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SFDanny

R+L=J v147

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Maege Mormont. Maester. Margaery Tyrell. I've got a list of 30 more so far but pretty sure anyone could do a search if they're so inclined. Unless you're suggesting Bael and Petyr Baelish are Valyrian?

It's an interesting spelling for the father in the other blue rose story in the series.

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Alys Karstark slipped her arm through Jon’s. “How much longer, Lord Snow? If I’m to be buried beneath this snow, I’d like to die a woman wed.


...


The snowflakes were melting on her cheeks, but her hair was wrapped in a swirl of lace that Satin had found somewhere, and the snow had begun to collect there, giving her a frosty crown. Her cheeks were flushed and red, and her eyes sparkled.

Winter’s lady.” Jon squeezed her hand.

The Magnar of Thenn stood waiting by the fire


when Prince Rhaegar Targaryen urged his horse past his own wife, the Dornish princess Elia Martell, to lay the queen of beauty’s laurel in Lyanna’s lap. He could see it still: a crown of winter roses, blue as frost.

...

Promise me, Ned, his sister had whispered from her bed of blood. She had loved the scent of winter roses.


Jon Snow could see his own reflection dimly inside the icy walls


A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness

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IceFire125, I picked up on that comparison too. It's more winter moon maiden marrying a solar king symbology, just like Rhaegar and Lyanna.

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I've seen some people defende that R+L=D and others defend that R+L=J. Is there any possibility that Jon and Daenerys could be brothers?

Probably not. ;)

ETA: although now that you mention it, speculating that so-and -so is actually hiding their gender is basically unplowed field as far as theory making.

I can "Daenerys = a man" getting a lot of clicks, although I don't know if I'd want to put my name on it.

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Nope. Jon is male, Dany is female. Jon is almost certainly the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna, Dany is the daughter of Aerys and Rhaella. Dany was born close to eight or nine months after Jon. Dany is Jon's younger aunt.

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Let's take a closer look at various Stark maidens' assocation with blue roses:

Sansa: nope

Arya: nope

unnamed Stark daughter: check

Lyanna: check

I fail to see how Stark maidens in general are supposed to be associated with blue roses when the two PoV maiden Stark characters are never, not once, associated with them. But, for the sake of an argument, let us presume that one might argue the case, for a single blue rose, or for blue roses as such. How about a garland(crown) of blue roses, though? The only candidate associated with them is Lyanna, and the only instant connecting her with them is her crowning at HH, thus bringing Rhaegar into the equation.

Also, it might be worth taking a look at the gradual development of Lyanna's connection to the said roses:

roses - blue roses - a garland of blue roses - the QoLaB crown

I tend to think that the general association of Lyanna with blue roses is merely a part of the whole (the garland)

Ah. Looks like someone got a Paint-By-Numbers edition. :cheers:

Seriously though, The two Stark girls with POVs are not associated with the blue roses? The Starks of Winterfell. The Winterfell where they grow blue roses. Winter roses as blue as frost. Northern roses. Hmmmmm.

And what of the blue flower in Daenerys' vision? No one is pegged into that hole yet. It could be past or future.

And yes, Lyanna has her blue roses, but what of it? Not following the single rose and multiple roses to queen of love and beauty.

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Disagree. There are many other parallels between Bael and Rhaegar which are not fulfilled by Gerold. The music, for one, and the fact that Rhaegar was the abductor, not Arthur, is kind of a big fly in your ointment there. Bael steals the girl and impregnates her, and the story we have is of Rhaegar stealing and impregnating Lyanna. Arhtur does not enter into any Bael comparisons.

Not really a fly, just a slight twist--for the standard Rhaegar scenario (assuming that's what you're going with), a lot of the basic plot of Bael has to be tweaked, reversed or changed. Rhaegar'd be with Arthur anyway, according to most scenarios I've seen of the "running off."

In my strictly hypothetical scenario--Rhaegar sings, Lyanna cries, Rhaegar gives rose crown (motives to be determined), Rhaegar and companions "take" Lyanna (context to be determined)--all roughly fits Bael story. Only change--affair switches to Arthur--perhaps a la Lancelot and Gwen. Then all the rest is the same. End result--Jon=blue rose in Wall of ice. Bael the Bard--tweaked. Like a lot of the parallels in the novels--they rarely go straight.

Fully agree that it isn't as smooth as the pure Rhaegar scenario. But it would get the end result. Will it happen this way? Probably not. But the books aren't done. They just aren't. And Martin has left himself room to maneuver, even with the symbolism.

