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SFDanny

R+L=J v147

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There is a Wylla Manderly as well, so we don't know it is Dornish, and we don't know if Wylla originated in Dorne or when she began to serve the Daynes.

We don't know any of this, but Wyl is a house name from Dorne and the earliest use of the name Wylla we have is from house Wyl. Of course, names are not geographically exclusive.

Wyman Manderly obviously has a thing for Wy-names, but I suspect that Wylla Manderly was named after Wylla the wetnurse. The Manderlys, including Wyman, fought alongside Ned at the trident, and Wylla Manderly was born shortly after Robert's rebellion. It's a fair bet that as one of the senior commanders of the North, Wyman would have heard the stories of Ned and Wylla and thought it was a clever way to ingratiate himself with Ned, without drawing much attention to the naming.

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She could also be one of the small folk that was at the Tower of Joy. In Ned's fever dream he mentions the fight and the participants and Lyanna, but you would not expect a possibly pregnant Lady to keep a secluded household running by herself and don't think the Kingsguard would do so either. Note that it is a fever dream and one of the driving premises of the series is imperfect observertion by PoV character.

Yes--problem is, we have to assume there is a staff of small folk if we assume Lyanna was at the tower. But there is no mention at all of any tower-oriented servants. And no clear statement that Lyanna or Jon were ever in the tower. That's conjecture at this point.

As Kingmonkey said--Wylla could have come from anywhere--text doesn't even try to pin that down. Only locale we have is Starfall--but that doesn't pin down her origins. We don't know where she came from.

It's also a long distance from the location of the ToJ to Starfall (which are slightly further apart than Deepwood Monte and Winterfell) through rough terrain, not an easy or short trip and would require wetnursing for a infant.

Yet another reason I have a lot of trouble with the Lyanna in tower scenario--maintaining a supply line out to a watchtower (not a stronghold) seems unreasonable. Not untenable. Not impossible. Not excluded by the text--but unreasonable. Maintaining servants and supply lines at a stronghold--that would be more reasonable.

Though nothing at all in the text says these things have to be reasonable. At present, we really don't know. And Jon can easily be Rhaegar's son--in or out of the tower. So, not crucial either way.

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She could also be one of the small folk that was at the Tower of Joy.

I think this is very likely -- and Wylla is probably a more local name to the ToJ than it is Starfall. The head of the Wyl river is in the mountains of the Prince's Pass very close to the ToJ. It could well be that she came to Starfall the first time with Ned, and stayed there.

Though I'm also quite open to the theory that Jon had already been sent on to Starfall when Ned found Lyanna at the ToJ.

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Thank you...

Wylla served at Starfall since before three years after Jon was born.

Wylla is mentioned as;

Edric's wet nurse by Edric

Jon's mother by Edric

A servant at Starfall since before Edric was born by Edric

Jon's mother by Eddard Stark

Thats it...

I think that the rumor that Wylla is Jon mother is basically tongue wagging. If Ned showed up at Starfall with a woman and infant it tow, it's likely that the woman would be thought of as the infants mother and not just a wetnurse by those that were there (especially small folk).

I believe that Eddard relating the same to Robert is just confirming the rumor/story Robert had heard and allowed Eddard to deflect further questioning from Robert.

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I think that the rumor that Wylla is Jon mother is basically tongue wagging. If Ned showed up at Starfall with a woman and infant it tow, it's likely that the woman would be thought of as the infants mother and not just a wetnurse by those that were there (especially small folk).

I believe that Eddard relating the same to Robert is just confirming the rumor/story Robert had heard and allowed Eddard to deflect further questioning from Robert.

We do not have Jon with Ned at Starfall... much less a wet nurse with Ned at Starfall...

I completely agree though as to your overall premise. I just do not like adding in who went where and when... where it does not belong.

Edric learning that he was a milk brother to Jon Snow is a fact... though we do not know how.

1. Edric was given. the story exactly as he relayed it: Unknown source: Edric you are Jon Snow's milk brother because Wylla, Jon Snow's mother, is your wet nurse.

2. Edric was given only part of the story: Unknown source: Edric you and Jon snow are milk brothers.

To make this statement true Edric makes an assumption:

Jon's mother breast feeding him and Edric make them milk brothers.

or

Jon's wet nurse being Edric's wet nurse make them milk brothers.

--Edric assumes that Wylla is Jon's mother

3. Edric was given only part of the story; Unknown source: Edric, Wylla was Jon Snow's mother

--Edric assumes Wylla breastfed her son making them milk brothers.

Two of the three possible ways the story got to Edric include the story that Wylla was Jon's mother.

