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SFDanny

R+L=J v147

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Have you read any of my theories, King Monkey?

Yep, a fair bit. If you stretch your mind back, we had a long and interesting exchange of PMs back in March about the nature of the three forgings. We have a lot of similar ideas, though I think there are fewer one-to-one correlations and more syncretic myth-making than you seem to.

I'm of the opinion that there were two "Lightbinger" or "luminous" swords. Dawn, as you have pointed out, is not only associated with death, but also with icy things and moonlight. Milkglass also appears on the silvered dome of the temple of the moon singers in Bravos. The bones of the Others are of course icy, and although their swords are crystal and transparent, not white as Dawn is, they are described "the pale sword" multiple times.

I missed the Temple of the Moon dome. GRRM spells it "milk glass" there. Interesting.

On black and white swords: remember Sam's discovery of "dragonsteel swords"? I've been wondering for some time if Valyrian steel is made of a dragonbone-steel alloy. Dragonbone is described in aGoT ch. 13 -- "Dragonbone is black because of its high iron content, the book told him. It is strong as steel, yet lighter and far more flexible, and of course utterly impervious to fire." Being impervious to fire would make it hard to work with, perhaps why it might need to be alloyed with iron to make Valyrian steel? Strong as steel yet lighter and far more flexible sounds like exactly the kind of thing you'd want to alloy with iron though. Being impervious to fire also means that unlike Thoros' sword, it wouldn't be damaged by being set on fire. Perhaps then Lightbringer is not any kind of magical sword, but was merely the first Valyrian steel blade -- just as it has been proposed that mythical swords such as Durendal or Excalibur (which Mallory described as shining with a light like thirty torches) may be a distorted memory of the earliest steel blades, vastly superior to the swords everyone else had. Or perhaps there's an additional blood-sacrifice component that's required to make a type of superior Valyrian steel -- VS+NN=LB.

Following the same chain of thought, might Dawn be an Otherbone sword? If Lightbringer is good really good at killing Others, does Dawn have unique dragon-killing properties?

I'm still not sure where Ned's Ice fits into this. The red impurities are odd given that Bran described Ice as being "dark as smoke", no indication of any red in it. Where did the red come from, then? Well if red is blood, Ice did get a big dose of Stark blood before being reforged. Maybe that's what it takes to turn a regular Valyrian blade into a Lightbringer -- Ned may be the new Nissa Nissa. I'm not entirely convinced of the obvious Targ colouring. Oathkeeper for Jon, Widow's Wail for Dany does work -- but it seems odd that Dany would get an ex-Stark blade. I've always had a suspicion Arya would end up with Widow's Wail.

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In the same place, no less. "Jon was armored in black ice, but his blade burned red in his fist." Armour of ice, weapon of fire. Interesting, that!

We know there's a long-awaited hero due to receive a magic sword, who is prophesied to end the night. There's a magic sword which, unlike every other ancestral blade we know of, goes not to each new lord but only to individuals considered highly worthy, heroic even. We know that magic sword is named Dawn, which is of course the end of night. It's described as being "alive with light", even.

It's just so tempting to see the parallel between Dawn and Lightbringer. Lightbringer is supposed to be a fiery sword though, and the best connection you can give between Daynes and fire is that their symbol (and supposedly the source of Dawn) is a falling star, which are pretty fiery things. The Daynes do look rather like Valyrians too, and Valyrians are all about the fire.

Dawn isn't a fiery sword. In fact while it's said to have a unique appearance, that's not entirely true.

Shiny / alive with light / glows in the dark, and pale as milkglass. Interesting that Dawn is so clearly linked with things that are all about death and the doom of mankind.

There's only one other mention of milkglass in the books. When Tyrion looks through Pycelle's potions, he remarks on pots, vials, jars and milkglass bottles. The poison that he takes is in a bottle. Not sure what to make of that if anything -- there's no glow after all -- but maybe that's one more association between milkglass and death.

Yes, it really is tempting to see the parallels between Dawn and Lightbringer. GRRM said we will see a new Sword of the morning and since Gerold is not worthy and Edric is 13 and was at least until now not that important it is tempting to see Jon as a new Sword of the morning. We know someone will wield it and Edric and a secret Dayne are the only option we have. My main problem with RLJ is that I don’t understand what is the point of RLJ. With all the clues about Daynes and Starks being connected to the first long night, with all the Ice and Others imaginary around Jon, with the prospect of owning this famous sword…it just seems that Jon would profit more from Dayne heritage. And yes, that is a lazy interpretation :) GRRM said that we could interpret Song of ice and fire as Dany being fire and Jon being Ice. So I don't understand why is Targ blood necessary for Jon. Especially if you believe that those king references have more to do with Jon's end game and not his current status. Ghost of High Heart said that tPtwP will have Targ blood and in this context it makes sense for him to be a Targ and this a very important point, but besides that I don't understand how Targ blood would be relevant.

