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Why did George make the slavers in SB so atrocious?


Mithras

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I recently asked this in another thread, but why aren't the Boltons considered "mustache twirling cartoon villains"? I mean, they look like vampires, excessively use leeches, have a flayed man on their banners, and live in a place called the DREADFORT!

SB is hardly the only part of the story GRRM made over the top.

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I recently asked this in another thread, but why aren't the Boltons considered "mustache twirling cartoon villains"? I mean, they look like vampires, excessively use leeches, have a flayed man on their banners, and live in a place called the DREADFORT!

SB is hardly the only part of the story GRRM made over the top.

The Boltons are just one family, and we've only actually met two of them (and heard about another who was implied to be at least fairly decent). They have a sinister repute which the current generation certainly lives up to, but who is to say exactly what previous generations where like? The Ghiscari are a whole nation of ridiculous puppy eaters.

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We've known since book 1 that she plans to invade Westeros (oppose characters we like), it shouldn't come as a "shock" to anyone. She can still remain a sympathetic character too. Did most people not root for Tyrion andDavos during the BW?

I didn't mean it would be a shock that she's invading Westeros. Just that I think it's possible that morally black slavers are like that to disguise how ruthless and tyrannical Dany can potentially be. So when she gets to Westeros and she starts burning people we like, it will be a big subversion of expectations for many readers. Which isn't to say she'll be a full on villain. But she'll do a lot of things which do not make her look good.

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Ironborn are evil too but Victarion and Euron have fans. Asha and Rodrik Harlaw are likeable, yes, but I see Reznak and Hizdarh in a positive light.



TWOIAF shows that being a psycho is what Boltons do.

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So? Puppy eaters is meaningless.

Americans eat veal. I really don't see the difference.

It's not like everyone in western society hates Korea for the (somewhat exaggerated) consumption of puppies.

Besides, there HAVE been society's that were pure evil. Look at the upper levels of Nazi Germany; SB doesn't look so evil in comparison.

As for the Boltons, if Domeric was still alive, I think I would be rooting for him.

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Dany was in fact a slaver.

She's surrounded by slaves and uses slaves through book 1.

She even burns one alive for minor insolence.

This is why you shouldn't read books from a biased point of view kids!

Perhaps a re-read and then we can discuss this issue civilly

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Ehhh... have you not noticed that GRRM does try and humanize some slavers? There not moustache twirling villains. Some are, not all.




Some is the right word.




Dany was in fact a slaver.




True. If taking money from people who sell themselves as slaves doesn't make her a slaver it does make her the next best thing.


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Dany was in fact a slaver.

She's surrounded by slaves and uses slaves through book 1.

She even burns one alive for minor insolence.

That is the big word here, she was a liberator of slaves and against slavery for the other 4 books and probably the next 2.

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That is the big word here, she was a liberator of slaves and against slavery for the other 4 books and probably the next 2.

Well perhaps since she herself was complicit in slavery for a time, she shouldn't indiscriminately torture and kill tweenagers who were born into it.

I mean if she had any regard for the golden rule.

That's the disgusting thing about Dany. Her complete refusal to engage in self reflection.

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I certainly think it is possible GRRM made the slavers atrocious at first glance so that during her conquest in ASoS you are rooting for her. Particularly the slaver from Astapor that she bought the unsullied from comes to mind. We as readers did not get to see any shades of gray until ADWD when she meets the nobles from Mereen. After she meets them, we realize that this has been their way of life for many years and that she is the one ruining it. But even still, that is only from a select few people. The majority of them just seem to be linear minded people bent on returning their lifestyle of slaver with every waking breath.


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The Boltons are just one family, and we've only actually met two of them (and heard about another who was implied to be at least fairly decent). They have a sinister repute which the current generation certainly lives up to, but who is to say exactly what previous generations where like? The Ghiscari are a whole nation of ridiculous puppy eaters.

Excellent point, which is why it should be fine with everyone if the entire ruling class of SB is exterminated. If people are so intent on calling them mustache twirling cartoons, then why do they immediately defend them as well? If they suck so much then let Dany get rid of them and be happy about it.

That is the big word here, she was a liberator of slaves and against slavery for the other 4 books and probably the next 2.

Yes precisely. She was also 13, newly forced into marriage and pregnant and a mere woman in the Male -driven khalasar and she had no dragons. She spoke up as much as she could, but she really had no power before Drogo died at all, so blaming her for the entire Dothraki way of life is so stupid.

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Ehhh... have you not noticed that GRRM does try and humanize some slavers? There not moustache twirling villains. Some are, not all.

Indeed. Furthermore, there is another feature of these non-moustach-twirling Ghiscari - they feature prominently in Barristan's, Quentyn's and Tyrion's chapters.

The Boltons are just one family, and we've only actually met two of them (and heard about another who was implied to be at least fairly decent). They have a sinister repute which the current generation certainly lives up to, but who is to say exactly what previous generations where like? The Ghiscari are a whole nation of ridiculous puppy eaters.

The Green Grace?

The Shavepate?

Hizdahr?

The old Yunkish Commander?

The Yellow Whale?

The Hero?

Are they all ridiculous, onedimensional puppy eaters? Which by the way is a lot less distasteful as sow's vulva, something the Romans were mad for.

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Excellent point, which is why it should be fine with everyone if the entire ruling class of SB is exterminated. If people are so intent on calling them mustache twirling cartoons, then why do they immediately defend them as well? If they suck so much then let Dany get rid of them and be happy about it.

Genocide And indiscrimate murder is never the answer.

But this discussion is tiresome and sooner or later someone will call me pro-slavery.

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^^ I think it is. I think it is for the ruling class of SB just like it will be for the White Walkers. Or do you think it will be bad to genocide the WW's as well? What about the orcs in TLOTR, should we save them from genocide too?



You either have to consider them mustache twirling cartoons who dont matter, or they are people you genuinely care about, can't have it both ways.


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