Why did George make the slavers in SB so atrocious?

[Mithras]

Would Dany not lift her finger for anything less?

Did George want to keep Dany as a sympathetic character?

Regardless, does not the end result look like a lousy white savior narrative?

Discuss.

[SeanF]

Would Dany not lift her finger for anything less?

Did George want to keep Dany as a sympathetic character?

Regardless, does not the end result look like a lousy white savior narrative?

Discuss.

Members of all races in this world both participate in, and are victims of, the slave trade.

Everything that happens to slaves in Essos can be found in real life.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Are the slavers truly so atrocious? Or are they just normal humans, as nasty as any other, seen from the outside perspective, strangers? And aren't strangers automatically evil?

They are no worse than the mob shouting on an execution or Cersei's WoS in Westeros. They are no worse than the soldiers commiting war crimes in the Riverlands. They are no worse than the Ironborn practising human sacrifice. They are no worse than the Lyseni brothel owners. They are no worse than the Dothraki genocides.

What they are is foreign.

[Consigliere]

I love how all your Dany related threads pretend to be aimed at genuine discourse but are actually thinly veiled attempts at marginalising Dany as a character/starting a Dany hate thread.

[Falcon2908]

http://i.imgur.com/SAgwUJy.gif

[Gibzit]

Because slavery is atrocious.

[marthos]

I think that GRRM made the slavers so atrocious because that is what slavery really is, an atrocity. He hasn't shied away from the ugly parts of our own history, so I wouldn't expect him to sugarcoat slavery either.

Regarding the white savior narrative, I don't even know how that would be applicable here since people of all skin color are subjected to slavery (this reflects our own history as well, once you go beyond the United States and go back further in history). What I see with Dany is not the color of her skin, but her last name. She comes from a line of conquerors, which came from an even bigger line of conquerors that used dragons. I see her as reversing things by using her dragons as liberators first time, and instituting a larger change in the world than just restoring her family to the Iron Throne.

[Lord Freypie]

They are seen through westerosi eyes, westerosi who aren't really fond of their culture, tend to confuse their weird names, and only differenciate them by reducing them to their appearance or one or two usually bad personnal traits.

It logically makes them appear as even worse than they are (not to say they aren't bad to start with, as any people supporting slavery are).

[Balerion the kitten]

Are the slavers truly so atrocious? Or are they just normal humans, as nasty as any other, seen from the outside perspective, strangers? And aren't strangers automatically evil?

They are no worse than the mob shouting on an execution or Cersei's WoS in Westeros. They are no worse than the soldiers commiting war crimes in the Riverlands. They are no worse than the Ironborn practising human sacrifice. They are no worse than the Lyseni brothel owners. They are no worse than the Dothraki genocides.

What they are is foreign.

Tyring to make your statement philosophical hasn't helped your point.

Are you seriously trying to compare people shouting abuse at a women who symbolises their crap life, to slavers who dip boys in honey, fish and blood so they can bet on who a bear will eat first?

Call them foreign all you want, doesn't make their actions less atrocious.

Hey I've got something to say! You know Gregor, he's no worse than Ellaria. He's just got a strange way of thinking.

[Nictarion]

I love how all your Dany related threads pretend to be aimed at genuine discourse but are actually thinly veiled attempts at marginalising Dany as a character/starting a Dany hate thread.

:agree:

[SeanF]

Tyring to make your statement philosophical hasn't helped your point.

Are you seriously trying to compare people shouting abuse at a women who symbolises their crap life, to slavers who dip boys in honey, fish and blood so they can bet on who a bear will eat first?

I think the mob at Kings Landing would not have stopped at jeering, if they had the chance.

But, I think the culture of Slavers Bay has become even worse than most.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

I love how all your Dany related threads pretend to be aimed at genuine discourse but are actually thinly veiled attempts at marginalising Dany as a character/starting a Dany hate thread.

^^ Yes.

He made the slavers so nasty because slavers are nasty lol, even seen Roots? 12 years a slave? Django? Nasty fucking assholes every one of them.

The ancient Valyrians were slavers, so The George sunk their continent. Volantis has fallen into ruin, they are still ok with slavery. The White Walkers are even a form of slavers, and if I had to guess, they will be defeated in the end. GRRM hates slavery and is showing us what happens to the worst people in the world. Dany is just a vehicle for teaching them a lesson.

[protar]

I think that GRRM made the slavers so atrocious because that is what slavery really is, an atrocity. He hasn't shied away from the ugly parts of our own history, so I wouldn't expect him to sugarcoat slavery either.

