R+L=J v147

[TheSmallOther]

And anyone who does is going to have to start with explaining why Hightower would willingly fight alongside Dayne, after he had broken so many of those precious KG oaths.

Don't want to go into any of theories regarding Dayne's role at the moment. But I'd like to add that Hightower doesn't have any real choice. They have the orders and they have to obey, like it or not. They do not have to like each other, but they have to fight together. Barristan Selmy clearly doesn't like Jaime (who failed the main oath of KG), still they both serve Robert.

[Consigliere]

Of course Hightower had a choice. He, and the rest of the KG, are not robots. Given what little we know about Hightower, it seems very unlikely that he would have fought and died alongside Dayne had Arthur broken his KG vows.

Also, as Lucifer means Lightbringer pointed out in the previous thread: the symbolism points to RLJ and none of the alternatives even come close to adequately explaining the blue rose symbolism.

[The Twinslayer]

"Bastards are not allowed to damage young princes," he said. "Any bruises they take in the practice yard must come from trueborn swords."

"Kings are a rare sight in the north."

Robert snorted. "More likely they were hiding under the snow. Snow, Ned!"

How can any alternative theory other than Rhaegar being the father of Jon explain above quotes or countless others in A King in Hiding threads?

There is some irony to the fact that Tommen, a bastard, is whacking away at Bran, the future prince, while this is happening. Right before Jon delivers that line, we get:

To her disappointment, it was the younger boys drilling.

This is followed by a description of the scene where Robb and Theon are cheering for Bran.

Prince Joffrey... Later king Joffrey must not be bruised by the sword of Jon, the bastard of Winterfell...

To imply or state any different requires the speaker know of the twincest and Jon was a prince. (Even if RLJ is true and Jon is legitimate, Jon was never a prince. He was a king at birth.)

We do not need a theory to explain it... we need context,

Robert--Where are all your people?

"Likely they are too shy to come out." Ned jested...

"Kings are a rare sight in the north."

Robert snorted. "More likely they were hiding under the snow. Snow, Ned!"

People, is the antecedent of "they." "Kings" is not....

The "hiding" quote is often truncated, but when you add the context it is clear that, if Jon is the one hiding from King Robert, Jon is one of the ordinary people and not royalty.

[stateofdissipation]

There is a HUGE difference: Aerys is the King. Arthur is not. Fighting for Aerys and not judging the KING shows how seriously Hightower took his vows as a member of the KG. Arthur, if Jon's father, was a KG oathbreaker having abandoned his king, sleeping with a woman, and fathering a child, all while the King in question lost his realm. Hightower wouldn't have fought alongside that level of oathbreaking.

Arthur and Hightower fought an enemy of Aerys.... it is hard to assert that either had abandoned Aerys

If Arthur abandoned Aerys, so did Hightower..

Hightower commanded prince Martell as well....

It's claimed that Prince Lewyn Martell kept a paramour, a great beauty in her day, while he was in the Kingsguard (IV: 193)

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/Concordance/Section/2.1.3.2./

Selmy gives us that kingsguard were prey to lust--aDwD page 855

The only incident were a kingsguard was punished for sex was when the sex was with the King's mistress.

So sex is apparently not a capital offense in general... Sex also makes babies..

Using a sarcastic statement from Jamie to characterize Hightowers devotion to his vows... is more than a stretch... it is Olympic level mental gymnastics.

[Adaneth]

If Robert was sitting the throne before Jon's birth, Jon is not royalty. Seeing as everything points to Robert already being king by the time of Jon's birth Jon cannot be royalty. You don't get to be royalty, if your family is no longer royalty.

IMO, whether Jon was royalty or not, or R+L bastard, when he was born, will not matter at all in the story. I don't think we're gonna see Jon sitting in the IT, and if he does he will take it. It will not be given to him because of who his parents are/were.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Using a sarcastic statement from Jamie to characterize Hightowers devotion to his vows... is more than a stretch... it is Olympic level mental gymnastics.

How is that statement sarcastic? Do tell..

[stateofdissipation]

How is that statement sarcastic? Do tell..