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The broad strokes of the two stories, Bael and Rhaegar, are basically the same, as Ygrain said. What you did was fill in a lot of detail to make them sound different - I called that contortion, but pick whatever word you like. But the fact remains, the broad strokes are the same, and the blue rose ties both very similar stories together.

The Bael in Baelish may well be a shout out to Bael, since the abducting Stark maidens theme is there. That's a good catch, certainly. It would not be the first time (far from it) that George plays upon a story in different ways with different characters. But it still doesn't have anything to do with blue roses... Now, if BAELish had given Sansa a blue rose, then you'd absolutely have a point.

Failing that, the absence of blue roses anywhere except the specific places we find them speaks volumes.

How are Bael and Rhaegar the same? Bael was a wildling and a raider, and later a King, who scaled the Wall and stole the Stark Maiden. Years later he was slain by his own son. There is the tale of stealing a Stark maiden and a musician but the rest don't line up.

To the latter part of your post, there is the Marillion who also tries to take the Stark maiden, Sansa. Oh! Then there is Tom O'Sevens who captures Arya.

ETA to say these other guys; Bael, Tom, Marillion, even Mance are, definitely ladies men. They love the ladies. Rhaegar has not been painted in that light.

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I definitely agree that Martin tends to leave himself room to fulfill his foreshadowing in a variety of ways. And I understand the scenario you're proposing, but what's the evidence for it, symbolic or otherwise? I get that Lancelot is supposed to have a kid, that's a good place to start looking for things in the text to corroborated the hypothesis. I guess we'll see what the heretics can come up with for that scenario... And certainly the books aren't finished...

Still, we do not have anything close to a viable blue rose explanation other than Lyanna being Jon's mother. The fact that the blue roses appear nowhere else but the places they do is really hard to argue against, IMO.

My original point was this: RLJ been out 15 years, and still no convincing alternative to explain the clues and symbols has emerged. With all the smart people working on this... you get the idea. We'd have heard of it by now.

Then, we have the wealth of dragon and King imagery around Jon. We just talked about all the King stuff, with some really nice additions by IceFire125, but the dragon stuff is equally present. The heaviest imagery around Jon is the Azor Ahai / dragon imagery, often depicted in red and black, followed closely by his Other imagery, which I highlighted on the last RLJ thread. His blood is absolutely special, it's just what everyone says and what everyone is probably sick of hearing : he really is the union of fire and ice. The song of fire and ice.

Count me among those who think the Starks do have Other blood. It's literally everywhere when you start looking for it.

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I definitely agree that Martin tends to leave himself room to fulfill his foreshadowing in a variety of ways. And I understand the scenario you're proposing, but what's the evidence for it, symbolic or otherwise? I get that Lancelot is supposed to have a kid, that's a good place to start looking for things in the text to corroborated the hypothesis. I guess we'll see what the heretics can come up with for that scenario... And certainly the books aren't finished...

Still, we do not have anything close to a viable blue rose explanation other than Lyanna being Jon's mother. The fact that the blue roses appear nowhere else but the places they do is really hard to argue against, IMO.

My original point was this: RLJ been out 15 years, and still no convincing alternative to explain the clues and symbols has emerged. With all the smart people working on this... you get the idea. We'd have heard of it by now.

Then, we have the wealth of dragon and King imagery around Jon. We just talked about all the King stuff, with some really nice additions by IceFire125, but the dragon stuff is equally present. The heaviest imagery around Jon is the Azor Ahai / dragon imagery, often depicted in red and black, followed closely by his Other imagery, which I highlighted on the last RLJ thread. His blood is absolutely special, it's just what everyone says and what everyone is probably sick of hearing : he really is the union of fire and ice. The song of fire and ice.

Count me among those who think the Starks do have Other blood. It's literally everywhere when you start looking for it.

I'll leave my Lancelot and tower of joy ideas (not well groomed enough yet to be called theories) at the door. No worries. :)

And Rhaegar is currently my favorite for daddy. Fully agree on the dragon imagery--one of the reasons I lean so heavily towards RLJ--and the King imagery--and agree on the Starks' connection to the Others--something's up.

I just don't like throwing down on one theory re: an incomplete work. Just not my way of approaching a text. But we all read and enjoy texts differently--which is exactly how it should be. It's what makes all these conversations both fun and rewarding. So, I thank you for hearing me out. All good.

