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SFDanny

R+L=J v147

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Wrong. We arrived at the conclusion that Rhaegar was the father.

A. Based on RLJ v 1 that's not what i took away.

Ok i will ask where is evidence that there was a relationship between them Ygrain? The logical case would be to show the possibility that a relationship between them was mutual.Don't you thing? Seeing as we are 5 books in,there must be something to indicate that there was a little "somtin somtin"Nothing but yet you all jumped to the conclusion that Rhaegar fathered Lya's baby?

I do believe that it was a romantic gesture on Rhaegar's part, and about the furthest that he would have gone, had Elia been able to birth a third child,(Re think this Ygrain) but it is possible that others are right and that there was no romance back then, only a recognition of Lyanna's valour as KotLT. However, the way the QoLaB crown recurs means that even if it was not a romantic gesture, it was one that had a huge impact on Lyanna's fate

A. Ygrain i agree with that 100%,it did have an impact on her fate.

Oh? The girl disappeared from her bed in her father's house, that's not kidnapping? The fact that they were hiding nearby=/=never left. They were just, uh, hiding in almost plain sight. We say, it's darkest under the candlestick.

A.No we can't say it was kidnapping the tale goes she never left. He could have banged her in her bed and then left,one night stand.She could have been waiting for someone who just wanted a one night stand.She could have bolted because she was ashamed.she was just hiding,who was she hiding from and why?

And you know that how? And why did she committed suicide after Bael's death?

A.Because her son killed his father who she convinced herself she loved.....and? We know this happened atleast so the tale goes.In the case of Lya we can't say she loved Rhaegar.Maybe she did,maybe she didn't where's the proof Lyanna loved Rhaegar?

Perhaps. (That's the point isn't it) But that doesn't exclude other motivation, especially concerning the daughter.( There was no motivation,we get from the tale that she "loved" him,He took her viginity ,could it be a repeat? Maybe,maybe not).

No idea what you are talking about here. What question, and what meaning?( You already answered)

If you mean that especially Brandon took an offence at it, we are all aware of that. Note, though, that we don't have Lyanna's reaction, but we know that she clutched dried roses even on her deathbed. Most possibly, blue roses, perhaps even the crown itself. Doesn't look exactly like something that she was ashamed of.

A.Brandon had to be restrained and Ned though calm was not pleased.Ned took the Crown from Lya's lap so she didn't touch it.Really? the text said they were dried or just dead and black? Did the text say it was blue,did it say it was the crown?Ahh your guessing .You are making a connection that isn't there Ygrain.A better guess is someone who knew Lya liked flowers/roses was bringing them to her or brought them to her or she was near a place that had these blooming.Given Ned'sstatement of the room smelling of blood and roses.I'd go with it being a bit more fresh.

Lyanna from the same cultural background did a lot of things that she was not supposed to do; what makes you think she would conform in this particular case?

Ygrain this isn't a case of conforming,its a case of percieved insults from a cultural perspective of a particular group of people.How was she suppose to take it? Especially if it was intentional.

Ygrain you don't get .You are super imposing a conclusion on the narrative and don't realize you are doing it.Its in your entire answer to me.Atleast that's what i'm getting.My answers are above.

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Fair point--Ned doesn't correct him.

But, why Ned would cover it up? RLJ does make sense re: lie, even though it isn't stated why Ned isn't stating who Jon's mother is.

But still think there's evidence to suggest Ned would cover it up, if Lyanna asked him to, no matter the reason. So, the cover-up can't be proof per se. Suggestive, yes. Even supportive--but absolute proof? No.

Actually Sly Wren you had it rigt the first time.Robert said Ned told him once,meaning Ned must have given Robert Wylla's name upon request.So he lied,Robert just forgot the name after how many years of being told it.

Ned just reminded him of what he told him once before.

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It must have grated against Ned lying to his friends, his king, his wife and the whole of the Seven Kingdoms.


I think thats why he was so reluctant about talking about it as much as the need for secrecy,


like when he snapped at Cat or when he Told Robbert he would speak no more of it.


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The bottom line is that no convincing alternate to RLJ exists.

Convincing...What does it take to convince?

Have you honestly looked another alternative?

Have you honestly looked at the "support" for RLJ?

I say "convincing" because there is no size able support for any alternate theory.

Support does not make a theory convincing or not... It also does not make it right.

Even the anti-RLJ'ers cannot agree on what is the next most likely scenario.

or facts... or what is in the text... or where the books end and fan fiction begins... or what canon is..

There is no other strong case.

Is the strength of case based solely on popularity?

Cases based on reason and text are stronger than those that are based on fabrication and popular opinion.

.There is no case that has gained any traction with the thousands and even million of people scrutinizing ASOIAF

Read and repeat apparently passes for scrutiny...

Still the support of a theory does not make it valid....

All attempts to explain the blue rose =/= RLJ, including very good efforts by folks on this thread, have fallen short. Far short.