Robert claimed that Ned was his source for Wylla as Jon's mother. "You told me once"

This may or may not have been the case. Ned telling Robert once could have been Ned simply not denying a rumor. However this is not supported in the text.

A rumor that Wylla was Jon Snow's mother would explain both statements. However, we do not have this rumor much less its origin.

It is a valid hypothesis-- however without support it is only that.

There is nothing wrong with holding the hypothesis and using it to fill a gap, Using a hypothesis as support for other ideas is not logically sound.

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One way to look at it is that if Dayne and Stark heritage is so connected, what would Dayne blood bring to the table? Targ blood is something new. Valyrian steel appears to have anti-Other properties. Does Dawn? We don't know, but given the similarity between Dawn and the bones of Others, it may be that Dawn is an Other-weapon in the way that Valyrian Steel is a dragon-weapon. Valyrian steel is rumoured to be tempered with Valyrian blood-magic. Wouldn't it make some sense if Jon is strengthened by being tempered with Valyrian blood?

Yes, very much. On the flip side, the insanity and fire of the dragon-blood is tempered by Jon's icy sheath - sword burning red, armored in black ice. Azor Ahai reborn in an icy sheath.

Yeah, that's a difficulty. It seems rather odd though. The description of Dragonbone comes early in the books where GRRM is loading the reader with little hints of relevant material, and it feels like it must serve a purpose as it's something he returns to early on with the descriptions of the dragon skulls.

Perhaps VS doesn't contain dragonbone, but is made to emulate the makeup of dragonbone.

Perhaps as LML suggests, there's something wrong with the SSM -- for example, actual Q: While we're talking about Valyria, could you tell us if they used Dragonbone in making VS? A: No.

Perhaps GRRM was being sneaky and hiding some even bigger twist, like A: No (it's the other way around, they used VS in making Dragonbone).

We really need to get that SSM verified. It really seems odd for George to answer a question like that at all, he doesn't usually shoot down speculative theories like that. It seems like if nothing else he planted the dragonbone = v steel ingredient as a red herring, in which case he would not give it away either.

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Dany and Aegon (if truly alive) would also have the same Dayne bloodline. If Dorne backs Aegon as real, we may see House Dayne bestow the title and the Sword on Young Griff. He's in the vicinity and in the mix after all.

The Dayne blood could apply to any stray Targ bastards too, if Aerys had his way with Joanna. Not saying I believe this, but it's possible.

Also not sure if I believe YG is Elia's Aegon, but through the eyes of the characters and in the course of events, this could happen.

Since there are no other known members of House Dayne likely to be SotM, they may stretch the rules if the Battle for the Dawn v2 needs a hero to wield Dawn. At least, that's what I think.

Cool idea. We have no way to know what the "rules" are anyway. Quite frankly I would get a kick out of Darkstar stealing it somehow, but that would be a trip if they gave it to fAegon / Aegon. Also, consider that Widow's Wail should still be in KL with Tommen. If and when fAegon takes KL, as he almost assuredly will, that would make a nice sword for a king. But yeah, if the entirety of Dorne is behind fAegon, and he performs deeds of valor, I could see them bestowing Dawn on him. That would be interesting because it would set him up to kill one of Dany's dragons, maybe.

I don't think fAegon is real, but I find the concept of using the "pisswater prince" idea quite compelling. Fuck bloodlines, what about character and valor? What about personal ability and wisdom? Not saying fAegon is going to be a great ruler, but the idea of someone with no right to the throne setting up as a good ruler for a minute seems compelling. If he goes from thinking he is going to marry Dany and ride a dragon to killing a dragon would be compelling. All speculation, of course, just thinking about things which would fit with George's themes and m.o.

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I'm really intrigued with how Martin is bringing together the Blackwoods and the Starks, because if true, Melissa's good sister was a Stark and an aunt to Bloodraven whom he might have had some interaction with.

I wonder if she might be one of the She Wolves in Dunk & Egg?

If so, the Starks are actually shaping up to be the fictional parallels of the historic Neville family.

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I do find the imagery involved here satisfying, but not entirely convincing. Cat's knowledge is the only source we have for Ned's Ice being VS, but that's more than the sources we have for it not. Mott's VS-reforging spells do seem to work on it, and it has the look of VS. Of course it might be that it's something older made by the same process.

There's also the issue that if Ned's Ice is LB, we have to explain how it made its way half way around the world.