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How are Bael and Rhaegar the same? Bael was a wildling and a raider, and later a King, who scaled the Wall and stole the Stark Maiden. Years later he was slain by his own son. There is the tale of stealing a Stark maiden and a musician but the rest don't line up.

To the latter part of your post, there is the Marillion who also tries to take the Stark maiden, Sansa. Oh! Then there is Tom O'Sevens who captures Arya.

ETA to say these other guys; Bael, Tom, Marillion, even Mance are, definitely ladies men. They love the ladies. Rhaegar has not been painted in that light.

- a musician stole Lord Stark's only daughter and fathered a child on her while they were in hiding

- both the musician and the Stark daughter died tragically as a result of their affair

Really no similarity at all?

You added another connection, the King - Prince connection is there too. Mance was also a King. And then there is the blue roses, of course, specifically linking the Bale story to Lyanna.

As to other stolen Stark maidens, show me some blue roses near them and I would agree that they have a meaning that is not confined to Lyanna. The fact that none of them do simply strengthens the interpretation of them as being specific to Lyanna.

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I definitely agree that Martin tends to leave himself room to fulfill his foreshadowing in a variety of ways. And I understand the scenario you're proposing, but what's the evidence for it, symbolic or otherwise? I get that Lancelot is supposed to have a kid, that's a good place to start looking for things in the text to corroborated the hypothesis. I guess we'll see what the heretics can come up with for that scenario... And certainly the books aren't finished...

Still, we do not have anything close to a viable blue rose explanation other than Lyanna being Jon's mother. The fact that the blue roses appear nowhere else but the places they do is really hard to argue against, IMO.

My original point was this: RLJ been out 15 years, and still no convincing alternative to explain the clues and symbols has emerged. With all the smart people working on this... you get the idea. We'd have heard of it by now.

Then, we have the wealth of dragon and King imagery around Jon. We just talked about all the King stuff, with some really nice additions by IceFire125, but the dragon stuff is equally present. The heaviest imagery around Jon is the Azor Ahai / dragon imagery, often depicted in red and black, followed closely by his Other imagery, which I highlighted on the last RLJ thread. His blood is absolutely special, it's just what everyone says and what everyone is probably sick of hearing : he really is the union of fire and ice. The song of fire and ice.

Count me among those who think the Starks do have Other blood. It's literally everywhere when you start looking for it.

Umm i didn't know that there was a concensus on this being convincing. Symbolism is effective moreso when we take into consideration the context.I think in a way you are confounding the arguements a bit.

If the arguement concludes blue rose equates Jon Snow then we have a bit of a problem.

From the Bael story the Blue rose doen't signify a baby or a maiden.At it's core it signifies exactly what Bael took which was the Stark girl's Maiden head. Which like the Winter rose was rare because she was the only daughter and only child.He didn't kidnap her because per Ygritte's story she never left the castle.The only thing he took was her virginity.

If we are to put real world applications to this There's a reason why taking a girl's viginity in and out of the story is called "deflowering" it comes from the fact that before a girl's Hymen is broken it looks like and inverted flower.Flowers in and out of myth is a very sexual symbol when it comes to females its that particular connection.

We have now a base meaning and cultural relevance within the story which is futher validated by Brandon and Ned's reaction at the tourney. The blue rose of its own means many things to us outside the story yes, but when it comes to the story and this particular family what does it mean to them?What does it mean to the Starks but a daughter that was deflowered.

“, but the old chronicles of Winterfell say nothing of him (Bael). Whether this was due to the defeats and humiliation he was said to have visited upon them (including, according to one improbable story deflowering a Stark maiden and getting her with child) WB pg, 149.”

So again i ask what was Rhaegar saying with that little stunt of his,why were the Starks upset?What cord did that gesture strike in their cultural memory?

SDanny thanks for the real world meaning of the Blue rose though its not really completed or the context expressed in full. A blue rose can signify many things including;unrequited love,love at first sight,manipulation,a figment of one's imagination and something that is not real.The latter being the most prominent meaning on account of the blue rose not naturally occurring in nature.It is man made hence it's association mostly with being something that is unreal.

For this reason i wouldn't hang my hat so much on the specific meaning of the blue rose outside the story because its sooooooo much you can get from it.

I agree there is a lot of king imagery around Jon but its important to discuss exactly what that King imagery is. King on the iron throne or something else.I disagree with the Dragon imagery around Jon.Jon his heavy on the solar king aspect and for those of you that maybe Pagan the mythical theme surrounding Jon is in your face and GRRM use of it is pretty blatant.If you get the myth you will get who Jon,Lyanna and Rhaegar mirrors and who his father might be .

