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SFDanny

R+L=J v147

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We don't know any of this, but Wyl is a house name from Dorne and the earliest use of the name Wylla we have is from house Wyl. Of course, names are not geographically exclusive.

Wyman Manderly obviously has a thing for Wy-names, but I suspect that Wylla Manderly was named after Wylla the wetnurse. The Manderlys, including Wyman, fought alongside Ned at the trident, and Wylla Manderly was born shortly after Robert's rebellion. It's a fair bet that as one of the senior commanders of the North, Wyman would have heard the stories of Ned and Wylla and thought it was a clever way to ingratiate himself with Ned, without drawing much attention to the naming.

Seems pretty unlikely to me.

If Wylla is just the wetnurse, naming a noble daughter after a common servant is a fairly odd way to try to curry favour. What is Ned supposed to feel about that? Manderly could have named his girl for Ned's mother, or his great-grandmother, but he went for... someone who Ned employs, temporarily. How is that flattering?

If Wylla was Jon's mother, on the other hand, how's Cat supposed to feel about it? Bloody angry, I would suggest.

Either way, how is Wylla Manderly supposed to feel about it? A noble girl named after a common servant? Embarrassed, I'd suspect: she's likely to be the target of some mockery, rather than anything else.

Nobles don't generally name their kids after commoners. I can't think of a single example of it in the books. So, I'm guessing this was not that.

Plus, it is rather weird that Wyman should know about Wylla when no-one in Winterfell does (see the Invisible Campfollower theory).

If Wylla Manderly was named after the Wylla, it was metatextual, just like Lyanna Mormont was named after Lyanna not so much as to curry favour with Ned but to remind the reader of another spirited and defiant Lyanna.

Yeah--I could buy that. The only question is--do readers get anything from it? Lyanna Mormont is spirited and defiant, as you say. But we know it's at least something of a tie in because we know at least a few things about Lyanna Stark's personality. Do we know anything about Wylla Wetnurse? Anything that could parallel with Wylla Manderly? I can't think of anything, but I'm away from my books. . .

I think GRRM is using Wylla Manderly to give us a hint that Wylla the wetnurse knows about RLJ. If not exactly that, it at least seems to connect Jon Snow with Ned's promise to Lyanna.

“Hush, child,” said Lady Leona. “You heard your lord grandfather. Hush! You know nothing.”

I know about the promise,” insisted the girl. - ADwD, Davos III

"You know nothing" reminds the reader of Jon Snow. But then this Wylla replies that knows about the promise. Promise me, Ned.

The reply to "You know nothing" is interesting too, because if Jon knew about the promise, he would no longer know nothing (of his real identity).

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If Wylla is just the wetnurse, naming a noble daughter after a common servant is a fairly odd way to try to curry favour. What is Ned supposed to feel about that? Manderly could have named his girl for Ned's mother, or his great-grandmother, but he went for... someone who Ned employs, temporarily. How is that flattering?

Robert believed that Wylla was rather more than just a common servant in Ned's eyes. The Wylla story is not widely-known, so Wylla Manderly could easily not even know she had been named after a common servant. With a Wyman, a Wylis and a Wynyfred already in the family, people who weren't in the know wouldn't even question it. If Wyman believed the story, he'd think his granddaughter was not being named after someone Ned employed temporarily, but rather someone who'd meant enough to Ned to "make Lord Eddard Stark forget his honor".

Plus, it is rather weird that Wyman should know about Wylla when no-one in Winterfell does (see the Invisible Campfollower theory).

We don't know that nobody in Winterfell knows about Wylla. We know that it wasn't the standard story, and it's a fair assumption -- though even this is not certain -- that nobody who'd heard that story told Cat. That's as much as we do know. We know for a fact that Robert is not the only person to have heard the story -- Edric Dayne has, too. Cersei may have had rumours of it ("some Dornish peasant..."). Wyman was one of the highest ranking nobles in the rebel army and just the kind of person it's easy to believe would be one of Ned and Robert's drinking buddies (Robert and Wyman sound like they'd get on very well indeed), in a perfect position to overhear or be a part of the conversation when Ned told Robert. I don't think it's weird at all.

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"You know nothing" reminds the reader of Jon Snow. But then this Wylla replies that knows about the promise. Promise me, Ned.

The reply to "You know nothing" is interesting too, because if Jon knew about the promise, he would no longer know nothing (of his real identity).

This, I believe, is exactly why GRRM gave her that name. The in-world rationale for her naming is a different matter.

