Jump to content

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

SFDanny

R+L=J v147

Recommended Posts

Robert/Ned:



We have to keep in mind that Ned actually claims that Robert would never harm him or his (i.e. his children and extended kin). If he says that he cannot possibly believe that Robert would kill Jon Snow who would be Ned's nephew, and Lyanna's son as well as Rhaegar's. Does anybody actually believe Robert would have killed Lyanna's son - the only thing left of her after his death had he been the guy/with Ned at the tower? I don't think so. Elia, Rhaenys, and Aegon were nothing to Robert, just as Viserys and Daenerys - but Lyanna was the woman he loved, and Ned was his best friend and most important supporter throughout the war.



Ned is also surprised about Robert's ruthless attitude towards the Targaryens-in-exile - if he had secretly feared Robert would killed Jon should he ever find out the truth about him he would most likely also expected that Robert wouldn't show any mercy towards them. Yet that's exactly what Ned expects of Robert.



Considering that Eddard Stark was the Lord of Winterfell and Warden of the North, married to Hoster Tully's eldest daughter, and a good friend of Jon Arryn the very nature of the rebel alliance that brought down the Targaryens would have made it completely impossible for Robert to actually threaten Jon's life should he have found it out. Ned would never have handed the boy over to Robert - just as Jon Arryn didn't deliver Robert and Ned to Aerys. If Robert had pushed Ned in that matter he'd have destroyed his whole power base in a heart beat. The Tullys and Arryns wouldn't have backed Robert in a war against the North, and would have perhaps fought against him. That would leave the Lannisters and possibly the Tyrells, to be sure, but we know how difficult it would be actually try to attack or conquer the North. Not to mention that Robert would have to be completely mad to actually go to war over this - Jon Snow could never become a threat to him. The boy looks like a Stark, not a Targaryen. He was raised as a bastard, and if the truth about his heritage came out this could always be discarded as a foul rumor - only very few people would go to war in the name of a boy who may be nothing but Ned Stark's bastard.



SFDanny,



since we don't know on which side Ashara was during the war it is hardly appropriate for us to assume Ned having an affair with her is 'treason'. Not to mention that Robert wasn't king by then so fraternizing with her wouldn't be legally 'treason' even if she was not one of the rebels. It could very well be that Ned and Ashara were in love and on different sides in the war but it may also be Ashara and the Daynes in general (Ser Arthur excluded, of course) abandoned the banner of House Targaryen during the war. Nothing suggests that any Daynes were among the spearmen Doran sent to the Trident.


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So, even assuming RLJ, we still have no f*cking idea what will happen to Jon.

:agree: :agree: :agree:

Not to mention all those intriguing details how the story played out, how it will be revealed...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Do you have any support for a love affair with Ashara being treason, or that Robert would consider it as such? Because I think this is reaching, and faaaar. None of those mentioning the supposed affair think about it in terms of treason.

Indeed - out of character for Ned. Therefore, not an option

Sorry but I definitely wouldn't call the above reasonable. The Wylla part is completely implausible, and Ashara only slightly less so.

Ashara was handmaiden to Princess Elia, and sister to Prince Rhaegar's closest friend and companion. That she is in almost certainly a well known loyalist to the Targaryen cause is not really a question. When a rebel general has secret meetings with such a person would be treasonous if the secret is kept from Robert, Jon, and Hoster. It is a crime to lie to one's king and by telling Robert that Wylla is Jon's mother instead of the truth Ned commits this crime. It also raises the question of why he lies if there is no treasonous intent. For Ned to keep all of this secret is highly reasonable. Which is the standard I think we need to apply here, I think.

With Ned's character, I think I've made it clear this isn't my read of his character, but Martin has also made it clear that none of his characters are just one way and not made up of shades of grey. I don't think we can rule out Ned having darker sides to his character than we have seen.

By now, Ygrain, I think you know what I think about R+L=J. I haven't exactly made a secret of my support of this theory since the second thread on the topic. I just think ruling out alternatives with the wave of a hand gives those of us do support the theory a bad rep. Discuss the evidence and say why you think it means what you believe. That's all I ask. Add a little respect for other's views and we might actually learn new things from each other.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Robert/Ned:

We have to keep in mind that Ned actually claims that Robert would never harm him or his (i.e. his children and extended kin). If he says that he cannot possibly believe that Robert would kill Jon Snow who would be Ned's nephew, and Lyanna's son as well as Rhaegar's. Does anybody actually believe Robert would have killed Lyanna's son - the only thing left of her after his death had he been the guy/with Ned at the tower? I don't think so. Elia, Rhaenys, and Aegon were nothing to Robert, just as Viserys and Daenerys - but Lyanna was the woman he loved, and Ned was his best friend and most important supporter throughout the war.