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You added another connection, the King - Prince connection is there too. Mance was also a King. And then there is the blue roses, of course, specifically linking the Bale story to Lyanna.

As to other stolen Stark maidens, show me some blue roses near them and I would agree that they have a meaning that is not confined to Lyanna. The fact that none of them do simply strengthens the interpretation of them as being specific to Lyanna.

Bael was a king and Rhaegar never was. A prince is not a king.

I don't recall any blue roses with the pov Stark girls. My point was they are connected to blue roses because they are daughters of Winterfell where the blue roses are grown in the glass gardens. And dont forget the Stark who Bael stole. The men I mentioned with Sansa and Arya are just cool parralels. Yet one of these "bards" are not like the other.

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Umm i didn't know that there was a concensus on this being convincing. Symbolism is effective moreso when we take into consideration the context.I think in a way you are confounding the arguements a bit.

If the arguement concludes blue rose equates Jon Snow then we have a bit of a problem.

From the Bael story the Blue rose doen't signify a baby or a maiden.At it's core it signifies exactly what Bael took which was the Stark girl's Maiden head. Which like the Winter rose was rare because she was the only daughter and only child.He didn't kidnap her because per Ygritte's story she never left the castle.The only thing he took was her virginity.

If we are to put real world applications to this There's a reason why taking a girl's viginity in and out of the story is called "deflowering" it comes from the fact that before a girl's Hymen is broken it looks like and inverted flower.Flowers in and out of myth is a very sexual symbol when it comes to females its that particular connection.

We have now a base meaning and cultural relevance within the story which is futher validated by Brandon and Ned's reaction at the tourney. The blue rose of its own means many things to us outside the story yes, but when it comes to the story and this particular family what does it mean to them?What does it mean to the Starks but a daughter that was deflowered.

“, but the old chronicles of Winterfell say nothing of him (Bael). Whether this was due to the defeats and humiliation he was said to have visited upon them (including, according to one improbable story deflowering a Stark maiden and getting her with child) WB pg, 149.”

So again i ask what was Rhaegar saying with that little stunt of his,why were the Starks upset?What cord did that gesture strike in their cultural memory?

SDanny thanks for the real world meaning of the Blue rose though its not really completed or the context expressed in full. A blue rose can signify many things including;unrequited love,love at first sight,manipulation,a figment of one's imagination and something that is not real.The latter being the most prominent meaning on account of the blue rose not naturally occurring in nature.It is man made hence it's association mostly with being something that is unreal.

For this reason i wouldn't hang my hat so much on the specific meaning of the blue rose outside the story because its sooooooo much you can get from it.

I agree there is a lot of king imagery around Jon but its important to discuss exactly what that King imagery is. King on the iron throne or something else.I disagree with the Dragon imagery around Jon.Jon his heavy on the solar king aspect and for those of you that maybe Pagan the mythical theme surrounding Jon is in your face and GRRM use of it is pretty blatant.If you get the myth you will get who Jon,Lyanna and Rhaegar mirrors and who his father might be .

There are many interpretations in the real world, yes, and clearly many of them are at play - that was quite a lovely explanation you gave of the flower symbolism. My point is that Martin is only using is very specific places, which makes it an identifying symbol. If it were used for other Stark girls besides Lyanna and the one maiden who directly parallels Lyanna via the Bael story, then I would agree it's being used more broadly. But the usage is so specific.

Jon is dripping with dragon and Azor Ahai imagery. Azor Ahai was both a solar king and a dragon, as was Rhaegar. Whether he actually became King or not does not matter in this sense - he was in line to be King. The solar King pattern of ASOIAF is one sun, two moons, ice and fire. One solar king - Aegon, Rhaegar, and now Jon - have taken ir impregnated a fire bride, then an ice bride. I've done an extensive analysis of Visenya and Rhaenys; Visenya is all ice and Rhaenys fire. George makes this really clear in TWOIAF ( I have an essay coming on this). Jon takes or "steals" Ygriite, and then does something symbolically similar with Val, as Juliah H pointed out on my thread yesterday. Point is, solar king = dragon king in the cases of these three.

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I've seen some people defende that R+L=D and others defend that R+L=J. Is there any possibility that Jon and Daenerys could be brothers?

They could be brother/sister or even twins...

The SSM that mentions 8-9 months between Jon & Dany's birth has some very tricky wording... I would not close the door on them being twins...