“As for Lord Rickard, the steel of his breastplate turned cherry-red before the end, and his gold melted off his spurs and dripped down into the fire. I stood at the foot of the Iron Throne in my white armor and white cloak, filling my head with thoughts of Cersei. After, Gerold Hightower himself took me aside and said to me, ‘You swore a vow to guard the king, not to judge him.’ That was the White Bull, loyal to the end and a better man than me, all agree.” —ACOK

The passage in question...

[Vee Stark]

R+ L = J is going to have a million volumes

:wacko:

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

“As for Lord Rickard, the steel of his breastplate turned cherry-red before the end, and his gold melted off his spurs and dripped down into the fire. I stood at the foot of the Iron Throne in my white armor and white cloak, filling my head with thoughts of Cersei. After, Gerold Hightower himself took me aside and said to me, ‘You swore a vow to guard the king, not to judge him.’ That was the White Bull, loyal to the end and a better man than me, all agree.” —ACOK

The passage in question...

I know the passage.. Quoting it is not explaining how you find its final statement a sarcastic one.

Jaime explains what happened to Rickard, and tells how the LC of the KG told him not to judge Aerys for this, and ends with the statement that people consider Gerold to have been a better man than Jaime is, and how Gerold was loyal until the end.

[Lord Varys]

Jaime would have to know what exactly happened to Ser Gerold in the end to make such a statement. He would only know that he was 'loyal to the end' if he actually knew what happened in the end. Since we don't know how exactly how he died yet it is a big stretch to take Jaime's word about anything that happened at the tower. Surely neither Ned Stark nor Howland Reed ever talked to Jaime Lannister about what happened there. Thus Jaime wouldn't know for sure whether Hightower remained loyal to the end.

I read Jaime's claim as a statement about Hightower's apparent mindset as Jaime judged it to be up to the point they permanently parted ways - that is, when Hightower left KL to find Rhaegar. Whether Jaime's opinion actually gives us the true picture of the man is a completely different question. Surely Ser Gerold wasn't confiding in Jaime if he had any doubts about Aerys' state of mind and whether their oath applied to a king who was completely nuts/giving inconsistent orders, etc. That would only have encouraged Jaime's own doubts - doubts that were apparently pretty obvious to his sworn brothers.

Considering that Gerold failed to protect his king from Tywin and Jaime in the end describing him as 'loyal to the end' may not even refer to the king. Hightower would have been able to return to the capital had he been Aerys' man until the end. But he could have been loyal to Rhaegar to the end - Jaime doesn't specify to whom Hightower was loyal, after all.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Lord Varys,

Surely, no one blames Arys Oakheart for Joffrey´s death.. Arys was not in KL when Joffrey died, but had gone away, on the King´s orders.

I see Jaime´s "loyal until the end" as Jaime's assessment over Hightower for all the information Jaime has. Of course Jaime doesn't know everything that happened at the tower. But that is not the point.

Jaime had about 1,5 years to observe what Hightower was like. He will have known that Hightower had been send away by Aerys to find Rhaegar, and clearly, Hightower succeeded, as Rhaegar returned. But it is the assessment of Hightower's character that I'm talking about here. Hightower was loyal, according to Jaime.. Which doesn't sound like a man who would have been foresaking Aerys after leaving KL, and who would disobey his king and obey his Prince instead.

[LmL]

There is some irony to the fact that Tommen, a bastard, is whacking away at Bran, the future prince, while this is happening. Right before Jon delivers that line, we get:This is followed by a description of the scene where Robb and Theon are cheering for Bran.

The "hiding" quote is often truncated, but when you add the context it is clear that, if Jon is the one hiding from King Robert, Jon is one of the ordinary people and not royalty.

Certainly, the main intention of the wording is that the people are shy and are hidden under the snow. Clearly.

But, the idea of a double meaning is that there is a surface meaning to distract - the northerners are shy - and a hidden meaning you can get by changing the phrase which is being modified to Kings. I've seen George use this exact technique many times - it's one his favorites, I'd even say.

To me, there's little doubt that Jon being a King under the Snow is in fact an intended double meaning, although any one interpretation like this, based on changing the modifying phrase, can of course be wrong and must be corroborated by other things to be meaningful. And indeed, Jon gets "King'ed" many times, so I think it's safe to say this was a king reference for Jon also.