Ned is also surprised about Robert's ruthless attitude towards the Targaryens-in-exile - if he had secretly feared Robert would killed Jon should he ever find out the truth about him he would most likely also expected that Robert wouldn't show any mercy towards them. Yet that's exactly what Ned expects of Robert.

Considering that Eddard Stark was the Lord of Winterfell and Warden of the North, married to Hoster Tully's eldest daughter, and a good friend of Jon Arryn the very nature of the rebel alliance that brought down the Targaryens would have made it completely impossible for Robert to actually threaten Jon's life should he have found it out. Ned would never have handed the boy over to Robert - just as Jon Arryn didn't deliver Robert and Ned to Aerys. If Robert had pushed Ned in that matter he'd have destroyed his whole power base in a heart beat. The Tullys and Arryns wouldn't have backed Robert in a war against the North, and would have perhaps fought against him. That would leave the Lannisters and possibly the Tyrells, to be sure, but we know how difficult it would be actually try to attack or conquer the North. Not to mention that Robert would have to be completely mad to actually go to war over this - Jon Snow could never become a threat to him. The boy looks like a Stark, not a Targaryen. He was raised as a bastard, and if the truth about his heritage came out this could always be discarded as a foul rumor - only very few people would go to war in the name of a boy who may be nothing but Ned Stark's bastard.

SFDanny,

since we don't know on which side Ashara was during the war it is hardly appropriate for us to assume Ned having an affair with her is 'treason'. Not to mention that Robert wasn't king by then so fraternizing with her wouldn't be legally 'treason' even if she was not one of the rebels. It could very well be that Ned and Ashara were in love and on different sides in the war but it may also be Ashara and the Daynes in general (Ser Arthur excluded, of course) abandoned the banner of House Targaryen during the war. Nothing suggests that any Daynes were among the spearmen Doran sent to the Trident.

I for one don't think so....If i were to believe Rhaegar is Jon's father at the end of the day him just being part Lyanna and Ned's nephew would be enough. Plus,killing children is not Robert's style.No matter how angry he would have been to paraphrase Ned-Robert is no Tywin Lannister to kill babies- Robert didn't even have it in him to kill Lady when Ned told him to do it,seeing as he passed judgement.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Plus,killing children is not Robert's style.No matter how angry he would have been to paraphrase Ned-Robert is no Tywin Lannister to kill babies- Robert didn't even have it in him to kill Lady when Ned told him to do it,seeing as he passed judgement.

No, Robert uses a headsman. Killing children is not his stile, but having them killed - see Dany - is his style. An not minding them being killed, as in Lady as you brought it up.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No, Robert uses a headsman. Killing children is not his stile, but having them killed - see Dany - is his style. An not minding them being killed, as in Lady as you brought it up.

Its not the same though.

Dany and especially Viserys were threats atleast in Robert's mind to his reign.

Lady was to placate Cersie's nagging.

Others made the choice for Robert so he could hide behind it in a sense.He blamed Cersie and as you brought up with Dany he had to rely on yes men council to make that choice.

If Jon was Rheagar's he was no threat.The Targs were essentially done for,he is king and Jon would have most likely been left to Ned.This isn't a case of him being a Dragonseed.It's Lyanna's baby and his best friend's nephew------He is of her blood,Robert wouldn't have killed Jon.There's just noway.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
If Jon was Rheagar's he was no threat.The Targs were essentially done for,he is king and Jon would have most likely been left to Ned.This isn't a case of him being a Dragonseed.It's Lyanna's baby and his best friend's nephew------He is of her blood,Robert wouldn't have killed Jon.There's just noway.

I differ. Maybe no threat if Robert was sober. Maybe. If he ever was. You get my meaning?