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Where did we see the blue rose? In a chink in the Wall. At sundown, in ADWD, Jon looks at the cracks in the Wall, which are flowing with meltwater, and see an interesting optical illusion:


Jon Snow turned away. The last light of the sun had begun to fade. He watched the cracks along the Wall go from red to grey to black, from streaks of fire to rivers of black ice. Down below, Lady Melisandre would be lighting her nightfire and chanting, Lord of Light, defend us, for the night is dark and full of terrors . “Winter is coming,” Jon said at last, breaking the awkward silence, “and with it the white walkers. The Wall is where we stop them. The Wall was made to stop them … but the Wall must be manned.

JON, ADWD
The Wall is manned by Jon, dressed in the black ice and wielding red fire:

That night he dreamt of wildlings howling from the woods, advancing to the moan of warhorns and the roll of drums. Boom DOOM boom DOOM boom DOOM came the sound, a thousand hearts with a single beat. Some had spears and some had bows and some had axes. Others rode on chariots made of bones, drawn by teams of dogs as big as ponies. Giants lumbered amongst them, forty feet tall, with mauls the size of oak trees. “Stand fast,” Jon Snow called. “Throw them back.” He stood atop the Wall, alone. “Flame,” he cried, “feed them flame,” but there was no one to pay heed. They are all gone. They have abandoned me . Burning shafts hissed upward, trailing tongues of fire. Scarecrow brothers tumbled down, black cloaks ablaze. “Snow,” an eagle cried, as foemen scuttled up the ice like spiders. Jon was armored in black ice, but his blade burned red in his fist. As the dead men reached the top of the Wall he sent them down to die again. He slew a greybeard and a beardless boy, a giant, a gaunt man with filed teeth, a girl with thick red hair. Too late he recognized Ygritte. She was gone as quick as she’d appeared. The world dissolved into a red mist. Jon stabbed and slashed and cut. He hacked down Donal Noye and gutted Deaf Dick Follard. Qhorin Halfhand stumbled to his knees, trying in vain to staunch the flow of blood from his neck. “I am the Lord of Winterfell,” Jon screamed. It was Robb before him now, his hair wet with melting snow. Longclaw took his head off. Then a gnarled hand seized Jon roughly by the shoulder. He whirled … … and woke with a raven pecking at his chest. “Snow,” the bird cried.
Not only is Jon dressed in black ice and wielding red fire, he's doing the exact things that both Azor Ahai and the Bloodstone Emperor (who I think are the same person) do. Azor Ahai murders his love with a red fire sword, just as Jon does. I probably don't have to tell you Ygritte is dripping in moon maiden imagery. Then he usurps the throne of his sibling, again with murder. That's exactly what the Bloodstone Emperor did.

Azor Ahai literally tranlates to something like"fire dragon." The Asshai were the original dragonlords... and that's where Azor Ahai comes from. This is all very dragon-y.

Are you hip to all the Mithras stuff around Jon? I mean it might be one of the most directly pulled influences incorporated into ASOIAF. Have you read Schmendrick's R+L=Lightbringer? Everyone should read that, especially anyone interested in Jon or RLJ. One of the best ever. Anyway, Mithras is solar associated AND dragon associated, and that's the case for Azor Ahai, Jon, Rhaegar, Aegon the Conqueror, etc.
ETA: I would never presume to speak for any sort of supposed consensus. I only speak for myself.

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There are many interpretations in the real world, yes, and clearly many of them are at play - that was quite a lovely explanation you gave of the flower symbolism. My point is that Martin is only using is very specific places, which makes it an identifying symbol. If it were used for other Stark girls besides Lyanna and the one maiden who directly parallels Lyanna via the Bael story, then I would agree it's being used more broadly. But the usage is so specific.

Jon is dripping with dragon and Azor Ahai imagery. Azor Ahai was both a solar king and a dragon, as was Rhaegar. Whether he actually became King or not does not matter in this sense - he was in line to be King. The solar King pattern of ASOIAF is one sun, two moons, ice and fire. One solar king - Aegon, Rhaegar, and now Jon - have taken ir impregnated a fire bride, then an ice bride. I've done an extensive analysis of Visenya and Rhaenys; Visenya is all ice and Rhaenys fire. George makes this really clear in TWOIAF ( I have an essay coming on this). Jon takes or "steals" Ygriite, and then does something symbolically similar with Val, as Juliah H pointed out on my thread yesterday. Point is, solar king = dragon king in the cases of these three.

