Seth Blackwood, the son and heir of Benjicot Blackwood (and also the brother of Melissa Blackwood). If this Seth turns out to be the grandfather of Betha Blackwood, then Egg's children by her all had a drop of Stark blood.

[WeaselPie]

If the MUSH is any indication then the Targaryens don't only have Dayne and Blackwood blood, but also Stark blood. Cregan Stark's daughter by Black Aly Blackwood, Marian/Mariah Stark, is betrothed to one Seth Blackwood, the son and heir of Benjicot Blackwood (and also the brother of Melissa Blackwood). If this Seth turns out to be the grandfather of Betha Blackwood, then Egg's children by her all had a drop of Stark blood.

whoa whoa... MUSH is not an accepted source of canon (though the thought is interesting!)

Ran, on 17 Dec 2014 - 06:25 AM, said:

As I've said elsewhere, stuff from the MUSH should not be assumed to be canon.

[Lord Varys]

Unless it is. There is stuff in there that is canon. But a Stark-Blackwood match in the wake of Cregan-Black Aly match wouldn't be surprising at all. And I'm nor sure Ran and Linda would place Melissa Blackwood at a point in the Blackwood family tree without knowledge from George (which they could have considering how flashed out the background of the reign of Aegon the Unworthy already is).

[WeaselPie]

Unless it is. There is stuff in there that is canon. But a Stark-Blackwood match in the wake of Cregan-Black Aly match wouldn't be surprising at all. And I'm nor sure Ran and Linda would place Melissa Blackwood at a point in the Blackwood family tree without knowledge from George (which they could have considering how flashed out the background of the reign of Aegon the Unworthy already is).

well, it is an interesting notion.

But it doesn't it remove something from the "specialness" of Jon (alleged) RL parentage?

[Bael's Bastard]

Jon is still the only known direct product of a Targ and Stark. I would expect the Blackwoods to have Stark ancestry. For me it was a pretty huge reveal that Egg's wife was a Blackwood, in part because of what I think is a good chance the Blackwoods have some Stark ancestry. But I don't follow or consider the information in MUSH.

[Lord Varys]

I'm not sure that the match in itself is 'special'. He is a skinchanger who may also be able to become a dragonrider. Bloodraven effectively is everything Jon Snow could become - the sole exception being the fact that he was born to early to become a dragonrider.

Unless we assume that the Stark blood has a special quality which has never been hinted at up until now. But I don't really do that.

[Ygrain]

Brienne will obviously be the next SOTM ;)

Unlike D-bagarkstar, she would be worthy :-)

[Meera of Tarth]

Why would Jon be raised his first months of life in Dorne if he is not A Dayne? According to Edric dayne, if he says the truth of course.... and why after Ned killed his father in combat? Did they owe him something? because Ned and Ashara may have had something? That is what feels odd to me.

I am currently reading the first two books, because I started with ASOS, AFFC, ADWD, and because of this forum, I'm pretty convinced that RLJ is the most logical theory, but I want to read it. < I have only read the House of the Undying chapter>

Anyway, I am not an expert on this subject, you surely know a lot more than I do, of course, because you have read the clues in the first books, but I think there is a slight possibility that Jon is actually a Dayne.

and sometimes people say that Lyanna felt in love with him because she loved his music, etc, and that might be true, but I remember having read in ADWD in a Barristan's chapter that all the women cried while listening to his music.

Anyway, I think your analysis are impressive and correct me please if I am wrong with something because as i have said, I am not an expert. :)

[Alia of the knife]

Perhaps, the first time in his life, something overcame his senseof duty. That happenseven to the most dutiful ones.

And real life and truth are stranger than fiction, so totally agree with this.

[Jon Weirgaryen]

Why would Jon be raised his first months of life in Dorne if he is not A Dayne? According to Edric Dayne

Haven't looked it up again just now, so from memory: Ned Dayne said that he and Jon Snow were weaned by the same Wylla, but not that Jon was weaned in Dorne. Information from the first book looks like Jon was pretty much speeded up to Winterfell. Have fun reading!

[IceFire125]

Why would Jon be raised his first months of life in Dorne if he is not A Dayne? According to Edric dayne, if he says the truth of course.... and why after Ned killed his father in combat? Did they owe him something? because Ned and Ashara may have had something? That is what feels odd to me.

I am currently reading the first two books, because I started with ASOS, AFFC, ADWD, and because of this forum, I'm pretty convinced that RLJ is the most logical theory, but I want to read it. < I have only read the House of the Undying chapter>

Anyway, I am not an expert on this subject, you surely know a lot more than I do, of course, because you have read the clues in the first books, but I think there is a slight possibility that Jon is actually a Dayne.

and sometimes people say that Lyanna felt in love with him because she loved his music, etc, and that might be true, but I remember having read in ADWD in a Barristan's chapter that all the women cried while listening to his music.