Still it was not really a choice, you don't chance the life of your kin if you can help it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ashara was handmaiden to Princess Elia, and sister to Prince Rhaegar's closest friend and companion. That she is in almost certainly a well known loyalist to the Targaryen cause is not really a question. When a rebel general has secret meetings with such a person would be treasonous if the secret is kept from Robert, Jon, and Hoster. It is a crime to lie to one's king and by telling Robert that Wylla is Jon's mother instead of the truth Ned commits this crime. It also raises the question of why he lies if there is no treasonous intent. For Ned to keep all of this secret is highly reasonable. Which is the standard I think we need to apply here, I think.

With Ned's character, I think I've made it clear this isn't my read of his character, but Martin has also made it clear that none of his characters are just one way and not made up of shades of grey. I don't think we can rule out Ned having darker sides to his character than we have seen.

By now, Ygrain, I think you know what I think about R+L=J. I haven't exactly made a secret of my support of this theory since the second thread on the topic. I just think ruling out alternatives with the wave of a hand gives those of us do support the theory a bad rep. Discuss the evidence and say why you think it means what you believe. That's all I ask. Add a little respect for other's views and we might actually learn new things from each other.

I understand what Ashara's family's political ties are, I just don't think that her having an affair with Ned would count as treason on either's part. It didn't affect his military decisions in any way, he still won the war for Robert. Plus, "my life is not so precious" Ned wouldn't lie to protect his own life. I do find somewhat more plausible that he would lie to protect Ashara's honour - but that would only make sense if Ashara's dishonour was a secret, and we know it wasn't.

I'm not handwaving anything. If anyone wants to try and give some reasoning the way you did, fine. But in all my time here since thread 19 or so, I haven't seen a single compelling case.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As i noted above,i do think Rhaegar requested the roses,but i think that request or how ever he procured the roses happened 'during' the 10days.It wasn't something he thought of prior to the tourney but while eveyone was there mingling he arragned this to happen.For the purpose to do exactly as he did on the last day of the tourney.But i will add "his" intentions were not political or romantic,though political machinations were born from what he did.

When i was doing the research for my essay the atmosphere of the Tourney presented itself very differently.It wasn't all this conspiracy stuff.I think there was some of that but among the younger members of the court it was very different.

There’s nothing like a tourney to make the blood run hot, so maybe some words were whispered in a tent of night, words or kisses maybe more, but where’s the harm in that Spring had come-Harwin to Arya-(ASOS,Arya).

"Under Harren's roof he ate and drank with the wolves, and many of their sworn swords besides, barrowdown men and moose and bears and mermen. The dragon prince sang a song so sad it made the wolf maid sniffle, but when her pup brother teased her for crying she poured wine over his head. A black brother spoke, asking the knights to join the Night's Watch. The storm lord drank down the knight of skulls and kisses in a wine-cup war.

What was certain is the younger people were having fun.Drinking,dancing crap like that, so as a matter of accuracy they were all intermingling.Lyanna seem to be most comfortable hanging with he boys.

Another thing that was certain is that couples were hooking up.People who may have had a little crush here or there most likely did a little dabbling.

But wouldn't 10 days be way too little time to send for winter roses from the North? Or do they also grow elsewhere?

Could you explain what you mean with "But i will add "his" intentions were not political or romantic,though political machinations were born from what he did."? Or is that going to be in your essay?

Are you also still writing the essay on Jon and Robb's respective ages, btw? :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Robert/Ned:

We have to keep in mind that Ned actually claims that Robert would never harm him or his (i.e. his children and extended kin). If he says that he cannot possibly believe that Robert would kill Jon Snow who would be Ned's nephew, and Lyanna's son as well as Rhaegar's. Does anybody actually believe Robert would have killed Lyanna's son - the only thing left of her after his death had he been the guy/with Ned at the tower? I don't think so. Elia, Rhaenys, and Aegon were nothing to Robert, just as Viserys and Daenerys - but Lyanna was the woman he loved, and Ned was his best friend and most important supporter throughout the war.

Ned is also surprised about Robert's ruthless attitude towards the Targaryens-in-exile - if he had secretly feared Robert would killed Jon should he ever find out the truth about him he would most likely also expected that Robert wouldn't show any mercy towards them. Yet that's exactly what Ned expects of Robert.

