Michael Seswatha Jordan Posted August 10, 2015 Share Posted August 10, 2015 It also goes against what Bakker has said, which is that there is a "right" way to believe. If belief creates god, that wouldn't be true. It couldn't be true. Makes sense, good point.I'm totally willing to buy that the gods are just psychic vampires in the Outside. I don't get this or even begin to understand what psychic vampires on the outside means.....Demons? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lokisnow Posted August 10, 2015 Share Posted August 10, 2015 Long have I waited to post in this thread... Bakker is amazing. The Prince of Nothing and The Second Apocalypse are two of my favorite series in all of literature. Kellhus, Esmenet, Cnaiur, Serwe, Conphas, Proyas, Achamian, and of course the Consult: all fantastic characters. But perhaps my favorite part of these books is the world, history, and metaphysics behind it all. Reading through this thread (and the last one, and maybe more before that lol), a lot of ground has already been covered. The ontological ramifications of morality, belief, sorcery. The world as a kind of perceptive metaphor is a great idea for fantasy. Especially one so dark. Knowing Kellhus, I am fascinated to see where he plans to take the Great Ordeal. It seems too simple for his objective to be just the destruction of the Consult, or to join them. I can't help but think we are missing something, and that there must be another path. That path is a Golden one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sologdin Posted August 10, 2015 Share Posted August 10, 2015 the way, rather, is auriferous! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalnak the Magnificent Posted August 11, 2015 Share Posted August 11, 2015 I don't get this or even begin to understand what psychic vampires on the outside means.....Demons? Sure. Or souls that have managed to acquire some power through being able to exert their own will on the universe. Outside, I suppose, should have been capitalized. My suspicion is that there is very little difference between things like Ciphrang, the Zeumi ancestor worship, and the hundred gods. All essentially live on the fuel of souls, capriciousness and willpower. Ciphrang might have come first from the Outside instead of being human or nonmen or Inchoroi - they might be another alien race, basically. Same with the gods - perhaps they're the most powerful of other alien entities, and can influence countless other worlds as well as Earwa, and perhaps they came from other races instead of humans or nonmen. But at the end of the day they aren't God, they're not part of God except in the same way that everything is (as God is maximally willful and thus creates maximal objectivity), and they aren't created by faith; they goad faith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry of the Lawn Posted August 11, 2015 Share Posted August 11, 2015 Sure. Or souls that have managed to acquire some power through being able to exert their own will on the universe. Outside, I suppose, should have been capitalized. My suspicion is that there is very little difference between things like Ciphrang, the Zeumi ancestor worship, and the hundred gods. All essentially live on the fuel of souls, capriciousness and willpower. Ciphrang might have come first from the Outside instead of being human or nonmen or Inchoroi - they might be another alien race, basically. Same with the gods - perhaps they're the most powerful of other alien entities, and can influence countless other worlds as well as Earwa, and perhaps they came from other races instead of humans or nonmen. But at the end of the day they aren't God, they're not part of God except in the same way that everything is (as God is maximally willful and thus creates maximal objectivity), and they aren't created by faith; they goad faith. I like it. Fits in with the gnostic McCarthy stuff and the Judge amd the Hundred as archons/ciphrang/gods. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Castel Posted August 11, 2015 Share Posted August 11, 2015 Haha from a practical standpoint I agree with your Mama Pasta analogy ;). While the WLW is an impressive feat it is not more impressive than what Leto II was capable of. I could even interpret the WLW as a "simple" automaton for whom Leto II chose the "right" future path and the WLW is simply following the programme. It is clear that the "gods" have a particular blindness when it comes to Earwa (not only the No-God but all soulless creatures, that would include animals - most of them - as well). Furthermore they obviously need earth-bound agents to enforce their will. In my book, that is quite limited even compared to the myriad of Norse and Graeco-Roman gods. Furthermore: where is the creation myth? Isnt it strange that in a series so full of religion and religious metaphysics so far there is no reference how "it all began"? Who created men and nonmen? Maybe the gods have no clue afterall ;). And here is another thing which is strange: 1) the gods cannot see creatures without soul, that includes animals as well (in most cases) 2) Mimara and her Judging Eyes nevertheless make a value statement: snakes are holy, pigs are not The conclusion then is that the judging eye is a feature not related to the gods as for them soulless creatures should be no different than stone in their perception. Of course we could say it's all semantics but I say there is a relevant aspect to it: if the 100 are really "just" powerful and parasitic extra-dimensional beings (Demons according to the Fanim, Agencies according to the polite Nonmen), then - as improbable as it might be - they can be overcome! Maybe Kellhus is truly the "God in small" who's mission is to change the game rules. Or maybe he is just a very smart and powerful Dunyain. But he can defeat the imposers ;). Are we told that the Gods can't see animals? Because that would have some weird implications for how they see anything, if the WLW's viewpoint is in any way representative. He would be stumbling and falling every time an animal intersected with his preferred timeline. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unJon Posted August 11, 2015 Share Posted August 11, 2015 Are we told that the Gods can't see animals? Because that would have some weird implications for how they see anything, if the WLW's viewpoint is in any way representative. He would be stumbling and falling every time an animal intersected with his preferred timeline. I don't know where this gods can't see animals thing came from. Don't think there is textual support for it. There are statements that the NoGod is a blind spot for the Hundred, other than possibly Anjokli. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arakan Posted August 11, 2015 Share Posted August 11, 2015 Are we told that the Gods can't see animals? Because that would have some weird implications for how they see anything, if the WLW's viewpoint is in any way representative. He would be stumbling and falling every time an animal intersected with his preferred timeline. That was a deduction from my side. It has been stated in these threads that the reason why the gods didnt/don't recognize the 1st and the possible 2nd Apocalypse as what they are, i.e. a plot directly against their power (and focus on mortal Kellhus instead) that they don't "see" the hordes of Sranc/Wracu/No-God. The gods don't see them because all those tekne products have no Soul. By default animals also have no soul. Regarding WLW...come on ;). Of course the "seeing" refers to seeing from the outside, the WLW is physically in Earwa. Furthermore it seems that the WL "posess" a regular born human body with regular eyes ;). Anyway, maybe I am wrong but the main point re Judging Eye stands: how can Mimara see animals as holy/unholy when those animals have no soul? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalnak the Magnificent Posted August 11, 2015 Share Posted August 11, 2015 For the same reason that she and others can see the stain on the onta. She doesn't just see souls and judge them. She sees the world as God sees it, with everything ordered and valued. In earwa, everything has a value just like on our world every atom has an atomic weight. It has nothing to do with souls and everything to do with the objective value of the universe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalnak the Magnificent Posted August 11, 2015 Share Posted August 11, 2015 As to the gods - they can see anything that exists in their timespace continuum - which is basically anything that God had created. The no god is outside that continuum. The inchoroi and their creations are not. The no god breaks the cycle of watcher and watched. It cannot be observed by god nor can it observe itself. Thus the gods cannot see it either. Since the gods believe that all they see is all that is, they do not consider it a threat any more than you would consider the sun going nova tomorrow a threat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arakan Posted August 11, 2015 Share Posted August 11, 2015 For the same reason that she and others can see the stain on the onta. She doesn't just see souls and judge them. She sees the world as God sees it, with everything ordered and valued. In earwa, everything has a value just like on our world every atom has an atomic weight. It has nothing to do with souls and everything to do with the objective value of the universe. Yes, I agree with that. Thus the implication that the Judging Eye is a feature of God, the omnipotent / omnipresent creator who naturally transcendents his creation, the universe. The Gods are maybe a 2 floor high building compared to humans lego house but God is infinitely high. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arakan Posted August 11, 2015 Share Posted August 11, 2015 As to the gods - they can see anything that exists in their timespace continuum - which is basically anything that God had created. The no god is outside that continuum. The inchoroi and their creations are not. The no god breaks the cycle of watcher and watched. It cannot be observed by god nor can it observe itself. Thus the gods cannot see it either. Since the gods believe that all they see is all that is, they do not consider it a threat any more than you would consider the sun going nova tomorrow a threat. Here is the thing. If it's "only" the No-God they cannot recognize, that means they should be aware of the Consult and their machinations. Are they? The Consult for more than 3000 years (and for who knows how long the Inchoroi before that) has been planning to "close" the world to the outside, to break the cycle of souls. Something which can be interpreted as direct atrack against the gods but did they stop the Consult? No. Instead they send the WLW against Kellhus. Why no WLW against the Consult? It makes no sense. Unless of course the limitations of the "gods" (perception and power projection) are much greater than just their inability to "see" the no-god. I mean, even mere mortals have realized the physical and metaphysical danger of the Consult and the No-God. "We", children of creation! And the "gods" are still ignorant ;). Nah, call me a Fanim ;). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Latan Posted August 11, 2015 Share Posted August 11, 2015 May be the Inverse Fire is like a Guild Navigator in Dune, in that it is able to shield the actions of the Consult from the prescient sight of the Gods even without the No-God being active. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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