AGOT Reread- Sansa

[Barba]

Here are weeks where we get Sansa chapter:

Oct. 23- Tyrion(II) Catelyn(III) Sansa(I)

Nov. 27- Catelyn(V) Sansa(II) Eddard(VII)

Jan. 1- Eddard(XI) Sansa(III) Eddard(XII)

Jan. 15- Eddard(XIV) Arya(IV) Sansa(IV)

Jan. 29- Catelyn(VIII) Tyrion(VII) Sansa(V)

Feb. 26- Sansa(VI) Daenerys(IX) Tyrion(IX)

Sansa I

Introduced: Mycah* (a butcher’s son);

Ser Barristan Selmy (Barristan the Bold, Lord Commander of the Kingsguard during the reign of King Robert, former Kingsguard to King Jaehaerys II and King Aerys II Targaryen; single-handedly saved King Aerys when he was taken hostage during the Defiance of Duskendale; pardoned by King Robert, later a.k.a. Arstan Whitebeard and enters Dany's service);

Lord Renly Baratheon* (Lord of Storm’s End, younger brother of King Robert and Lord Stannis Baratheon, Master of Laws during the reign of King Robert, later proclaimed King, killed by the shadow of his brother Stannis with help of Melisandre);

Ser Ilyn Payne (the King’s Justice, his house sworn to the Lannisters, once Captain of the household guard when Lord Tywin was Hand of King Aerys II; had his tongue removed by command of Aerys for the slanderous remark that Lord Tywin really ruled the realm; also Chief Gaoler of the dungeons below the Red Keep, part of his duties as the King's Justice).

Legends: Princess Daeryssa (Targaryen [?] Princess saved by Serwyn of the Mirror Shield from the giants);

Ser Morgil (evil slanderer of Queen Naerys who met Prince Aemon the Dragonknight in combat).

Sansa is getting ready to spend the afternoon with the Queen and Princess Myrcella, and goes in search of her sister. Arya wants no part of being with the Queen, so Sansa goes off on her own. When she arrives at the Queen’s wheelhouse, she sees a commotion. She is frightened terribly by Ser Ilyn Payne, and Lady even growls at him. She learns Ser Ilyn is mute, because King Aerys Targaryen had his tongue ripped out. She meets and names Ser Barristan and Lord Renly, and then Joffrey takes her for a horseback ride in the forest. Joff drinks too much at a farmstead, and while riding, they come upon Arya and Mycah practicing swordfighting. Joff challenges Mycah in a rage, but is attacked by Arya. Before he can hurt her, Nymeria smashes Joff to the ground and mangles his arm. Arya throws Joff’s sword in the river, and runs off with Nymeria. Sansa is horrified by how the day turned from dreamy to a nightmare. Joffrey yells at her in loathing when she tries to comfort him.

[The Adequate Jon]

Lord Renly Baratheon* (Lord of Storm’s End, younger brother of King Robert and Lord Stannis Baratheon, Master of Laws during the reign of King Robert, later proclaimed King; currently at the Wall making his seat at the Nightfort, in preparation to defend the realm from the Others);

The bold part is a description of Stannis, not Renly.

[Barba]

The bold part is a description of Stannis, not Renly.

My bad. It has been edited. Thanks

[Maester Yobjascz]

Ahhh, how different things would be if Sansa had spent the day with Myrcella instead of Joffrey... oh well.

I wonder if Joffrey would've actually killed Mycah or Arya, had Arya/Nymeria not intervened. Joffrey just seems like such a ... Yes, he later kills the occasional rabbit, and he's killed a cat. But I'm not aware of him ever killing a person... at any point in his life.

Further, I'm surprised Joffrey and Sansa were allowed to roam without some sort of guard. Even it had only been the Hound.

Thoughts?

[DBaron]

I wonder if Joffrey would've actually killed Mycah or Arya, had Arya/Nymeria not intervened. Joffrey just seems like such a ... Yes, he later kills the occasional rabbit, and he's killed a cat. But I'm not aware of him ever killing a person... at any point in his life.

I could swear that in ACOK he brags about wounding someone with his crossbow and killing another person.

[Barba]

I could swear that in ACOK he brags about wounding someone with his crossbow and killing another person.