About dragonbone and Valyrian steel-GRRM said that Valyrian steel is not made of dragonbone.

Q: In Valyria did they work Dragonbone into Valyrian steel?

GRRM: No.

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Very interesting angle, J Stargaryen. That had not occurred to me. :cheers:

Hat tip to Fire Eater for first pointing out the Stark/stone theme. :cheers:

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Yes, it really is tempting to see the parallels between Dawn and Lightbringer. GRRM said we will see a new Sword of the morning and since Gerold is not worthy and Edric is 13 and was at least until now not that important it is tempting to see Jon as a new Sword of the morning. We know someone will wield it and Edric and a secret Dayne are the only option we have. My main problem with RLJ is that I don’t understand what is the point of RLJ. With all the clues about Daynes and Starks being connected to the first long night, with all the Ice and Others imaginary around Jon, with the prospect of owning this famous sword…it just seems that Jon would profit more from Dayne heritage. And yes, that is a lazy interpretation :) GRRM said that we could interpret Song of ice and fire as Dany being fire and Jon being Ice. So I don't understand why is Targ blood necessary for Jon. Especially if you believe that those king references have more to do with Jon's end game and not his current status. Ghost of High Heart said that tPtwP will have Targ blood and in this context it makes sense for him to be a Targ and this a very important point, but besides that I don't understand how Targ blood would be relevant.

I'm guessing, but I think perhaps the "need" for more than one Targaryen (both Dany and Jon) is possibly tied to Dany's vision and the "dragon must have three heads" thing. But that's just a guess.

You're right--if Jon can be ice and Dany fire--he doesn't "need" to be a Targayen--although he still could. Still have imagery around him that is at least highly suggestive of Targaryens. And hints in the storyline. Still seems likely.

And, dealing with the vision, it is never explained where Rhaegar gets that from, why dragon needs three heads--and, since he seems to look at Dany (doesn't see her, but she seems to think it's as though he's looking towards her)--I've usually thought the "third head" is hinted at being her, not Jon.

So, to fulfill a role in the novel, even a key role, I think I see your point--Jon doesn't necessarily need to be Targaryen. In fact, it's one of my favorite little suspicions--Jon's a Targaryen, but that fact doesn't matter to his fulfillment of his role. I like the irony--would make my head happy. But your way would be even tidier--just less ironic.

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Yes, it really is tempting to see the parallels between Dawn and Lightbringer. GRRM said we will see a new Sword of the morning and since Gerold is not worthy and Edric is 13 and was at least until now not that important it is tempting to see Jon as a new Sword of the morning. We know someone will wield it and Edric and a secret Dayne are the only option we have. My main problem with RLJ is that I don’t understand what is the point of RLJ. With all the clues about Daynes and Starks being connected to the first long night, with all the Ice and Others imaginary around Jon, with the prospect of owning this famous sword…it just seems that Jon would profit more from Dayne heritage. And yes, that is a lazy interpretation :) GRRM said that we could interpret Song of ice and fire as Dany being fire and Jon being Ice. So I don't understand why is Targ blood necessary for Jon. Especially if you believe that those king references have more to do with Jon's end game and not his current status. Ghost of High Heart said that tPtwP will have Targ blood and in this context it makes sense for him to be a Targ and this a very important point, but besides that I don't understand how Targ blood would be relevant.

Wasn't there a Dayne queen in the Targ family tree? That would be two birds with one stone.

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Wasn't there a Dayne queen in the Targ family tree? That would be two birds with one stone.

Yes, Egg's mother married a Dayne. Dany and Rhaegar and presumably Jon all have a bit of Dayne and Blackwood both (Egg married a Blackwood).

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Yep, a fair bit. If you stretch your mind back, we had a long and interesting exchange of PMs back in March about the nature of the three forgings. We have a lot of similar ideas, though I think there are fewer one-to-one correlations and more syncretic myth-making than you seem to.