If the Last Hero's dragon steel is Lightbringer, as Radio Westeros and others suspect, then we know AA's sword made it to Westeros. I think the fused stone fortress at Battle Isle also shows a connection with the ancient dragon lords from Asshai, who I think "the Great Empire of the Dawn" is just another name for. Regardless of the GEotD, we know fused stone is only built with dragon flame and sorcery, and Battle Isle fortress was already built and abandoned when the first First Men arrived. We have all the dragonslayers tales from the Reach also to suggest dragonlords made it to Westeros in the Dawn Age. I for one think Battle Isle was the site of the first Battle of the War for the Dawn. So getting Lightbringer to Westeros isn't really a problem. Many already think that happened, before we got the fused stone info from TWOIAF.

Mott's spells only work on one layer of the sword - the black layer doesn't take the coloring. The other layer takes the coloring, but darkens it. Tobho is using spells / techniques intended to color V steel, and he speaks as though it is not his first time working with v steel. There are three anomalies here:

- Two layers which do not mix

- One layer which takes NO coloring from Tobho's technique

- One layer which drinks the light and darkens color

We have no way of knowing if the same would happen with other V steel sword or not, because no one has ever tried to do so in the books, which is the source of my conundrum.

Waves of blood and night is a very important phrase. It is referring to the "black and bloody tide" which Mel sees in her vision (one that includes dragons and Mel seeing Jon Snow when she asks for Azor Ahai). The black and bloody tide is itself a metaphor for the floods and tsunamis triggered by the drowning of the moon. Moon blood, get it? My new essay explores all the instances of black blood, blood tides, dark tides, and black tides, and it seems they all are telling the same story, about this black tide which came during the Long Night after moon meteors slammed into the ocean near Westeros.

Neds sword symbolizes Lightbringer, if it is not the actual Lightbringer (according to me of course). The waves of blood and night upon some steely shore description is hung on Oathkeeper & Widows Wail because the moon meteors which caused the black and bloody tide symbolize Lightbringer, being the offspring of sun-comet and moon.

Waves of blood and night are also Targaryen colors.

I'm not convinced that's true. He was trying to colour the metal red, but not that red -- and there is something in that passage to suggest that the red is about Ned, not Lannister crimson:

First bold: Mott has never seen anything like this before. His spells (if spells indeed should be considered -- there's a long tradition of the secrets of metalworking being believed magical) are not working in the way he expects them to. The blade seems to be rejecting his intent.

Second bold: What else remembers? The North.

He was trying to color it crimson, and it drank the light and turned to blood red. Clearly, something is acting strange. I am open to Neds blood causing some effect here, but it's not just the darkening red, it's the two layers, and the fact that the other layer didn't take the coloring at all, as I was saying in the comment above this one.

We still don't know what the North remembers though, do we?

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I'm really intrigued with how Martin is bringing together the Blackwoods and the Starks, because if true, Melissa's good sister was a Stark and an aunt to Bloodraven whom he might have had some interaction with.

I wonder if she might be one of the She Wolves in Dunk & Egg?

If so, the Starks are actually shaping up to be the fictional parallels of the historic Neville family.

Could you perhaps elaborate?

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Could you perhaps elaborate?

Will do on my laptop. Too complicated for my phone. :)

See LV rundown on who Melissa's brother was married to, and I'll go from there :)

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Will do on my laptop. Too complicated for my phone. :)

See LV rundown on who Melissa's brother was married to, and I'll go from there :)

I am familiar with the MUSH tree for House Blackwood :) I'll wait patiently

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King Monkey, here are couple of quotes to tease what I was talking about:


The point of land on which the Greyjoys had raised their fortress had once thrust like a sword into the bowels of the ocean, but the waves had hammered at it day and night until the land broke and shattered, thousands of years past. All that remained were three bare and barren islands and a dozen towering stacks of rock that rose from the water like the pillars of some sea god’s temple, while the angry waves foamed and crashed among them. {…}

The Sea Tower rose from the outmost island at the point of the broken sword, the oldest part of the castle, round and tall, the sheer- sided pillar on which it stood half- eaten through by the endless battering of the waves. The base of the tower was white from centuries of salt spray, the upper stories green from the lichen that crawled over it like a thick blanket, the jagged crown black with soot from its nightly watchfire. (ACOK, Theon)

When Stannis uses shadow-Lightbringer to kill Renly, again we see a dark, bloody tide:


“I beg you in the name of the Mother,” Catelyn began when a sudden gust of wind flung open the door of the tent. She thought she glimpsed movement, but when she turned her head, it was only the king’s shadow shifting against the silken walls. She heard Renly begin a jest, his shadow moving, lifting its sword, black on green, candles guttering, shivering, something was queer, wrong, and then she saw Renly’s sword still in its scabbard, sheathed still, but the shadowsword … “Cold,” said Renly in a small puzzled voice, a heartbeat before the steel of his gorget parted like cheesecloth beneath the shadow of a blade that was not there. He had time to make a small thick gasp before the blood came gushing out of his throat. “Your Gr— no! ” cried Brienne the Blue when she saw that evil flow, sounding as scared as any little girl. The king stumbled into her arms, a sheet of blood creeping down the front of his armor, a dark red tide that drowned his green and gold. More candles guttered out. Renly tried to speak, but he was choking on his own blood.