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This, I believe, is exactly why GRRM gave her that name. The in-world rationale for her naming is a different matter.

The in-world rationale could just be that it was a W-name and the Manderly's appear to have a fondness for W names. For them, in universe they are not thinking in terms of Wyall, the nursemaid. But I agree with J.Star and with you, that GRRM's reasoning is something more, namely RLJ.

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I think GRRM is using Wylla Manderly to give us a hint that Wylla the wetnurse knows about RLJ. If not exactly that, it at least seems to connect Jon Snow with Ned's promise to Lyanna.

"You know nothing" reminds the reader of Jon Snow. But then this Wylla replies that knows about the promise. Promise me, Ned.

The reply to "You know nothing" is interesting too, because if Jon knew about the promise, he would no longer know nothing (of his real identity).

Oh. Wow. I never noticed that. How clever. I'll never get over how good GRRM is, tbh. So many little call backs to events, symbols, character moments. Amazing.

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^^^ I agree, that's another great catch J Stargaryen.

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I'm not really buying that. This series has already way too many clues for this mystery so there shouldn't be any need for more. But I could be wrong. It is clear, though, that George had not yet figured out the plant/flower name thing for commoner girls - Wylla and Robert's lovers all seem to have actual names.



But to come back to another thing nobody seemed to care when I posted it:



Has anybody ever asked why Ned didn't make Jon Snow Lyanna's bastard by Rhaegar instead of claiming he was his bastard? A bastard has no claim, and thus Rhaegar's bastard couldn't possibly hope to become king - especially not if he was never legitimized. Considering Aerys' active sex life in the first half of his life we should expect that there were multiple Targaryen bastards alive by the time of the Rebellion yet none of them are mentioned (presumably because the king never acknowledged such a child as his own).



Neither Robert nor his allies could have seen Rhaegar's bastard as threat to him, especially not if that child was raised by Eddard Stark, but telling the truth about the parentage could have helped Eddard's family life a lot.



The only reason I could see for that action is that Rhaegar and Lyanna were actually married, and that the whole Realm knew about that. Only then, only if the there was a public wedding would have been no possibility to make Lyanna's child a bastard in the eyes of the world. If there was a secret marriage, and only Rhaegar, Lyanna, and the dead knights knew about it, Ned could have claimed that Jon was Lyanna's bastard. The fact that he did not do that is a strong sign that this wasn't possible.



And in light of the fact that Viserys and Dany believed that Rhaegar was actually in love with Lyanna we should go with the assumption of a public marriage - which would have been the singular event which caused the war.


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I think GRRM is using Wylla Manderly to give us a hint that Wylla the wetnurse knows about RLJ. If not exactly that, it at least seems to connect Jon Snow with Ned's promise to Lyanna.

"You know nothing" reminds the reader of Jon Snow. But then this Wylla replies that knows about the promise. Promise me, Ned.

The reply to "You know nothing" is interesting too, because if Jon knew about the promise, he would no longer know nothing (of his real identity).

Could be--it does bring the reader's mind back to the idea of a promise. And presumably Wylla would have had to be told some kind of story about the child she was nursing--though not sure why she would have had to be told the truth. Especially since she's a servant.

Not sure it's a clear tie between Wylla and Jon--but it might be a hint.

It may add to the list of people who could show up and monologue about the truth--we've got Howland and Benjen (presumably)--maybe Wylla. Now, just need to make sure it's a better monologue than Lyssa's re: Jon Arryn's murder.

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I think GRRM is using Wylla Manderly to give us a hint that Wylla the wetnurse knows about RLJ. If not exactly that, it at least seems to connect Jon Snow with Ned's promise to Lyanna.

"You know nothing" reminds the reader of Jon Snow. But then this Wylla replies that knows about the promise. Promise me, Ned.

The reply to "You know nothing" is interesting too, because if Jon knew about the promise, he would no longer know nothing (of his real identity).

I agree. Just like how he uses it with this passage when Theon was with Esgred, who was no wench at all, as Theon learn later.

Have you ever had a prince?” he asked her. “When you’re wrinkled and grey and your teats hang past your belly, you can tell your children’s children that once you loved a king.”

“Oh, is it love we’re talking now? And here I thought it was just cocks and cunts.”

Is it love you fancy?” He’d decided that he liked this wench, whoever she was; her sharp wit was a welcome respite from the damp gloom of Pyke. “Shall I name my longship after you, and play you the high harp, and keep you in a tower room in my castle with only jewels to wear, like a princess in a song?