Just to demonstrate what I see is Martin's ridiculous skill in this area of layering meanings, consider: there is a third meaning here. Ned is playing the symbolic role of King of Winter here, all through this chapter. He has a frozen face; he never changes; laughter frozen in his throat; and many more. His people are hidden under the snow because the original King of Winter was an Other of some kind and his people were WIGHTS. Hidden under the snow indeed - Winterfell's non-royalty is buried in the lichyard outside the castle.

So that's one surface meaning, and two hidden ones. That I have found.

Robert is "like a horned god" in this chapter, Ned recalls, when he puts on the antler helm that makes him a giant.

This was, symbolically, right in the beginning of book one, a meeting between Garth the Green and the King of Winter. Robert's death was heavily foreshadowed here as well.

[stateofdissipation]

I know the passage.. Quoting it is not explaining how you find its final statement a sarcastic one.

Jaime explains what happened to Rickard, and tells how the LC of the KG told him not to judge Aerys for this, and ends with the statement that people consider Gerold to have been a better man than Jaime is, and how Gerold was loyal until the end.

Sarcasm

1. A cutting, often ironic remark intended to express contempt or ridicule.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/sarcasm

Irony

a. The use of words to express something different from and often opposite to their literal meaning.

b. An expression or utterance marked by a deliberate contrast between apparent and intended meaning:

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/irony

As for Lord Rickard, the steel of his breastplate turned cherry-red before the end, and his gold melted off his spurs and dripped down into the fire. I stood at the foot of the Iron Throne in my white armor and white cloak, filling my head with thoughts of Cersei.

Normal reaction to the the events described. Faced with something horrible, a normal person attempts to avoid thinking about it.---All men agree

After, Gerold Hightower himself took me aside and said to me, ‘You swore a vow to guard the king, not to judge him.’

Giving absolute loyalty to an mad man is not a normal thing. Faced with serving a mad man, a normal person would resign or resist...if oath prevented it a normal person would endure it--like Jamie did. Hiding behind a vow and withholding judgement is not something all men would agree with.

That was the White Bull, loyal to the end and a better man than me, all agree.” —ACOK

The conclusion is the opposite of the statements provided by its support. That is ironic--(not as ironic as providing a straight definition of irony)

....this irony expresses contempt for both Hightower and those that think he was a better man than Jamie.

The statement is sarcastic.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Sarcasm

1. A cutting, often ironic remark intended to express contempt or ridicule.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/sarcasm

Irony

a. The use of words to express something different from and often opposite to their literal meaning.

b. An expression or utterance marked by a deliberate contrast between apparent and intended meaning:

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/irony

Normal reaction to the the events described. Faced with something horrible, a normal person attempts to avoid thinking about it.---All men agree

Giving absolute loyalty to an mad man is not a normal thing. Faced with serving a mad man, a normal person would resign or resist...if oath prevented it a normal person would endure it--like Jamie did. Hiding behind a vow and withholding judgement is not something all men would agree with.

The conclusion is the opposite of the statements provided by its support. That is ironic--(not as ironic as providing a straight definition of irony)

....this irony expresses contempt for both Hightower and those that think he was a better man than Jamie.

The statement is sarcastic.

Gerold swore his vow to Jaehaerys, a sane King, and it is not unlikely that he had to give some show of loyalty to Aerys, when Aerys gained the throne. Aerys, in 262 AC, was as sane as he ever was. And Gerold´s oath was for life. Despite what happened to his King, Gerold had vowed all his Kingsguard vows, and was supposed to sit them out until the end.

As far as Jaime is aware, Hightower did just so, until the day he died..

Or, are you trying to say that Jaime considers himself to be a better man than Hightower?

And it is not just Jaime, by the way. Ned's dream as well, paints a picture of Hightower's loyalty.

“When King’s Landing fell, Ser Jaime slew your king with a golden sword, and I wondered where you were.”

“Far away,” Ser Gerold said, “or Aerys would yet sit the Iron Throne, and our false brother would burn in seven hells.”

This is a dream, so whether the conversation literally went like this, or not, we don't know. But it is the message that is important. Why would Ned dream Hightower stating that Aerys would still be king, had he been in King's Landing?