Jojen foresaw "black waves" of water coming over winterfell, which turned out to be a metaphor for Ironborn. And indeed, the Ironborn are full of black tides and bloody moon imagery.. (must not go down rabbit hole...) Mikken was prophesied to drown, and drown he did - on blood.

The bald man drove the point of his spear into the back of Mikken’s neck. Steel slid through flesh and came out his throat in a welter of blood. A woman screamed, and Meera wrapped her arms around Rickon. It’s blood he drowned on, Bran thought numbly. His own blood. (ACOK, Bran)

The maester set down the candle and wiped the blood off his cheek. “They swam the moat. Climbed the walls with hook and rope. Came over wet and dripping, steel in hand.” He sat on the chair by the door, as fresh blood flowed. “Alebelly was on the gate, they surprised him in the turret and killed him. Hayhead’s wounded as well. I had time to send off two ravens before they burst in. The bird to White Harbor got away, but they brought down the other with an arrow.” (ACOK, Bran)

It works like this: a burning brand falls to into the sea from a fallen star (the moon), triggering a black and bloody tide, which has something to do with the Ironborn invading:

They could see the fire in the night, glimmering against the side of the mountain like a fallen star. It burned redder than the other stars, and did not twinkle, though sometimes it flared up bright and sometimes dwindled down to no more than a distant spark, dull and faint. {…}

“The wolf will remain with us,” Qhorin said. “White fur is seen too easily by moonlight.” He turned to Stonesnake. “When it’s done, throw down a burning brand. We’ll come when we see it fall.” (ACOK, JON)

“In Riverrun, they would tell you different. They say the red comet is a herald of a new age. A messenger from the gods.”

“A sign it is,” the priest agreed, “but from our god, not theirs. A burning brand it is, such as our people carried of old. It is the flame the Drowned God brought from the sea, and it proclaims a rising tide. It is time to hoist our sails and go forth into the world with fire and sword, as he did.” (ACOK, Theon)

Aeron Damphair raised his arms. “And the waters of wrath will rise high, and the Drowned God will spread his dominion across the green lands!” (ACOK, Theon)

Asha never beached more than half her ships. The other half stood safely off to sea, with orders to raise sail and make for Sea Dragon Point if the northmen took the strand. “Hagen, blow your horn and make the forest shake.Tris, don some mail, it’s time you tried out that sweet sword of yours.” When she saw how pale he was, she pinched his cheek. “Splash some blood upon the moon with me, and I promise you a kiss for every kill.” (ADWD, The Wayward Bride)

Visions danced before her, gold and scarlet, flickering, forming and melting and dissolving into one another, shapes strange and terrifying and seductive. She saw the eyeless faces again, staring out at her from sockets weeping blood. Then the towers by the sea, crumbling as the dark tide came sweeping over them, rising from the depths. Shadows in the shape of skulls, skulls that turned to mist, bodies locked together in lust, writhing and rolling and clawing. Through curtains of fire great winged shadows wheeled against a hard blue sky. {…} A wooden face, corpse white. Was this the enemy? A thousand red eyes floated in the rising flames. He sees me. Beside him, a boy with a wolf’s face threw back his head and howled. The red priestess shuddered. Bloodtrickled down her thigh, black and smoking. The fire was inside her, an agony, an ecstasy, filling her, searing her, transforming her. Shimmers of heat traced patterns on her skin, insistent as a lover’s hand. {...}

The spears were eight feet long and made of ash. The one on the left had a slight crook, but the other two were smooth and straight. At the top of each was impaled a severed head. Their beards were full of ice, and the falling snow had given them white hoods. Where their eyes had been, only empty sockets remained, black and bloody holes that stared down in silent accusation.

“We’ve had a raven from Ser Denys Mallister at the Shadow Tower,” Jon Snow told her. “His men have seen fires in the mountains on the far side of the Gorge. Wildlings massing, Ser Denys believes. He thinks they are going to try to force the Bridge of Skulls again.”