Right on, I took a look and I have that convo archived. I thought I remembered you in on one of the threads, but hadn't seen you a while and so wasn't sure. Would love to get your thoughts on "Black Hole Moon" when you have time. :)

I missed the Temple of the Moon dome. GRRM spells it "milk glass" there. Interesting.On black and white swords: remember Sam's discovery of "dragonsteel swords"? I've been wondering for some time if Valyrian steel is made of a dragonbone-steel alloy. Dragonbone is described in aGoT ch. 13 -- "Dragonbone is black because of its high iron content, the book told him. It is strong as steel, yet lighter and far more flexible, and of course utterly impervious to fire." Being impervious to fire would make it hard to work with, perhaps why it might need to be alloyed with iron to make Valyrian steel? Strong as steel yet lighter and far more flexible sounds like exactly the kind of thing you'd want to alloy with iron though. Being impervious to fire also means that unlike Thoros' sword, it wouldn't be damaged by being set on fire. Perhaps then Lightbringer is not any kind of magical sword, but was merely the first Valyrian steel blade -- just as it has been proposed that mythical swords such as Durendal or Excalibur (which Mallory described as shining with a light like thirty torches) may be a distorted memory of the earliest steel blades, vastly superior to the swords everyone else had. Or perhaps there's an additional blood-sacrifice component that's required to make a type of superior Valyrian steel -- VS+NN=LB.Following the same chain of thought, might Dawn be an Otherbone sword? If Lightbringer is good really good at killing Others, does Dawn have unique dragon-killing properties?

This is a major question I am wrestling with. All of the V steel swords have LB / comet kill moon imagery, both in their names and in their lore, led by Neds sword which symbolizes the comet and Lightbringer both - and it may in fact be the original Lightbringer. I know, Cat thinks it's from Valyria - but that's the only source for that. Anyway, moving right along, yes, I suspect Dawn (Ice) has dragon killing power, absolutely. My whole idea about the swords is that AAs Lightbringer was used to fight Others, and left at Winterfell where fire people could not reach it, but where it could be used if the Others come again. Dawn, the dragon killer, stays in the south where the fire people invaded last time. Makes sense to me - ice sword to check fire, and vise versa.

Regarding the bones - man, this has to be the number one "shady SSM I would really like to see verified or disproven," regarding the supposed fan correspondence with generated the "no" answer to the question of V steel containing dragonbone. It makes a lot of sense to me, given that dragonbone contains iron, and the Others bones are like milkglass, matching Dawn's description. I really like this idea - but that SSM is mentioned any time someone proposes this.

If Ran or anyone is reading this.... Any chance of getting this cleared up, as far as "is that SSM authentic?" I don't even need to know the answer from him - it doesn't seem like the kind of question he would answer, honestly - just whether or not the SSM is legit.

I'm still not sure where Ned's Ice fits into this. The red impurities are odd given that Bran described Ice as being "dark as smoke", no indication of any red in it. Where did the red come from, then? Well if red is blood, Ice did get a big dose of Stark blood before being reforged. Maybe that's what it takes to turn a regular Valyrian blade into a Lightbringer -- Ned may be the new Nissa Nissa. I'm not entirely convinced of the obvious Targ colouring. Oathkeeper for Jon, Widow's Wail for Dany does work -- but it seems odd that Dany would get an ex-Stark blade. I've always had a suspicion Arya would end up with Widow's Wail.

The red comes from Tobho's attempts to color the steel. He tried for Lannister Crimson and every time, the color would darken, as if the blade drank the sunlight from it. That's not to rule out the idea that Neds blood on the blade has some magical ramification by any means... But the coloring comes from Tobho's spells:

Tyrion cleared his throat. “My lord. You sent for me?”

His father glanced up. “I did. Come have a look at this.” A bundle of oilcloth lay on the table between them, and Lord Tywin had a longsword in his hand. “A wedding gift for Joffrey,” he told Tyrion. The light streaming through the diamond- shaped panes of glass made the blade shimmer black and red as Lord Tywin turned it to inspect the edge, while the pommel and crossguard flamed gold. “With this fool’s jabber of Stannis and his magic sword, it seemed to me that we had best give Joffrey something extraordinary as well. A king should bear a kingly weapon.”

“That’s much too much sword for Joff,” Tyrion said.

“He will grow into it. Here, feel the weight of it.” He offered the weapon hilt first. The sword was much lighter than he had expected. As he turned it in his hand he saw why. Only one metal could be beaten so thin and still have strength enough to fight with, and there was no mistaking those ripples, the mark of steel that has been folded back on itself many thousands of times. “Valyrian steel?”

“Yes,” Lord Tywin said, in a tone of deep satisfaction.

[...]