“Ser Willem Darry is fled to Dragonstone, with your queen and Prince Viserys. I thought you might have sailed with him.”

“Ser Willem is a good man and true,” said Ser Oswell.

“But not of the Kingsguard,” Ser Gerold pointed out. “The Kingsguard does not flee.”

According to Ned's dream, Gerold also stilll seems to consider himself one of the Kingsguard.. Why do so, if he has foresaken his own king?

“Then or now,” said Ser Arthur. He donned his helm.

“We swore a vow,” explained old Ser Gerold.

And last, Gerolds exclamation of "we swore a vow". Do we know which vow? Technically, no, we don't. But in light of the conversation "The Kingsguard does not flee - then or now - we swore a vow") it is heavily implied, IMO, that Gerold is speaking about his KG vow.

[Voice]

Since Joffrey is a bastard, there must be a prince he is not allowed to hurt. Robb was not a prince at the time being and Joff was indeed allowed to hurt Robb in the practice yard.

So Jon was talking about himself in third-person? lol okay... This gets back to my point last thread. If you read the text thinking R+L must equal J, then it colors your perspective. If you read the text in a more unbiased way, you begin to see the holes in the theory. Don't get me wrong, I see the clues that point towards RLJ, they are not subtle.

But in addition to those clues, I see others. RLJ forces us to invent plot lines, places, and even characters that do not exist in the text. RLJ enjoys a wide consensus, and I was one of your number not long ago. But when I separated the wheat from the chaff, it became clear that while RLJ enjoys some textual support, it also forces us to ignore certain inconvenient truths. On top of that, the lines between canon, non-canon, and speculation, are often blurred when the time comes to prove the theory in debate.

The tower of joy is a good example of this. It requires much invention by the reader to place Lyanna and Jon there, as opposed to Starfall - which requires no invention at all, and aligns with SSMs on the subject.

Kings of Winter are hiding under the stones (of Winterfell's Crypts).

So are you saying there is no way Robert's quip can refer to the Kings of Winter, or even Night's King? If so, I would say it seems you are purposefully narrowing your perspective at the expense of many possibilities, in order to reaffirm RLJ. That's okay of course, I just don't see how such a practice is beneficial.

[Voice]

And anyone who does is going to have to start with explaining why Hightower would willingly fight alongside Dayne, after he had broken so many of those precious KG oaths.

I don't mind starting with that. Hightower set no precedents, and neither did Dayne, if Arthur+Lyanna=Jon...

"Words are wind. If you love me, do not leave me."

"I swore a vow . . ."

". . . not to wed or father children. Well, I have drunk my moon tea, and you know I cannot marry you." She smiled. "Though I might be persuaded to keep you for my paramour."

"Now you mock me."

"Perhaps a little. Do you think you are the only Kingsguard who ever loved a woman?"

"There have always been men who found it easier to speak vows than to keep them," he admitted. Ser Boros Blount was no stranger to the Street of Silk, and Ser Preston Greenfield used to call at a certain draper's house whenever the draper was away, but Arys would not shame his Sworn Brothers by speaking of their failings. "Ser Terrence Toyne was found abed with his king's mistress," he said instead. "'Twas love, he swore, but it cost his life and hers, and brought about the downfall of his House and the death of the noblest knight who ever lived."

"Yes, and what of Lucamore the Lusty, with his three wives and sixteen children? The song always makes me laugh."

"The truth is not so funny. He was never called Lucamore the Lusty whilst he lived. His name was Ser Lucamore Strong, and his whole life was a lie. When his deceit was discovered, his own Sworn Brothers gelded him, and the Old King sent him to the Wall. Those sixteen children were left weeping. He was no true knight, no more than Terrence Toyne . . ."

"And the Dragonknight?" She flung the bedclothes aside and swung her legs to the floor. "The noblest knight who ever lived, you said, and he took his queen to bed and got her with child."

"I will not believe that," he said, offended. "The tale of Prince Aemon's treason with Queen Naerys was only that, a tale, a lie his brother told when he wished to set his trueborn son aside in favor of his bastard. Aegon was not called the Unworthy without cause." He found his swordbelt and buckled it around his waist. Though it looked queer against the silken Dornish undertunic, the familiar weight of longsword and dagger reminded him of who and what he was. "I will not be remembered as Ser Arys the Unworthy," he declared. "I will not soil my cloak."