Considering that Eddard Stark was the Lord of Winterfell and Warden of the North, married to Hoster Tully's eldest daughter, and a good friend of Jon Arryn the very nature of the rebel alliance that brought down the Targaryens would have made it completely impossible for Robert to actually threaten Jon's life should he have found it out. Ned would never have handed the boy over to Robert - just as Jon Arryn didn't deliver Robert and Ned to Aerys. If Robert had pushed Ned in that matter he'd have destroyed his whole power base in a heart beat. The Tullys and Arryns wouldn't have backed Robert in a war against the North, and would have perhaps fought against him. That would leave the Lannisters and possibly the Tyrells, to be sure, but we know how difficult it would be actually try to attack or conquer the North. Not to mention that Robert would have to be completely mad to actually go to war over this - Jon Snow could never become a threat to him. The boy looks like a Stark, not a Targaryen. He was raised as a bastard, and if the truth about his heritage came out this could always be discarded as a foul rumor - only very few people would go to war in the name of a boy who may be nothing but Ned Stark's bastard.

SFDanny,

since we don't know on which side Ashara was during the war it is hardly appropriate for us to assume Ned having an affair with her is 'treason'. Not to mention that Robert wasn't king by then so fraternizing with her wouldn't be legally 'treason' even if she was not one of the rebels. It could very well be that Ned and Ashara were in love and on different sides in the war but it may also be Ashara and the Daynes in general (Ser Arthur excluded, of course) abandoned the banner of House Targaryen during the war. Nothing suggests that any Daynes were among the spearmen Doran sent to the Trident.

I think it depends... Had he been at the tower with Ned, than it would greatly matter what Lyanna said.. Had she gone with Rhaegar willingly? Had her being together with Rhaegar been willingly? If the answer to those questions are "yes", it would break Robert's heart.

Was Robert's love for Lyanna greater than his hatred of Rhaegar? If yes, than Jon might have been allowed to live.. If no, than his life would seriously be in danger.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If Lyanna confessed to Ned that she and Arthur have married, and that Jon is their son, that would be against all of the things Ned thought about Arthur, the greatest of all the Kingsguards. For Ned, Arthur would be an oathbreaker, not some shining example.

Ned acknowledged that sometimes, in order to do the right thing, it is possible to lie without losing your honor:

“It was right,” her father said. “And even the lie was… not without honor.” A Game of Thrones

Maybe Ned thought that breaking the vow of celibacy didn't tarnish Arthur's honor if he married Lyanna. It might even be possible that one of his promises to Lyanna was to keep Arthur's honor intact, so Ned didn't tell anyone about that.

This thread is an example for another possible reason for Ned to lie about Jon's parents if they were Arthur and Lyanna. If you believe that Rhaegar is Jon's father and not Arthur, who is too honorable for that, so would the rest of Westeros.

If the Lannisters would believe that Jon is Rhaegar's child, they might kill him like they killed Rhaenys and Aegon.

By lying, Ned could protect Jon's life and keep Arthur's honor intact - a lie not without honor.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think it depends... Had he been at the tower with Ned, than it would greatly matter what Lyanna said.. Had she gone with Rhaegar willingly? Had her being together with Rhaegar been willingly? If the answer to those questions are "yes", it would break Robert's heart.

Was Robert's love for Lyanna greater than his hatred of Rhaegar? If yes, than Jon might have been allowed to live.. If no, than his life would seriously be in danger.

Even if Robert could be convinced, Jon's life would still be in danger because he would represent a political threat, even as a bastard.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

R+L=J probably is oversimplified...

Oversimplified and overcomplicated both. Figuring what parts of the theory are cruft and which parts leave intriguing holes to fill is what's fun about it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If Robert had found about Jon there would have been a perfect solution for this whole thing if Robert actually would have felt threatened by a child/boy Eddard Stark claimed to have fathered on some woman (after all, whatever evidence/testimony Robert had would stand against the word of Eddard Stark - and I doubt he would have simply admitted the truth just because somebody accused him of lying): Force the boy to join the Night's Watch. A solution Eddard Stark himself decided to take without any real pressure on the truth coming out.



Even if we assume Robert would decide to murder Eddard Stark's nephew and Lyanna's son - which I don't believe - he could never go through with that. Viserys and Daenerys were exiles without visible support from Westeros who actually were on the way of becoming a severe threat. Jon Snow would just have been a helpless boy in the care of a great lord who was closely allied with another great lord, and friends with another. Any move against Ned would lead to another rebellion, one he might actually lose. He would behave exactly like Aerys.