**Rhaegar played the high harp, kept Lyanna, who most likely was a princess, since he married her, in a tower.

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I agree. Just like how he uses it with this passage when Theon was with Esgred, who was no wench at all, as Theon learn later.

Have you ever had a prince?” he asked her. “When you’re wrinkled and grey and your teats hang past your belly, you can tell your children’s children that once you loved a king.”

“Oh, is it love we’re talking now? And here I thought it was just cocks and cunts.”

Is it love you fancy?” He’d decided that he liked this wench, whoever she was; her sharp wit was a welcome respite from the damp gloom of Pyke. “Shall I name my longship after you, and play you the high harp, and keep you in a tower room in my castle with only jewels to wear, like a princess in a song?

**Rhaegar played the high harp, kept Lyanna, who most likely was a princess, since he married her, in a tower.

Forgive me, but I can't see how Theon's hypothetical scenario is in any way a hint at Rhaegar and Lyanna. Theon's just spouting boilerplate romance stories, standard tropes, trying to seduce someone he doesn't know. What specific connection or hint are you seeing? Or are you arguing that any generic statement about Princesses and towers in these novels is innately tied to Rhaegar and Lyanna? If so, I'm not sure how that could work--seems way too broad of a standard to manage.

If that's not what you're arguing, by all means, please correct me.

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I agree. Just like how he uses it with this passage when Theon was with Esgred, who was no wench at all, as Theon learn later.

Have you ever had a prince? he asked her. When youre wrinkled and grey and your teats hang past your belly, you can tell your childrens children that once you loved a king.

Oh, is it love were talking now? And here I thought it was just cocks and cunts.

Is it love you fancy? Hed decided that he liked this wench, whoever she was; her sharp wit was a welcome respite from the damp gloom of Pyke. Shall I name my longship after you, and play you the high harp, and keep you in a tower room in my castle with only jewels to wear, like a princess in a song?

**Rhaegar played the high harp, kept Lyanna, who most likely was a princess, since he married her, in a tower.

Isn't there a ship in the fleet named Lady Lyanna?

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Isn't there a ship in the fleet named Lady Lyanna?

:thumbsup:

Tyrion looked down upon the farewells from the high deck of King Robert’s Hammer, a great war galley of four hundred oars. Rob’s Hammer, as her oarsmen called her, would form the main strength of Myrcella’s escort. Lionstar, Bold Wind, and Lady Lyanna would

sail with her as well.

**As part of several ships escorting a princess to... none other than Dorne. ^_^

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We don't know any of this, but Wyl is a house name from Dorne and the earliest use of the name Wylla we have is from house Wyl. Of course, names are not geographically exclusive.

Wyman Manderly obviously has a thing for Wy-names, but I suspect that Wylla Manderly was named after Wylla the wetnurse. The Manderlys, including Wyman, fought alongside Ned at the trident, and Wylla Manderly was born shortly after Robert's rebellion. It's a fair bet that as one of the senior commanders of the North, Wyman would have heard the stories of Ned and Wylla and thought it was a clever way to ingratiate himself with Ned, without drawing much attention to the naming.

My thinking on this has been almost the reverse. While I did see with the publication of The World of Ice and Fire we get more regions in which the name Wylla is used, especially what may be the oldest with Wylla of Wyl, but I take the Manderlys's use of the name as regional name going back to their time in the Reach which is why we see names like Willas still used in the Highgarden area. That's why I think it likely when we combine the fisherman's daughter's tale out of the same area as Wylla Manderly that what we get is a clue to Wylla the wet nurse's home region. In short, I think the tale is a cover story for Wylla in her home region if curious minds want to search out the truth of her story claiming to be Jon's mother. As with most things around Jon's mother's identity, it seems Martin wants to drop more clues in every direction as time goes by, so, admittedly, my guess gets weaker as new "Wyllas" pop up, but it's still the best I can see.

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We don't know any of this, but Wyl is a house name from Dorne and the earliest use of the name Wylla we have is from house Wyl. Of course, names are not geographically exclusive.

Wyman Manderly obviously has a thing for Wy-names, but I suspect that Wylla Manderly was named after Wylla the wetnurse. The Manderlys, including Wyman, fought alongside Ned at the trident, and Wylla Manderly was born shortly after Robert's rebellion. It's a fair bet that as one of the senior commanders of the North, Wyman would have heard the stories of Ned and Wylla and thought it was a clever way to ingratiate himself with Ned, without drawing much attention to the naming.