One cannot prove a negative.... explain how the blue rose (actually a flower) does not equal Sam Tarly.... it can't be done.

You can provide a stronger case as an alternative, that does nothing to explain why he is not.

Was there a point in there anywhere? I didn't see one. The blue rose does not symbolize Sam Tarly's because Sam never appears next to or with a blue rose.

Is this the level of analysis you're bringing to the conversation? Really?

It's not about which theory is the most popular - it's about the lack of ANY even slightly popular alternative theory to RLJ. If it exists, put it forward!! But you won't, and you can't, because it isn't out there. The anti-RLJ conversations always end here - with the RLJ crowd asking for an alternative, and the anti-RLJ crowd refusing to provide one.

Yes, I have considered the evidence etc etc. I basically am engaged in a non-stop audiobook re-read of the entire series, ever since I started my astronomy theory five months ago. I also have many great reasons to want Jon to be a Dayne. But there just isn't evidence for it.

All of the alternates die at the altar of the blue rose. I have yet to see anyone show how this rose can mean anything but something specific to Lyanna.

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LMLB the idea that the explanation of the blue rose has fallen short is YOUR opinion. I believe my explanation is very very valid considering where it could lead.When I say there is a propensity to confound the arguement here I mean that.

You guys are already working from the conclusion that Rhaegar is Jon's father and what he did was some romantic gesture.So every arguement relies on an element in dispute.Let me explain further.

What we know from the legend. Bael did not kidnap the Stark maiden, she never left.

what he did take was her virginity unasked.He deflowered so he replaced what he took with something he considered just as rare. His reasons for his actions was to humiliate Lord Stark

We have cultural context for the Starks so again why was Brandon and Ned displeased with Rhaegar's gesture? What was he saying to them by doing that to Lya?

To this moment none of you have answered an honest question.That is a perfect meaning for the rose because that's basically what the story is saying.

This has nothing to do with Jon Snow directly, but its part of a dialogue that explains what happened. So for you to act the authority on what is solid or not is just amazing. I do not find the assertion that Jon Snow equates Blue rose at all convincing.The reasoning behind it is flawed.

One incident with the blue rose has a cultural bearing on another and it is a shameful one, but you guys ....wow you dont see that in the larger picture!!!!

You all see Bael actions and use Rhaegar's actions to explain it.instead of the other way around.You look at Bael's actions and not the root, you look at Rhaegar's actions and think it can only mean something romantic when the original wasn't even that. It was about humiliation. Lastly, you no one is considering why the Starks were upset and that Lya coming from the sam cultural mindset would BE pleased?

LMLB you haven't seen all the arguements.I have seen some of late that are much better.You all at times weigh down the evidence with things that aren't evidence, or maybe means something else.

And you LMLB I dig you but seriously dude you are not sn authority on this you are one voice in a sea of thousands.You have an opinion, I have an opinion. You say you haven't seen any evidence that explains the blue rose I just gave you one. Without superimposing any conclusion except letting the evidence speak.

King Monkey I am looking forward to your essay.

Your observations about the rose are astute, but it does not take the symbol away from Lyanna. It does imply those things you suggest - but the fact that the blue rose is used nowhere else but around Lyanna, Jon, and this Bael story which is a direct reflection of Lyanna's story indicates that it is specific to Lyanna! All the arguments about a more generic meaning that could apply to other maidens falls flat because it is NOT APPLIED TO OTHER MAIDENS.

Ergo, the blue rose is till specific to Lyanna, and the presence of it at the Wall must relate back to Lyanna somehow.

Everything that I say is my opinion only - are we really back to that?

My point was that no alternative theory to RLJ has gained even the smallest bit of traction. If there was a credible alternate, it would have some amount of support. Ten percent, let's say. Something. But it just isn't the case. Even the folks who are invested in RLJ not being true, for whatever reason, have not been able to even offer an alternative. In fact, that is why many RLJ deniers absolutely flip out when you demand an alternative - many insist that they simply want to argue RLJ is not true or may not be true without providing an alternative theory. That's really quite lame, after months and months and years go by.

Nobody can explain away the blue roses as not being specific to Lyanna. Am I wrong? Prove me wrong then. So far, nobody has. They are only used around Lyanna, Jon, and the Bael story.

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Why can't Jon be one of Robert Baratheon's bastards?



Or why isn't Jon the child of Robert Baratheon and Lyanna?


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Why can't Jon be one of Robert Baratheon's bastards?

Or why isn't Jon the child of Robert Baratheon and Lyanna?

Because Robert didn't find Lyanna with Rhaegar, have sex with her, and then leave her with Rhaegar in the year or so after she was abducted.

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Because Robert didn't find Lyanna with Rhaegar, have sex with her, and then leave her with Rhaegar in the year or so after she was abducted.

Why couldn't Robert have impregnated her before Rhaegar stole her? How do we know he kidnapped her for more than 9 months?