"Yes," she said, "that fine white cloak. You forget, my great-uncle wore the same cloak. He died when I was little, yet I still remember him. He was as tall as a tower and used to tickle me until I could not breathe for laughing."

"I never had the honor to know Prince Lewyn," Ser Arys said, "but all agree that he was a great knight."

"A great knight with a paramour. She is an old woman now, but she was a rare beauty in her youth, men say."

Prince Lewyn? That tale Ser Arys had not heard. It shocked him. Terrence Toyne's treason and the deceits of Lucamore the Lusty were recorded in the White Book, but there was no hint of a woman on Prince Lewyn's page.

"My uncle always said that it was the sword in a man's hand that determined his worth, not the one between his legs," she went on, "so spare me all your pious talk of soiled cloaks. It is not our love that has dishonored you, it is the monsters you have served and the brutes you've called your brothers."

[stateofdissipation]

Gerold swore his vow to Jaehaerys, a sane King, and it is not unlikely that he had to give some show of loyalty to Aerys, when Aerys gained the throne. Aerys, in 262 AC, was as sane as he ever was. And Gerold´s oath was for life. Despite what happened to his King, Gerold had vowed all his Kingsguard vows, and was supposed to sit them out until the end.

As far as Jaime is aware, Hightower did just so, until the day he died..

Or, are you trying to say that Jaime considers himself to be a better man than Hightower?

And it is not just Jaime, by the way. Ned's dream as well, paints a picture of Hightower's loyalty.

“When King’s Landing fell, Ser Jaime slew your king with a golden sword, and I wondered where you were.”

“Far away,” Ser Gerold said, “or Aerys would yet sit the Iron Throne, and our false brother would burn in seven hells.”

This is a dream, so whether the conversation literally went like this, or not, we don't know. But it is the message that is important. Why would Ned dream Hightower stating that Aerys would still be king, had he been in King's Landing?

“Ser Willem Darry is fled to Dragonstone, with your queen and Prince Viserys. I thought you might have sailed with him.”

“Ser Willem is a good man and true,” said Ser Oswell.

“But not of the Kingsguard,” Ser Gerold pointed out. “The Kingsguard does not flee.”

According to Ned's dream, Gerold also stilll seems to consider himself one of the Kingsguard.. Why do so, if he has foresaken his own king?

“Then or now,” said Ser Arthur. He donned his helm.

“We swore a vow,” explained old Ser Gerold.

And last, Gerolds exclamation of "we swore a vow". Do we know which vow? Technically, no, we don't. But in light of the conversation "The Kingsguard does not flee - then or now - we swore a vow") it is heavily implied, IMO, that Gerold is speaking about his KG vow.

Or, are you trying to say that Jaime considers himself to be a better man than Hightower?

There are no men like me. There's only me

- Jaimie to Catelyn--aCoK

Jamie considering himself in relation to any man is a comparison between apples and oranges. That adds to the irony of his statement that Hightower was a better man...

I think it passing odd that I am loved by one for a kindness I never did, and reviled by so many for my finest act.

- Jaimie to Catelyn--aCoK

Jamie's self described finest act was the act Hightower used in calling Jamie his false brother.... thanks for providing that quote. The disparity of the views on the killing of Aerys lends further irony to Jamie's statement.

It was that white cloak that soiled me, not the other way around.

– Jaime to Brienne--aSoS

The cloak that Hightower put on Jamie soiled him.... adding further irony to his statement of Hightower being a better man..

And it is not just Jaime, by the way. Ned's dream as well, paints a picture of Hightower's loyalty.

Sorry for including the definition of irony.... you seem to be pretty aware of it...

When King’s Landing fell, Ser Jaime slew your king with a golden sword, and I wondered where you were.”

“Far away,”

Not being present when the king was killed is a sign of loyalty and keeping the rules

or

“or Aerys would yet sit the Iron Throne, and our false brother would burn in seven hells.

Boasting what would have happend--had he been present to protect the king he swore to protect.-- is Loyalty

“But not of the Kingsguard,” Ser Gerold pointed out. “The Kingsguard does not flee.”