There's a Wyl from Winterfell seeing as he's one of Ned's guards in King's Landing

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My thinking on this has been almost the reverse. While I did see with the publication of The World of Ice and Fire we get more regions in which the name Wylla is used, especially what may be the oldest with Wylla of Wyl, but I take the Manderlys's use of the name as regional name going back to their time in the Reach which is why we see names like Willas still used in the Highgarden area. That's why I think it likely when we combine the fisherman's daughter's tale out of the same area as Wylla Manderly that what we get is a clue to Wylla the wet nurse's home region. In short, I think the tale is a cover story for Wylla in her home region if curious minds want to search out the truth of her story claiming to be Jon's mother. As with most things around Jon's mother's identity, it seems Martin wants to drop more clues in every direction as time goes by, so, admittedly, my guess gets weaker as new "Wyllas" pop up, but it's still the best I can see.

That works. Plus, seems like Wylla's importance is more about how she connects Jon to the Daynes. Edric is extraordinarily courteous to Arya--especially considering how young he is. And his pointing out that as the Lord of Starfall, he is milk-brothers with the Bastard of Winterfell--not sure, but that doesn't seem like the sort of thing most lords take the time to point out. Edric and Jon are linked through Wylla via milk.

Don't want to go too far with this and Dawn's looking like milk glass. Could end up on a limb. But Edric's deference and respect and willingness/eagerness to share his connection with Ned Stark's bastard--clearly shows that the Daynes think highly of Ned. And that even Edric will stress his connection via milk--symbol or no symbol, Wylla helps suggest that Jon is linked with the Daynes. May have future implications, possibly with Jon and Dawn (completely inadvertent rhyme).

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I have always wondered with this thread, will the thread continue if we find out that R+L=J isn't true in The Winds of Winter or A Dream of Spring. Will people accept the new cannon if Jon's parents aren't Lyanna and Rhaegar? I am not trying to troll but it would be fascinating to me considering the years spent on this theory and the number of threads on the issue. And of course the reaction from the fan base would be very fascinating, many individuals would be shocked given their faith in a theory they now consider almost to be fact.



Edit:Spelling


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I have always wondered with this thread, will the thread continue if we find out that R+L=J isn't true in The Winds of Winter or A Dream of Spring. Will people accept the new cannon if Jon's parents aren't Lyanna and Rhaegar? I am not trying to troll but it would be fascinating to me considering the years spent on this theory and the number of threads on the issue. And of course the reaction from the fan base would be very fascinating, many individuals would be shocked given their faith in a theory they now consider almost to be fact.

Edit:Spelling

A fair question. But then reading requires predictions and filling in gaps. Which always runs the risk of being wrong. Part of what makes it fun. If RLJ ends up not working, seems like we'd get a whole new area of analysis--what did we miss? That sounds like fun, too.

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:thumbsup:

Tyrion looked down upon the farewells from the high deck of King Roberts Hammer, a great war galley of four hundred oars. Robs Hammer, as her oarsmen called her, would form the main strength of Myrcellas escort. Lionstar, Bold Wind, and Lady Lyanna would

sail with her as well.

**As part of several ships escorting a princess to... none other than Dorne. ^_^

Not only that, but Myrcella, like Lyanna, is a moon maiden - a royal maiden with moon imagery. Myrcella goes to Dorne where she is almost killed, and for the sake of metaphor, almost being killed and being killed serve the same purpose. It is the same imagery, all the way. The person who tries to kill her is darkstar - an obvious comet symbol. So, just as Solar King Rhaegar kills moon maiden Lyanna with his comet-Shiva Linga, moon maiden Myrcella is (almost) killed by Darkstar, who's sword shines in the moonlight during that scene, naturally. There's also a lot of talk about how crowning Myrcella and killing her is the same thing. Same could be said for Lyanna's crown of blue roses. Also in that Darkstar chapter, there's a sentence describing the moon "crowning the moon maid," which is a constellation.

The connection to Theon and "Esgred" is a fantastic catch and is no doubt intentional.

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I have always wondered with this thread, will the thread continue if we find out that R+L=J isn't true in The Winds of Winter or A Dream of Spring. Will people accept the new cannon if Jon's parents aren't Lyanna and Rhaegar? I am not trying to troll but it would be fascinating to me considering the years spent on this theory and the number of threads on the issue. And of course the reaction from the fan base would be very fascinating, many individuals would be shocked given their faith in a theory they now consider almost to be fact.

Edit:Spelling

I guess we'd rename the thread as X+Y=J and be busy dissecting the hints towards the new theory.

But given how closely parsed the old material is, I consider this highly unlikely.

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