“Some may.” Could the skulls in her vision have signified this bridge? Somehow Melisandre did not think so. “If it comes, that attack will be no more than a diversion. I saw towers by the sea, submerged beneath a black and bloody tide. That is where the heaviest blow will fall.

“Eastwatch?” Was it? Melisandre had seen Eastwatch- by- the- Sea with King Stannis. That was where His Grace left Queen Selyse and their daughter Shireen when he assembled his knights for the march to Castle Black. The towers in her fire had been different, but that was oft the way with visions. “Yes. Eastwatch, my lord.”

“When?”

She spread her hands. “On the morrow. In a moon’s turn. (ADWD, Melisandre)

Sorry for the copy and paste font color weirdness.

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If the Last Hero's dragon steel is Lightbringer, as Radio Westeros and others suspect, then we know AA's sword made it to Westeros. I think the fused stone fortress at Battle Isle also shows a connection with the ancient dragon lords from Asshai

Could you please give me a short geography update about that "Battle Isle"? If I ever read of that I have a momentary lapse of memory of it. Does it go by another name maybe?

eta: Oh, never mind, I found it again in TWoIaF (Oldtown's history).

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If anyone has not read Radio Westeros's theory about dragonglass and Lightbringer, that can be found here. :)

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Wyman Manderly obviously has a thing for Wy-names, but I suspect that Wylla Manderly was named after Wylla the wetnurse. The Manderlys, including Wyman, fought alongside Ned at the trident, and Wylla Manderly was born shortly after Robert's rebellion. It's a fair bet that as one of the senior commanders of the North, Wyman would have heard the stories of Ned and Wylla and thought it was a clever way to ingratiate himself with Ned, without drawing much attention to the naming.

Seems pretty unlikely to me.

If Wylla is just the wetnurse, naming a noble daughter after a common servant is a fairly odd way to try to curry favour. What is Ned supposed to feel about that? Manderly could have named his girl for Ned's mother, or his great-grandmother, but he went for... someone who Ned employs, temporarily. How is that flattering?

If Wylla was Jon's mother, on the other hand, how's Cat supposed to feel about it? Bloody angry, I would suggest.

Either way, how is Wylla Manderly supposed to feel about it? A noble girl named after a common servant? Embarrassed, I'd suspect: she's likely to be the target of some mockery, rather than anything else.

Nobles don't generally name their kids after commoners. I can't think of a single example of it in the books. So, I'm guessing this was not that.

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Plus, it is rather weird that Wyman should know about Wylla when no-one in Winterfell does (see the Invisible Campfollower theory).



If Wylla Manderly was named after the Wylla, it was metatextual, just like Lyanna Mormont was named after Lyanna not so much as to curry favour with Ned but to remind the reader of another spirited and defiant Lyanna.


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Plus, it is rather weird that Wyman should know about Wylla when no-one in Winterfell does (see the Invisible Campfollower theory).

If Wylla Manderly was named after the Wylla, it was metatextual, just like Lyanna Mormont was named after Lyanna not so much as to curry favour with Ned but to remind the reader of another spirited and defiant Lyanna.

Yeah--I could buy that. The only question is--do readers get anything from it? Lyanna Mormont is spirited and defiant, as you say. But we know it's at least something of a tie in because we know at least a few things about Lyanna Stark's personality. Do we know anything about Wylla Wetnurse? Anything that could parallel with Wylla Manderly? I can't think of anything, but I'm away from my books. . .

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Seems pretty unlikely to me.

If Wylla is just the wetnurse, naming a noble daughter after a common servant is a fairly odd way to try to curry favour. What is Ned supposed to feel about that? Manderly could have named his girl for Ned's mother, or his great-grandmother, but he went for... someone who Ned employs, temporarily. How is that flattering?

If Wylla was Jon's mother, on the other hand, how's Cat supposed to feel about it? Bloody angry, I would suggest.

Either way, how is Wylla Manderly supposed to feel about it? A noble girl named after a common servant? Embarrassed, I'd suspect: she's likely to be the target of some mockery, rather than anything else.

Nobles don't generally name their kids after commoners. I can't think of a single example of it in the books. So, I'm guessing this was not that.

Could it be that Wylla is just a name, not modeled after anyone in particular? Commoners may name children after nobles, I dunno. Why would Wylla Manderly be named after a servant? Or did I misunderstand your point?

ETA: never mind, I missed what KM said. Yes, I'm in agreement with you.

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Nobles don't generally name their kids after commoners. I can't think of a single example of it in the books.

I can think of Duncan Targaryen (Duncan the Small).

Other than that I agree.

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