Yup. He was shooting people with his crossbow in CoK when people started to riot because there was no food in the city. Other than that, I don't know. It is funny, however, that later in SOS or FFC Jamie says that bow is a coward's weapon :cool:

[DBaron]

Sansa I.

Initially I was always put off by Sansa. Mostly it is because she is so sappy, won’t stick up for her family, only thinks of herself, etc. Half the time I can’t even stand to read her chapters. On the reread I have tried to pay more attention to her though. She is still sappy, and hopelessly idealistic, but I do I feel bad for her now, considering how unprepared she was for the situation she was put into. She really needed Catelyn with her. It becomes even worse when you see Ned kill Lady. This girl never really had a chance. I do think Joffery would have killed Arya, or at least severely injured her had Nymeria not intervened. He was drunk, and full of rage.

Foreshadowing:

Joffery falls in roughly the same spot as Rheager. Perhaps an early indication that Joff is not Roberts true son? Also Both lose something valuable in the river, Lions tooth and Rhaeghars rubies. I wonder if Lions tooth wash up on the queit isle also

Questions

Why was Illyn Payne there?

While I am pretty sure we see this inn again, which one is it? Is it the one where Arya and the Hound kill the mountains men, or is it the one where Brienne fights Rorge and Biter?

Is Septa Mordane connected to the faith? Or is Septa her name?

Was Lions tooth a Valryian sword?

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

Septa and Septon are female and male members of the faith.

As for Joff, I don't think he would have kill Mycah had Arya not interfered, he would have cut him up and made him bleed some more, and then humiliate him some more, at that moment he was more interested in showing off in front of Sansa more than anything else.

[Barba]

While I am pretty sure we see this inn again, which one is it? Is it the one where Arya and the Hound kill the mountains men, or is it the one where Brienne fights Rorge and Biter?

The inns at crossroads we se here, then when Cat imprisons Tyrion, then when Tyrion returns with Mountain clans, then with Arya and at last with Brienne (5 times).

I always considered this all the same one inn, but I don't think that is true.

[Spring Bass]

I think it is the same inn, and it makes sense; the inn sits in a very convenient spot. However, it might not be as such, since Lord Tywin hangs the woman who was the innkeeper when Cat arrested Tyrion.

[A wilding]

It is the same inn throughout. This is made clear in AFfC when Septon Meribald talks though its history.

[Bellis]

On topic:

I really doubt Joff intended to kill Mycah. he did say "I won't hurt him, much". I understand his primary motivation was to show off his gallantry in front of Sansa. Being drunk, he may have misunderstood the relationship between Arya and Mycah, and then later decided it would make him look cool to bully a lower-class kid. At this point that's all he is - a bully.

Later, Arya uses the same phrase "She didn't hurt you, much", after Nymeria has torn up Joff's arm. This suggests to me that even Arya understood that at most Joff was going to rough up Mycah. not that it's OK, not that Arya shouldn't have stepped in to protect Mycah (though she went a bit far IMO), but it's better than killing.

OT:

There are 2 inns in the riverlands everyone frequents. I was trying to pay attention to this on my last read-through.

Inn at the Crossroads

events:

1.Cat kidnaps Tyrion.

2.Tyrion meets Tywin, who has hanged innkeep.

3. Sandor and Arya do some caranage

4. Brienne fights Biter/Rorge and is captured by unCat's posse.

Inn of Kneeling Man

events:

1. Brienne and Jaime buy horses.

2. Arya, BwB, et al latter hang out.

Oh, and i guess there's the brothel - Peach Pit or whatever with Bella is a third inn.

I'm possibly missing some events.

[The Adequate Jon]

Sansa I

Timeline: They are at the Crossroads Inn, roughly 3/4 of the way to KL. We get a clue to how fast they travel in this chapter. It took them 12 days to cross through the Neck. Of course, that leaves up to interpretation exactly where the Kingsroad leaves the Neck.

I loved the conversation between Sansa and Arya. It was very funny how horrified Sansa is by the things Arya does and says. Especially when Arya says she doesn't like the Queen.

Sansa tells Arya that she hates riding horses, but later tells Joffrey she loves riding when he suggests that they go riding.