Tyrion wondered where the metal for this one had come from. A few master armorers could rework old Valyrian steel, but the secrets of its making had been lost when the Doom came to old Valyria. “The colors are strange,” he commented as he turned the blade in the sunlight. Most Valyrian steel was a grey so dark it looked almost black, as was true here as well. But blended into the folds was a red as deep as the grey. The two colors lapped over one another without ever touching, each ripple distinct, like waves of night and blood upon some steely shore. “How did you get this patterning? I’ve never seen anything like it.”

“Nor I, my lord,” said the armorer. “I confess, these colors were not what I intended, and I do not know that I could duplicate them. Your lord father had asked for the crimson of your House, and it was that color I set out to infuse into the metal. But Valyrian steel is stubborn. These old swords remember, it is said, and they do not change easily. I worked half a hundred spells and brightened the red time and time again, but always the color would darken, as if the blade was drinking the sun from it. And some folds would not take the red at all, as you can see. If my lords of Lannister are displeased, I will of course try again, as many times as you should require, but— ”

“No need,” Lord Tywin said. “This will serve.”

“A crimson sword might flash prettily in the sun, but if truth be told I like these colors better,” said Tyrion. “They have an ominous beauty … and they make this blade unique. There is no other sword like it in all the world, I should think.”

“There is one.” The armorer bent over the table and unfolded the bundle of oilcloth, to reveal a second longsword.

Tyrion put down Joffrey’s sword and took up the other. If not twins, the two were at least close cousins. This one was thicker and heavier, a half- inch wider and three inches longer, but they shared the same fine clean lines and the same distinctive color, the ripples of blood and night. Three fullers, deeply incised, ran down the second blade from hilt to point; the king’s sword had only two. Joff’s hilt was a good deal more ornate, the arms of its crossguard done as lions’ paws with ruby claws unsheathed, but both swords had grips of finely tooled red leather and gold lions’ heads for pommels. “Magnificent.” Even in hands as unskilled as Tyrion’s, the blade felt alive. “I have never felt better balance.”

“It is meant for my son.” No need to ask which son. Tyrion placed Jaime’s sword back on the table beside Joffrey’s, wondering if Robb Stark would let his brother live long enough to wield it. Our father must surely think so, else why have this blade forged?

[...]

When the guards had seen the armorer out, Tyrion clambered up onto a chair. “So … a sword for Joff, a sword for Jaime, and not even a dagger for the dwarf. Is that the way of it, Father?”

“The steel was sufficient for two blades, not three." (ASOS, TYRION)

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Yes, Egg's mother married a Dayne. Dany and Rhaegar and presumably Jon all have a bit of Dayne and Blackwood both (Egg married a Blackwood).

I think you mean Egg's father married a Dayne, don't you? Deanna Dayne marries Maekar I Targaryen and they have six children, including Egg.

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Ned had married Cat to secure Hoster's aid in his rebellion. If it was found out that Ned had broken his vows to Cat, it threatened to break his alliance with Hoster.

You must be kidding me. Alliances in a rebellion where the options are to win or to lose your head are not broken because of marital infidelity, and Cat herself stated that she understood Ned's need for the comfort of sex.

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I think you mean Egg's father married a Dayne, don't you? Deanna Dayne marries Maekar I Targaryen and they have six children, including Egg.

Indeed. Thank you ser.

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You are not Hoster Tully. You do not get to determine what Hoster decides breaks his alliance with the Starks... He had brokered an alliance with Ned on the basis that Ned was marrying his daughter. If Ned vowed to stay truthful to Catelyn as the wedding vows decree and then broke that he broke his vows... it's up to Hoster to determine whether or not the alliance goes forward not you. Ned had broken the basis of the alliance at that point...

...fanfiction. Unless you can show a piece of text stating that Hoster held such puritanic views when even his very daughter didn't expect her newly wed husband to be faithful to her during his prolonged absence because that was the way of the world, this argument is not worth even the pixels on the screen.

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You must be kidding me. Alliances in a rebellion where the options are to win or to lose your head are not broken because of marital infidelity, and Cat herself stated that she understood Ned's need for the comfort of sex.

Ha, once again, I've seen you make the exact opposite argument before... Thus proving that you are not here to figure out where GRRM is going, you are just here to bicker...

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There are more Ice imagery around Jon. Yes, he had a dream about fire and flaming sword, but he still has more Ice imagery around him. In text Jon is more connected to the First man and Others as well. His AA imaginary could just mean he is AA, no need to drag Targs along. GRRM is throwing Dawn, Daynes, Sword of the morning, parallels between Dawn and Lightbringer at us. If he is a Dayne he can get a sword. But how could Targ blood help him in any way?