That doesn't gel with how Martin normally writes. He doesn't sugarcoat atrocities, but nor does he treat (most of) the people who commit atrocities as monsters. They're human, and that's what's so scary about them. A couple of pure evil individuals like Ramsay and Gregor is one thing. But the pure evil of the Ghiscari - seemingly an entire nation of soulless, puppy eating villains borders on farce.

It gets better in ADWD admittedly. But overall the Ghiscari have far less development than any Westerosi. And I think was because Martin just wanted to get Dany's training wheels on, and doesn't truly care as much about Slaver's Bay as Westeros. And so we get a much simpler narrative. Another possibility - one I quite like - is that they are so simple in order to paint Dany in a better light. So that when she comes to Westeros and starts fighting against foes with more reasonable motives, it will be quite the shock when Dany stops looking so good.

[Nictarion]

That doesn't gel with how Martin normally writes. He doesn't sugarcoat atrocities, but nor does he treat (most of) the people who commit atrocities as monsters. They're human, and that's what's so scary about them. A couple of pure evil individuals like Ramsay and Gregor is one thing. But the pure evil of the Ghiscari - seemingly an entire nation of soulless, puppy eating villains borders on farce.

It gets better in ADWD admittedly. But overall the Ghiscari have far less development than any Westerosi. And I think was because Martin just wanted to get Dany's training wheels on, and doesn't truly care as much about Slaver's Bay as Westeros. And so we get a much simpler narrative. Another possibility - one I quite like - is that they are so simple in order to paint Dany in a better light. So that when she comes to Westeros and starts fighting against foes with more reasonable motives, it will be quite the shock when Dany stops looking so good.

We've known since book 1 that she plans to invade Westeros (oppose characters we like), it shouldn't come as a "shock" to anyone. She can still remain a sympathetic character too. Did most people not root for Tyrion andDavos during the BW?

[SeanF]

Martin may even be pulling his punches a bit.

In a Roman Arena, you might get treated to the spectacle of a woman being raped by a donkey, or young girls being raped by baboons; or condemned men being fed to wild beasts; or crucified and burned alive;

[Lord Freypie]

I don't think they are "simple" or "monsters" out of westerosi thoughts.

They are humans product of their culture, most of them unable to differenciate it with the practice of slavery, which has been their tradition/speciality for milleniums.

Slavery is monstruous. Most ghiscari just conservatives who find normal their society as it always has been.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Tyring to make your statement philosophical hasn't helped your point.

Are you seriously trying to compare people shouting abuse at a women who symbolises their crap life, to slavers who dip boys in honey, fish and blood so they can bet on who a bear will eat first?

Call them foreign all you want, doesn't make their actions less atrocious.

Hey I've got something to say! You know Gregor, he's no worse than Ellaria. He's just got a strange way of thinking.

And Septon Urrt? He tortures and rapes small boys to death, for (sexual) fun.

Gregor Clegane?

Ramsay and Roose Bolton?

Armory Lorch?

All of them are Westerosi.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Yes. I mean seriously moustache twirling villain?

[Ser Arthur Hightower]

A lot of it seems atrocious by almost any modern or historical real life standard, especially when reading from Dany's point of view, when we read it from Tyrion's point of view we find out other things though: the slaves (apart from the Unsullied) are often treated about as well as commoners in Westeros, they have more food and warmth in winter, for a lot of domestic slaves their position is quite comfortable.

Also as protar said, the ASOS plot is really quite weak in many aspects because so much isn't well developed, but when we get into ADWD we see how their culture and society works.

[Good Guy Garlan]

That doesn't gel with how Martin normally writes. He doesn't sugarcoat atrocities, but nor does he treat (most of) the people who commit atrocities as monsters. They're human, and that's what's so scary about them. A couple of pure evil individuals like Ramsay and Gregor is one thing. But the pure evil of the Ghiscari - seemingly an entire nation of soulless, puppy eating villains borders on farce.

It gets better in ADWD admittedly. But overall the Ghiscari have far less development than any Westerosi. And I think was because Martin just wanted to get Dany's training wheels on, and doesn't truly care as much about Slaver's Bay as Westeros. And so we get a much simpler narrative. Another possibility - one I quite like - is that they are so simple in order to paint Dany in a better light. So that when she comes to Westeros and starts fighting against foes with more reasonable motives, it will be quite the shock when Dany stops looking so good.

Agreed. I think the slavers of Astapor are the biggest offenders, to the point that I can't even take them seriously in their over-the-top atrocities. Yunkaii is just farcically ridiculous, but things do get a tiny bit better in Meereen when we get a couple of morally grey Ghiscari like Hizdahr, the Shavepate, etc.