The scene where Sansa gets frightened by Ser Ilyn and the Hound is interesting. Whenever Sansa is scared of someone, Lady growls at them.

I love this chapter because it shows exactly what kind of a person Joffrey is. All of his gallanty toward Sansa is just an act. He's only brave when he's the one holding the sword against an unarmed opponent. He acts like a frightened little girl when Arya is standing over him holding his sword.

[Barba]

Read it. Couple of things to add:

Prince Joffrey might be there. Her betrothed. Just thinking it made her feel a strange fluttering inside, even though they were not to marry for years and years. Sansa did not really know Joffrey yet, but she was already in love with him. He was all she ever dreamt her prince should be, tall and handsome and strong, with hair like gold.

This quote makse you see what sansa rally thinks. She is only interested in beauty from the outside, and connects it with the beauty from the inside.

Noticed few... I think they are mistakes. Maybe Sansa's and Renly's, maybe George's, or maybe.. Mine

First:

Sansa knew the name, and now the courtesies that Septa Mordane had taught her over the years came back to her. “The Lord Commander of the Kingsguard,†she said, “and councillor to Robert our king and to Aerys Targaryen before him. The honor is mine, good knight. Even in the far north, the singers praise the deeds of Barristan the Bold.â€

Now, I think only Lord commander is in the small council, so this would be wrong. LC during Aerys wag White Bull, Gerold Hightower

Second:

“Ser Ilyn has not been feeling talkative these past fourteen years,†Lord Renly commented with a sly smile.

Ok, this might be little too much, but I thought Robert won the throne 14 years ago. During that time, Tywin was not Hand a while (I think). I have always thought Payne lost his tongue while Tywin was Hand. Do we know when did it happen?

[The Adequate Jon]

Ok, this might be little too much, but I thought Robert won the throne 14 years ago. During that time, Tywin was not Hand a while (I think). I have always thought Payne lost his tongue while Tywin was Hand. Do we know when did it happen?

You are correct. Aerys was the one who had Ilyn's tongue cut out for saying that Tywin was the one running the kingdom. Robert's only hand before Ned was Jon Arryn.

[Tarthking]

I'm behind on the reread, and I just finished this chapter. A few things to add:

Sansa is clearly less connected with the North than the other Starks, even in this chapter. We can infer that she worships the Seven by some of the internal dialogue in this chapter. She also mentions that the woods in the South "had a gentle beauty that Sansa had never seen in the north" which contrasts with Arya, who saw the beauty of the Neck and other parts of the north. I think this suggests that Sansa, from the very beginning, is not a "true" Stark, in the sense that she is not really of the North.

She views Arya as primarily an embarrassment, but doesn't seem to have any animosity toward her. This contrasts with Arya's view of the their relationship, in which she believes Sansa is secretly mocking her much of the time, as we saw in the first Arya chapter. Two very different sisters, who also have very different views of their relationship to each other. I thought this was nicely done.

We have our first association with Death and the Stranger with Ser Ilyn. Very nice and lengthy description of him. Seems like he should have been a more important character than he has been.

Descriptions of Joffrey associate him with gold and sunlight. I personally think these descriptions as meant to connect him to the second shadow in Bran's dream, two chapters from this one. I know conventional wisdom says that its Jaime, but I think that's wrong.

Martin uses "pale" in a lot of the descriptions in this chapter. The inn is made of pale stone, fungus in the Neck was pale, Barristan's hair, and Ilyn's eyes. Not sure if this means anything, but I'm trying to notice words that are frequently used.

I'm fascinated by "lizard-lions". This is our first introduction to them, and they sound exactly like alligators or crocodiles. Why didn't Martin just use one of those words instead? It's another example of Martin combining elements to get something new and different, which seems to be a theme.

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

I think they are meant to be like our alligators, but they aren't meant to actually be our alligators.

Alligators on earth would not thrive that far north. Cold blooded animals likes warm weather.

If he uses the term "alligators", he'd get a million nitpickers pointing this out to him. But by using lizard-lions and then giving the discription, he at the same time gave the reader the impression that they are very similar to our alligators, but at the same time can justify any inconsistencies.