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Why couldn't Robert have impregnated her before Rhaegar stole her? How do we know he kidnapped her for more than 9 months?

The war lasted more than 9 months.

Lyanna was kidnapped by R and If i recall it's what triggered the war, Brandon went to kings landing and ran his mouth and got arrested,

Rickard was called to kings landing.. they both died

Jon Arryn refused to hand over robbert and ned and called his banners.

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It must have grated against Ned lying to his friends, his king, his wife and the whole of the Seven Kingdoms.

I think thats why he was so reluctant about talking about it as much as the need for secrecy,

like when he snapped at Cat or when he Told Robbert he would speak no more of it.

We even have evidence that the maids/men at Winterfell were told to shut up about their gossip about Ashara (from Cat AGoT). And even that Harwin, many years later, urges Arya (ASOS Arya VIII) to keep discussion about Ashara from Cat.

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"How do we know this?" is what I asked.

Apart from GRRM stating it in interviews, there are a number of happenings in the books between Lyanna and Rhaegar's disappearance (Brandon goes to KL to play the fool, King Aerys summons Rickard Stark and his 200 northmen and starts roasting, strangling and burning 'em, then sends word demanding Ned and Robert Baratheons heads. Now the Robellion starts, Robert fights the battle of Gulltown, travels to Storm's End, calls his banners, rides to Summerhall, fights three battles and returns with the captives to hunt in Storm's end. Next he besieges Ashford in the Reach, loses his first battle there and flees. Only then Tarly, Redwyne and Tyrell start a whole year of besieging Storm's End. Skip over most of the war for it matters not for the length of it all).

After that year Ned relieves Storm's End, then rides to the Tower of Joy where he finally finds Lyanna and somehow also finds Jon.

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"How do we know this?" is what I asked.

Eddard II AGoT "The war had raged for close to a year"

We don't know how he was measuring that time from event to event, however

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All of the traveling from one part of Westeros to another part would have been very time consuming,


Sorry i was off track a little bit but Ned stated it and so did GRRM also Brandon Ned's brother died in 282AC and Ser Arthur died at the tower of joy in 283AC at the end of the war.


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After that year Ned relieves Storm's End, then rides to the Tower of Joy where he finally finds Lyanna and somehow also finds Jon.

Ok then, how do we know Jon wasn't born and living during the war? He could have been alive for some time before Ned picked him up.

Also I thought Ned found Jon at a different place than where he found Lyanna correct?

Lyanna could have given birth to Robert's child Jon during the war. Hidden him away with some other family to keep him safe from Rhaegar. And then asked Ned to promise to protect Jon from the Mad King.

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"How do we know this?" is what I asked.

Because the text stated that the war raged for about a year.

Ygrain you don't get .You are super imposing a conclusion on the narrative and don't realize you are doing it.Its in your entire answer to me.Atleast that's what i'm getting.My answers are above.

What am I superimposing? The fact that in Ned's first memory, there is Lyanna with unspecified roses, whereas later it is always and exclusively blue roses, so that kinda makes sense that those roses from the first memory were also blue because never, not once, does Ned think about any other roses in connection with Lyanna?

And, yes, perceiving the crowning as an insult on Lyanna's part is conforming - that's what the males think. Their sister is betrothed, hence no other man is allowed to express interest in her. For the very life of me, I cannot understand why the sister shouldn't have an agenda of her own and think, screw the manners, I am enjoying this. Kinda like Scarlett dancing with Rhett even though as a widow, she wasn't supposed to.

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Ok then, how do we know Jon wasn't born and living with Lyanna during the war? He could have been alive for some time before Ned picked him up.

Again the easy way is to refer to the Chronology SSM where GRRM basically says Jon was born more or less around the time of the Sack of King's Landing - that's what happens right before Ned leaves to relieve Storm's End from siege.

In the text it is a bit more difficult to show. In the omission from my above post, at the time of the siege, there was the Battle of the Bells at Stony Sept. Shortly after that Ned marries Catelyn and Robb Stark is concieved, will be born 9 months later.

We learn that Robb and Jon are pretty much of an age. That's all we have got.

Also I thought Ned found Jon at a different place than where he found Lyanna correct?

Why do you think so? Some esteemed posters imagined it may have been so but have so far failed to show hints in the books.

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Ok then, how do we know Jon wasn't born and living during the war? He could have been alive for some time before Ned picked him up.

Also I thought Ned found Jon at a different place than where he found Lyanna correct?

Lyanna could have given birth to Robert's child Jon during the war. Hidden him away with some other family to keep him safe from Rhaegar. And then asked Ned to promise to protect Jon from the Mad King.

It is unknown whether Jon and Lyanna were at the same place or not. It is known, though, per GRRM's word, that Jon was born 8-9 months before Dany, and Dany's birthdate is also known, 9 months after the Sack.

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