Knowing who is not a member of the kingsguard is loyalty?

or

Not fleeing is loyalty?

“We swore a vow,” explained old Ser Gerold.

If his vow was to not be present when Aerys was murdered, boast about what would have happened if he had been, know who is not kingsguard, and not flee---- Hightower was loyal to the bone.

Somehow none of those things are present in the kingsguard vow... I wonder why they left them out.

By the by.... the kingsguard have "vows" plural... there are more than one. Apparently counting or remembering the additional vows was not important to Hightower...

Actually, if we take away protect the king and the royal family... it does limit the amount of vows in the kingsguard... now all you need to do is figure out which other vows Hightower discarded to come up with the single remaining "vow".....

[Lord Varys]

First, does not consider himself to be a disloyal man or a criminal for killing Aerys. He thinks he has done his duty, after a fashion, as he fulfilled his oath to protect the innocent. While Jaime also stood by and watched many people being burned to death alive he eventually corrected that mistake by slaying the king who made him watch all that.

Hightower, on the other hand, took the easy way out. Another mission far away from KL where he no longer had to smell the tasty smell of cooking human flesh. Jaime clearly resents the fact that the other KG get a pass on all the atrocities they watched and allowed to happen while he is condemned over the Aerys thing. If we go with Jaime sincerely stating that Hightower was a loyal man until the end - and considering a sarcastic layer underneath it - the sentence would presuppose that Jaime considers himself to be a disloyal man which is clearly not how Jaime sees himself.

The dream has nothing to do with that. Hightower can be loyal in a broader sense, too. Just not Aerys but to the royal family in broader sense or to whatever oath he also swore - just as Jaime was.

[MtnLion]

Don't want to go into any of theories regarding Dayne's role at the moment. But I'd like to add that Hightower doesn't have any real choice. They have the orders and they have to obey, like it or not. They do not have to like each other, but they have to fight together. Barristan Selmy clearly doesn't like Jaime (who failed the main oath of KG), still they both serve Robert.

We have Ned's interpretation of the Kingsguard's vow: His sword helped taint the throne you sit on, Ned thought, but did not permit the words to pass his lips. "He swore a vow to protect his king's life with his own. Then he opened that king's throat with a sword." Reading these three statements, with Ned's understanding we have: The Kingsguard does not flee (from its duty to protect King Aerys) then or (from its duty to protect Jon) now, because (explained) we swore a vow to protect our king's life with our own; puts things in a very clear light.

It is important for Ned to understand why the Kingsguard are fighting, and the reason given is "vow". What vow does Ned know?

[IceFire125]

“I trust you enjoyed the journey, Your Grace?”

Robert snorted. “Bogs and forests and fields, and scarcely a decent inn north of the Neck. I’ve never seen such a vast emptiness. Where are all your people?”

“Likely they were too shy to come out,” Ned jested. He could feel the chill coming up the stairs, a cold breath from deep within the earth. “Kings are a rare sight in the north.”

Robert snorted. “More likely they were hiding under the snow. Snow, Ned!” The king put one hand on the wall to steady himself as they descended

The paths were treacherous with black ice, and hoarfrost sparkled in the moonlight on the broken panes of the Glass Gardens. Drifts of dirty snow had piled up against the walls, filling every nook and corner. Some were so high they hid the doors behind them. Under the snow lay grey ash and cinders

She knows who he is. She sees things in her fires.”

Arya, he thought, hoping it was so. “Ashes and cinders.”

“Kings and dragons.”

-

“Prince Quentyn’s death was his own doing, and yours.”

“Ours? How are we at fault, ser? Quentyn was our friend, yes. A bit of a fool, you might say, but all dreamers are fools. But first and last he was our prince. We owed him our obedience.”

Barristan Selmy could not dispute the truth of that. He had spent the best part of his own life obeying the commands of drunkards and madmen.

Jon laughed, laughed like a drunk or a madman, and his men laughed with him.

“My father had no time for books.” Joffrey shoved the tome across the table. “If you read less, Uncle Imp, perhaps Lady Sansa would have a baby in her belly by now.” He laughed … and when the king laughs, the court laughs with him.