To the first part i agree and have no problems with that but seeing as we have two books to go we can't say for surety what the blue flower growing out of the Wall means.But what i will say is i doubt from the imagery that the blue rose is Jon Snow.

As for the red bolded the solar king pattern for ASOIAF isn't limited to your explanation,especially when other myths have been found that explains this perfectly.

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It's true that roses have a feminine association, no doubt. But this can easily still apply to Jon, who has Stark blood through his mother; female line. Also, I'm not so sure how hung up I'd get on the flower = female idea in a series that is partially inspired by the Wars of the Roses.



Promise me, she had cried, in a room that smelled of blood and roses. Promise me, Ned.


We know what the blood means -- bed of blood, which means birthing bed -- and we know what the roses mean. Blood and roses = Lyanna gave birth to Rhaegar's child.


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Where did we see the blue rose? In a chink in the Wall. At sundown, in ADWD, Jon looks at the cracks in the Wall, which are flowing with meltwater, and see an interesting optical illusion:

Jon Snow turned away. The last light of the sun had begun to fade. He watched the cracks along the Wall go from red to grey to black, from streaks of fire to rivers of black ice. Down below, Lady Melisandre would be lighting her nightfire and chanting, Lord of Light, defend us, for the night is dark and full of terrors . “Winter is coming,” Jon said at last, breaking the awkward silence, “and with it the white walkers. The Wall is where we stop them. The Wall was made to stop them … but the Wall must be manned.

JON, ADWD
The Wall is manned by Jon, dressed in the black ice and wielding red fire:

That night he dreamt of wildlings howling from the woods, advancing to the moan of warhorns and the roll of drums. Boom DOOM boom DOOM boom DOOM came the sound, a thousand hearts with a single beat. Some had spears and some had bows and some had axes. Others rode on chariots made of bones, drawn by teams of dogs as big as ponies. Giants lumbered amongst them, forty feet tall, with mauls the size of oak trees. “Stand fast,” Jon Snow called. “Throw them back.” He stood atop the Wall, alone. “Flame,” he cried, “feed them flame,” but there was no one to pay heed. They are all gone. They have abandoned me . Burning shafts hissed upward, trailing tongues of fire. Scarecrow brothers tumbled down, black cloaks ablaze. “Snow,” an eagle cried, as foemen scuttled up the ice like spiders. Jon was armored in black ice, but his blade burned red in his fist. As the dead men reached the top of the Wall he sent them down to die again. He slew a greybeard and a beardless boy, a giant, a gaunt man with filed teeth, a girl with thick red hair. Too late he recognized Ygritte. She was gone as quick as she’d appeared. The world dissolved into a red mist. Jon stabbed and slashed and cut. He hacked down Donal Noye and gutted Deaf Dick Follard. Qhorin Halfhand stumbled to his knees, trying in vain to staunch the flow of blood from his neck. “I am the Lord of Winterfell,” Jon screamed. It was Robb before him now, his hair wet with melting snow. Longclaw took his head off. Then a gnarled hand seized Jon roughly by the shoulder. He whirled … … and woke with a raven pecking at his chest. “Snow,” the bird cried.

Not only is Jon dressed in black ice and wielding red fire, he's doing the exact things that both Azor Ahai and the Bloodstone Emperor (who I think are the same person) do. Azor Ahai murders his love with a red fire sword, just as Jon does. I probably don't have to tell you Ygritte is dripping in moon maiden imagery. Then he usurps the throne of his sibling, again with murder. That's exactly what the Bloodstone Emperor did.

Azor Ahai literally tranlates to something like"fire dragon." The Asshai were the original dragonlords... and that's where Azor Ahai comes from. This is all very dragon-y.

Are you hip to all the Mithras stuff around Jon? I mean it might be one of the most directly pulled influences incorporated into ASOIAF. Have you read Schmendrick's R+L=Lightbringer? Everyone should read that, especially anyone interested in Jon or RLJ. One of the best ever. Anyway, Mithras is solar associated AND dragon associated, and that's the case for Azor Ahai, Jon, Rhaegar, Aegon the Conqueror, etc.

ETA: I would never presume to speak for any sort of supposed consensus. I only speak for myself.

Yeah i am hip to the Mithras imagery surrounding Jon,i get all the king myths surrounding Jon.Hence the reason i can say Jon has many paths he can follow.I could say i have an idea but because i recognize most the myths GRRM has used Its still a toss up where he'll go,But its most likely going to end with Jon being a sacrifice.

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