Not sure why the Lannisters would target Jon Snow, either. Tywin didn't murder Elia and her children because he hated them, he did so to prove that he had forsaken House Targaryen forever and was actually jumping on the Baratheon bandwagon at the last possible moment. Without such proof it would have been unlikely Robert would have considered taking Cersei to bride (not to mention pardoning Jaime).



There would have been little reason to consider a child raised as a bastard as strong threat to Joffrey and Tommen.


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Even if Robert could be convinced, Jon's life would still be in danger because he would represent a political threat, even as a bastard.

O yes, that as well.

If Robert would be willing to let the boy live, there might be those with a grudge against the Targaryens/Rhaegar, who might seek to harm the boy.

There might also be those who would want to use Jon in plots against Robert, which would involve Jon in treasonous plots without him even wanting to (like Barristan's explanation of how Arianne most likely would have been executed, had Doran's pact of betrothal to Viserys had been discovered, despite the fact that Arianne had no knowledge of the pact's existance.)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

SFDanny,

since we don't know on which side Ashara was during the war it is hardly appropriate for us to assume Ned having an affair with her is 'treason'. Not to mention that Robert wasn't king by then so fraternizing with her wouldn't be legally 'treason' even if she was not one of the rebels. It could very well be that Ned and Ashara were in love and on different sides in the war but it may also be Ashara and the Daynes in general (Ser Arthur excluded, of course) abandoned the banner of House Targaryen during the war. Nothing suggests that any Daynes were among the spearmen Doran sent to the Trident.

It is an assumption which side the rebellion Ashara was on, but it is not an outrageous one. She is the daughter of a loyalist house, handmaiden to Elia, and sister to the Crown Prince's best friend and closest companion. Could she have been a rebel? Sure, but it is likely she was not. Really though, the debate between the two possibilities isn't the point. The point is, is there a reasonable explanation as to why Ned would keep Ashara's identity a secret from Jon, Catelyn, and others? Yes, I think I've laid out an entirely reasonable explanation. Not that I believe it to be the truth. It is, however, reasonable.

Yes, you are right Robert is not the King when this meeting would have had to take place, but that doesn't mean that the other rebel leaders, Jon, Hoster, and Robert, wouldn't think it a possibly treasonous thing to keep secret from them. This could well represent much more than fraternizing with an individual enemy, considering Ashara's relationships with people in the loyalist cause. Then there is the undeniable fact that Ned has lied to his king - Robert is king by the time he tells him of Jon's existence and the the lie of Wylla being his mother - and lying to kings is a crime. Lying to Robert to protect Ashara and to prevent Robert knowing Ned and Ashara meet during the war is treason. No matter how you slice it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Even if Robert could be convinced, Jon's life would still be in danger because he would represent a political threat, even as a bastard.

Totally agree!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I do see what your saying with the abduction and that may have happened,but i was thinking along the lines of he left her in her room and what happened after was out of his hands and without his knowledge.

This reading misses out a very important detail.

And so it was done. But when morning come, the singer had vanished . . . and so had Lord Brandon's maiden daughter. Her bed they found empty, but for the pale blue rose that Bael had left on the pillow where her head had lain.

If he left her in her room, why did he leave the flower? Lord Stark gave him "the fairest flower that blooms in the gardens o' Winterfell." He returned the flower, because instead he'd taken a different "fairest flower" with him. There's a very clear implication of replacement -- the daughter had vanished, and Bael had left a flower in her place. Bael took her.

According to the Story, Bael was nowhere to be found until AFTER the Stark Maiden returns, with child. Then he goes back to being King-beyond-the-wall. I think the implication is quite clear that he was hiding out with her until the child was born. We don't need to ask whether this makes any kind of practical, political or logistical sense because it's a folk-story. What is important is what is said to have happened, not what actually did happen.

"Your Bael was a liar," he told her, certain now.

"No," Ygritte said, "but a bard's truth is different than yours or mine.

"Ned Stark reached out his hand to grasp the flowery crown, but beneath the pale blue petals the thorns lay hidden. He felt them clawing at his skin, sharp and cruel, ,saw the slow trickle of blood run down his fingers, and woke, trembling, in the dark.

Promise me, Ned, his sister had whispered from her bed of blood. She had loved the scent of winter roses."

In the context of Ned's thought especially the tone of it,i took it to mean Lyanna may have no longer liked them anymore.But it could also mean she had loved them when alive period.