Anyway, I think your analysis are impressive and correct me please if I am wrong with something because as i have said, I am not an expert. :)

You many not be an expert, but you're a reader.

Ask yourselves why the 3 Kingsguard are at the tower of joy when Ned arrived? If Arthur and Lyanna were an item, ask yourself what does he have on Lord Commander Hightower to have him bound to the tower of joy, especially when the King is in danger or after the sack of Kinglanding, did he not go to Viserys at Dragonstone?

If Ned and Ashara is Jon's true parents, you have to asked yourself the same question about why he kept the knowledge of her a secret? Jon would welcome in keeping his knowledge of his Mother a secret, to not dishonor, Ashara. All he wanted to know was, who was she?

Read Jon's chapters on his affinity with Fire and Ice, Martin gave a lot of clues of Jon's affinity (descriptive, imagery) of both.

[Meera of Tarth]

Haven't looked it up again just now, so from memory: Ned Dayne said that he and Jon Snow were weaned by the same Wylla, but not that Jon was weaned in Dorne. Information from the first book looks like Jon was pretty much speeded up to Winterfell. Have fun reading!

thanks! Yes, maybe reading I will understand things better.....

[Kingmonkey]

My main problem with RLJ is that I don’t understand what is the point of RLJ. With all the clues about Daynes and Starks being connected to the first long night, with all the Ice and Others imaginary around Jon, with the prospect of owning this famous sword…it just seems that Jon would profit more from Dayne heritage.

One way to look at it is that if Dayne and Stark heritage is so connected, what would Dayne blood bring to the table? Targ blood is something new. Valyrian steel appears to have anti-Other properties. Does Dawn? We don't know, but given the similarity between Dawn and the bones of Others, it may be that Dawn is an Other-weapon in the way that Valyrian Steel is a dragon-weapon. Valyrian steel is rumoured to be tempered with Valyrian blood-magic. Wouldn't it make some sense if Jon is strengthened by being tempered with Valyrian blood?

About dragonbone and Valyrian steel-GRRM said that Valyrian steel is not made of dragonbone.

Yeah, that's a difficulty. It seems rather odd though. The description of Dragonbone comes early in the books where GRRM is loading the reader with little hints of relevant material, and it feels like it must serve a purpose as it's something he returns to early on with the descriptions of the dragon skulls.

Perhaps VS doesn't contain dragonbone, but is made to emulate the makeup of dragonbone.

Perhaps as LML suggests, there's something wrong with the SSM -- for example, actual Q: While we're talking about Valyria, could you tell us if they used Dragonbone in making VS? A: No.

Perhaps GRRM was being sneaky and hiding some even bigger twist, like A: No (it's the other way around, they used VS in making Dragonbone).

[Meera of Tarth]

yes, I have read it again now and Ned says that Wylla worked for their house and that he weaned both of them.

So technically it is possible that Ned asked Wylla for help and that she weaned him, but not not in Dorne, despite of the fact that she presumably lived in Starfall at that time, and then, the "Jon is a Dayne possibility" would be even less likely.

It is also possible that Jon was raised in Dorne, at the same time when Ned brought back Dawn to the Dayne's, because Wylla worked for them, but there is no text evidence for that, as you have pointed out. The point is that we don't know where Wylla was....that is a mystery on its own. If she was in Dorne, then, the possibility of Arthur being the father is the most logical option....of course ignoring all the other evidences that say that he can't be that I'll soon discover :)

I will read carefully regarding the possible theories, and I know I will see more RLJ evidences, as well as possible ice and fire references for Jon Snow (I haven't noticed them while reading ASOS, AFFC and ADWD), and then I will have more info to discuss ;)

[Kingmonkey]

This is a major question I am wrestling with. All of the V steel swords have LB / comet kill moon imagery, both in their names and in their lore, led by Neds sword which symbolizes the comet and Lightbringer both - and it may in fact be the original Lightbringer. I know, Cat thinks it's from Valyria - but that's the only source for that. Anyway, moving right along, yes, I suspect Dawn (Ice) has dragon killing power, absolutely. My whole idea about the swords is that AAs Lightbringer was used to fight Others, and left at Winterfell where fire people could not reach it, but where it could be used if the Others come again. Dawn, the dragon killer, stays in the south where the fire people invaded last time. Makes sense to me - ice sword to check fire, and vise versa.

I do find the imagery involved here satisfying, but not entirely convincing. Cat's knowledge is the only source we have for Ned's Ice being VS, but that's more than the sources we have for it not. Mott's VS-reforging spells do seem to work on it, and it has the look of VS. Of course it might be that it's something older made by the same process.