I don't know how seriously I take any of the prophecies, but isn't AAR/tPtWP supposed to come from Aerys and Rhaella's line? Meaning Targaryen blood would be of importance.

Despite the very cool ramifications of Jon being a Dayne, I really don't see the real textual evidence for it. Even the "chinks = armor = Knight for a father" case VotFM brought up a few pages ago doesn't really point only to Arthur for me, because Rhaegar is associated with armor and was also a knight.

Lol! @interpretive dance!

I have no clue, I feel like I change my mind about it frequently. I'm still waiting for someone to explain to me why Rhaegar would have embarrassed his wife and crowned Lyanna. Not being contrarian, I really want to know what people believe the explanation is, because I think despite whatever his feelings were for Lyanna, he respected Elia. She was still the mother of his children.

I don't think the text gives a definitive answer to this. I think cases can be made for a few reasons, but my personal belief is that he was honoring her because she had fought as KotLT. He doesn't seem like someone who would dishonor Elia like that, but he clearly did. So what gives? We don't know enough, imo. Yet.

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I don't think the text gives a definitive answer to this. I think cases can be made for a few reasons, but my personal belief is that he was honoring her because she had fought as KotLT. He doesn't seem like someone who would dishonor Elia like that, but he clearly did. So what gives? We don't know enough, imo. Yet.

Perhaps, the first time in his life, something overcame his senseof duty. That happenseven to the most dutiful ones.

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Jon would have Dayne and Martell and Targ and an extra dose of Blackwood ancestry through Rhaegar.

Personally, I am not sold on Jon being a legitimate Targ, but I think there is more basis for it than just "he needs to be a legit Targ so he can be king."

It seems to me the idea of Arthur being Jon's father and marrying Lyanna has no basis, and is basically just trying to come up with any way for Jon to be a "legit Dayne so he can wield Dawn."

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Jon would have Dayne and Martell and Targ and an extra dose of Blackwood ancestry through Rhaegar.

Personally, I am not sold on Jon being a legitimate Targ, but I think there is more basis for it than just "he needs to be legit so he can be king."

It seems to me the idea of Arthur being Jon's father and marrying Lyanna has no basis, and is basically just trying to come up with any way for Jon to be "legit so he can wield Dawn."

Dany and Aegon (if truly alive) would also have the same Dayne bloodline. If Dorne backs Aegon as real, we may see House Dayne bestow the title and the Sword on Young Griff. He's in the vicinity and in the mix after all.

The Dayne blood could apply to any stray Targ bastards too, if Aerys had his way with Joanna. Not saying I believe this, but it's possible.

Also not sure if I believe YG is Elia's Aegon, but through the eyes of the characters and in the course of events, this could happen.

Since there are no other known members of House Dayne likely to be SotM, they may stretch the rules if the Battle for the Dawn v2 needs a hero to wield Dawn. At least, that's what I think.

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I think the sword being bestowed upon a non-Dayne with Dayne ancestry is more likely than Jon being a secret legitimate Dayne so he can cleanly be eligible for it. Though it remains to be seen if or how the sword and title come into play with Edric and Dark Star. And yes, all of Maekar's descendants would have Dayne ancestry (including Aerion, Maegor, Stannis and Shireen, and any descendants of Egg's sisters Rhae and Daella, which could possibly include Brienne).

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I think the sword being bestowed upon a non-Dayne with Dayne ancestry is more likely than Jon being a secret legitimate Dayne so he can cleanly be eligible for it. Though it remains to be seen if or how the sword and title come into play with Edric and Dark Star. And yes, all of Maekar's descendants would have Dayne ancestry (including Aerion, Maegor, Stannis and Shireen, and any descendants of Egg's sisters Rhae and Daella, which could possibly include Brienne).

I'd have no problem with Jon being Arthur's son, but I do have a problem with proving any type of legitimacy about Jon. Including being Rhaegar's legitimate son. Or illegitimate, for that matter.

Actually it might be a bit easier to prove Jon is a Dayne, since there seems to be living Daynes who would know about it. It seems like a pretty short list of credible people who could convince the realm that Jon is Rhaegar's son, unless there were other witnesses we don't know about. Howland - who is still MIA, and Wylla - who is presumably at Starfall.

More wide open doors from GRRM.

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Brienne will obviously be the next SOTM ;)

or Sword of the Evening. Daughter of the Evenstar and all that ;)

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