The former is an interesting thought, but the latter is a simpler reading, and I think makes more sense. She was clutching rose petals when she died, and Ned still brings her flowers.

My thought is the tourney was 10days time enough before the last day to get the roses and make a crown which is what i think happened.Do i think Rhaegar intentionally had it made yes,but for the purpose of saying what he wanted to say on the last day.

Agreed. I think the blue rose problem is one of those problems that's only a problem if we chose to make it so. Virtually every noble in Westeros was at Harrenhal, taking the opportunity to show off their family's strength. It would have been the biggest market for luxury goods in Westeros for many years, and flowers would be a principle way of showing wealth (difficulties in transporting flowers meant that historically floral displays were one of the most standard ways of displaying wealth). It seems rather unlikely to me that a rare and valued flower like blue winter roses would not be on sale there during the tourney, and I see zero reason to assume that Rhaegar couldn't have had the crown made up that morning.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It will lead to war.



Robert and HIS councils will not allow it. Let alone Cersei. Knowing something of Rhaegar and Lyanna survived the war in Jon, will only infuriate her further.



Her eyes burned, green fire in the dusk, like the lioness that was her sigil. “The night of our wedding feast, the first time we shared a bed, he called me by your sister’s name. He was on top of me, in me, stinking of wine, and he whispered Lyanna.”


Ned Stark thought of pale blue roses, and for a moment he wanted to weep.


If pressed upon by the crown (Cersei and the Lannisters, mostly) for answers about Jon, Ned will be open and declare that Jon is a trueborn. He will be marked as a traitor for keeping Jon alive and be demanded to bring Jon's head to Kingslanding. He will risk the isolation or the mix message of Catelyn and the Riverlands (to show message of neutrality). Leading to many Rivermen to not fight in the coming war.



But Ned will raise his banner, and the North will rally to Ned's calling. Words will spread and many Targaryen loyalists will raise their banners and come to support the North. This will clear his conscience, that the killing of Jon's 3 Kingsguards were not in vain.



When the day comes that you raise your banners, half of Westeros will be with you,” Whitebeard promised. “Your brother Rhaegar is still remembered, with great love.”


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This reading misses out a very important detail.

If he left her in her room, why did he leave the flower? Lord Stark gave him "the fairest flower that blooms in the gardens o' Winterfell." He returned the flower, because instead he'd taken a different "fairest flower" with him. There's a very clear implication of replacement -- the daughter had vanished, and Bael had left a flower in her place. Bael took her.

According to the Story, Bael was nowhere to be found until AFTER the Stark Maiden returns, with child. Then he goes back to being King-beyond-the-wall. I think the implication is quite clear that he was hiding out with her until the child was born. We don't need to ask whether this makes any kind of practical, political or logistical sense because it's a folk-story. What is important is what is said to have happened, not what actually did happen.

The former is an interesting thought, but the latter is a simpler reading, and I think makes more sense. She was clutching rose petals when she died, and Ned still brings her flowers.

Agreed. I think the blue rose problem is one of those problems that's only a problem if we chose to make it so. Virtually every noble in Westeros was at Harrenhal, taking the opportunity to show off their family's strength. It would have been the biggest market for luxury goods in Westeros for many years, and flowers would be a principle way of showing wealth (difficulties in transporting flowers meant that historically floral displays were one of the most standard ways of displaying wealth). It seems rather unlikely to me that a rare and valued flower like blue winter roses would not be on sale there during the tourney, and I see zero reason to assume that Rhaegar couldn't have had the crown made up that morning.

It could stil be read the way i suggessted......Again the flower he took wasn't her it was her virginity.He 'deflowered' her.So he may not have left the flower for LS,but for her.Now this is just an interpretation so i agree it is a matter of replacement ...the rose for ehem her rose.

The red bolded is not what the story says.The last time Bael was seen in castle was the night he got the rose the next time he shows up is when he was KBTW. But she didn't "return" because she never left the Castle she was in the crypts all along.I think there's implication and then there's what hidden behind the the text.And remember,to the Wildlings this is a true story and it may well have been.But the take away is that it is fallible and dismisses important aspects such as:

1.Her possibly running away because she had been deflowered and she was ashamed.

As for the if Lya and the roses,its a specific.Lyanna was said to have loved the smell of Winter roses.She was clutching rose petals in her hands when she died.Those petals may not have been blue.

On the latter i agree he could have had the crown made at anytime during the tourney.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

×