There's also the issue that if Ned's Ice is LB, we have to explain how it made its way half way around the world.

The red comes from Tobho's attempts to color the steel. He tried for Lannister Crimson and every time, the color would darken, as if the blade drank the sunlight from it. That's not to rule out the idea that Neds blood on the blade has some magical ramification by any means... But the coloring comes from Tobho's spells:

I'm not convinced that's true. He was trying to colour the metal red, but not that red -- and there is something in that passage to suggest that the red is about Ned, not Lannister crimson:

“How did you get this patterning? I’ve never seen anything like it.”

"Nor I, my lord,” said the armorer. “I confess, these colors were not what I intended, and I do not know that I could duplicate them. Your lord father had asked for the crimson of your House, and it was that color I set out to infuse into the metal. But Valyrian steel is stubborn. These old swords remember, it is said, and they do not change easily.

First bold: Mott has never seen anything like this before. His spells (if spells indeed should be considered -- there's a long tradition of the secrets of metalworking being believed magical) are not working in the way he expects them to. The blade seems to be rejecting his intent.

Second bold: What else remembers? The North.

[Jon Weirgaryen]

It is also possible that Jon was raised in Dorne

Highly unlikely. Because Jon and Robb are said to be of an age, both were born around the time of the Battle of the Trident/sack of King's Landing (more or less). And...

Ned brought his bastard home with him, and called him "son" for all the north to see. When the wars were over at last, and Catelyn rode to Winterfell, Jon and his wet nurse had already taken up residence.

near the end of AGoT chapter 06 Catelyn II

eta (unrelated to the above):

First bold: Mott has never seen anything like this before. His spells (if spells indeed should be considered -- there's a long tradition of the secrets of metalworking being believed magical) are not working in the way he expects them to. The blade seems to be rejecting his intent.

Second bold: What else remembers? The North.

I felt a shiver when I read that "second bolded". Very nice find indeed.

[Kingmonkey]

It is also possible that Jon was raised in Dorne, at the same time when Ned brought back Dawn to the Dayne's, because Wylla worked for them, but there is no text evidence for that, as you have pointed out. The point is that we don't know where Wylla was....that is a mystery on its own. If she was in Dorne, then, the possibility of Arthur being the father is the most logical option....of course ignoring all the other evidences that say that he can't be that I'll soon discover :)

I think it's clear that Wylla was from Starfall. She was there to nurse Edric later, and Wylla is a Dornish name (see House Wyl and Wylla of Wyl). I don't see this points to Arthur in any way though.

Whoever Jon's father was, his mother was dead, and newborns need milk. Ned needed to find a wetnurse somewhere, and he was at Starfall to return Dawn (and possibly other reasons). The father could have come from anywhere, but the wetnurse would inevitably be local.

[Bael's Bastard]

There is a Wylla Manderly as well, so we don't know it is Dornish, and we don't know if Wylla originated in Dorne or when she began to serve the Daynes.

[stateofdissipation]

There is a Wylla Manderly as well, so we don't know it is Dornish, and we don't know if Wylla originated in Dorne or when she began to serve the Daynes.

Thank you...

Wylla served at Starfall since before three years after Jon was born.

Wylla is mentioned as;

Edric's wet nurse by Edric

Jon's mother by Edric

A servant at Starfall since before Edric was born by Edric

Jon's mother by Eddard Stark

That is it...

[spoon89]

I think it's clear that Wylla was from Starfall. She was there to nurse Edric later, and Wylla is a Dornish name (see House Wyl and Wylla of Wyl). I don't see this points to Arthur in any way though.

Whoever Jon's father was, his mother was dead, and newborns need milk. Ned needed to find a wetnurse somewhere, and he was at Starfall to return Dawn (and possibly other reasons). The father could have come from anywhere, but the wetnurse would inevitably be local.

She could also be one of the small folk that was at the Tower of Joy. In Ned's fever dream he mentions the fight and the participants and Lyanna, but you would not expect a possibly pregnant Lady to keep a secluded household running by herself and don't think the Kingsguard would do so either. Note that it is a fever dream and one of the driving premises of the series is imperfect observertion by PoV character.

It's also a long distance from the location of the ToJ to Starfall (which are slightly further apart than Deepwood Monte and Winterfell) through rough terrain, not an easy or short trip and would require wetnursing for a infant.

There is a Wylla Manderly as well, so we don't know it is Dornish, and we don't know if Wylla originated in Dorne or when she began to serve the Daynes.

I think Wylla AND her speech are foreshadowing of the reappearence of Wylla as a possible supporting witness to what actually occured at the ToJ, once Howland Reed shows up.