[Barba]

Descriptions of Joffrey associate him with gold and sunlight. I personally think these descriptions as meant to connect him to the second shadow in Bran's dream, two chapters from this one. I know conventional wisdom says that its Jaime, but I think that's wrong.

Nice view, but that Golden shadow was ARMORED in gold. I don't think Joff ever wore golden armor

But you can mention it in Bran's Topic

[Sword of the Evening]

I'm behind on the reread, and I just finished this chapter. A few things to add:

Sansa is clearly less connected with the North than the other Starks, even in this chapter. We can infer that she worships the Seven by some of the internal dialogue in this chapter. She also mentions that the woods in the South "had a gentle beauty that Sansa had never seen in the north" which contrasts with Arya, who saw the beauty of the Neck and other parts of the north. I think this suggests that Sansa, from the very beginning, is not a "true" Stark, in the sense that she is not really of the North.

I'm new here and I hope its ok if I post a comment on Sansa's first chapter since there is no Chapter 2 section set up for her as of yet.

I think the above comment is interesting...and if you take into the account that she is the only Stark child to have her direwolf killed and still remain alive, it may hint about the truth of the comment.

Bran (Summer), Jon (Ghost), and Arya (Nymeria) have all had dreams of being their wolves. We don't know about Rickon and Shaggydog having such a connection, but I imagine they may have. I think as magic returns to the world and things begin to change we're going to see the human/wolf relations take on greater meaning.

It may be this extra ability that allow the Starks to survive the coming winter.

[Barba]

Sansa II

Introduced: Ser Gregor Clegane* (The Mountain that Rides, bannerman to the Lannisters, brother of Sandor Clegane; died from a mortal, poisoned wound inflicted by Prince Oberyn the Red Viper, or did he?);

Lord Yohn Royce (called Bronze Yohn, Lord of Runestone, bannerman to the Arryns, cousin of Lord Nestor Royce, father of Ser Andar, Ser Robar and Ser Waymar; later leader of the Lords Declarant);

Thoros of Myr (warrior priest of the god R’hllor, later accompanies Lord Beric’s party and becomes right hand of the Lightning Lord; now traveling with Lady Stoneheart);

Ser Balon Swann (younger son of Lord Gulian Swann, later Kingsguard of Kings Joffrey and Tommen; currently sent to Dorne to return Myrcella);

Lord Bryce Caron* (of the Marches, Lord of Nightsong, bannerman to Storm’s End, later one of King Renly’s Rainbow Guard, the Orange);

Ser Andar Royce (eldest son and heir of Bronze Yohn);

Ser Robar Royce* (second son of Bronze Yohn; later knight of King Renly’s Rainbow Guard, the Red);

Ser Horas Redwyne (called Horror, twin of Ser Hobber, son of Lord Paxter Redwyne);

Ser Hobber Redwyne (called Slobber, twin of Ser Horas);

Ser Jared Frey (eldest son of Lord Walder Frey and his second wife);

Ser Hosteen Frey (eldest son of Lord Walder and his third wife);

Ser Danwell Frey (third son of Lord Walder and his third wife, brother of Ser Hosteen);

Ser Emmon Frey (married to Genna of House Lannister, second son of Lord Walder and his first wife, father of Ser Cleos; later named Lord of Riverrun but not Lord Paramount of the Trident);

Ser Theo Frey (grandson of Lord Walder [?]);

Ser Perwyn Frey (eldest son of Lord Walder and his sixth wife, later battle companion of Robb Stark);

Martyn Rivers (bastard son of Lord Walder Frey);

Jalabhar Xho (exiled prince from the Summer Isles, has been a member of the court in King's Landing for several years);

Lothor Brune (a freerider, later in service to Littlefinger, later knighted and nicknamed Apple-Eater; currently Captain of the Guards at the Eyrie);

Ser Hugh of the Vale* (former squire of Jon Arryn, knighted at his Lord’s death);

Ser Loras Tyrell (the Knight of Flowers, later Lord Commander of King Renly’s Rainbow Guard, later still Kingsguard of Joffrey and Tommen, youngest son of Lord Mace Tyrell);

Moon Boy (a fool and juggler).

Sansa watches the tourney from a place of honor with Septa Mordane and Jeyne Poole. As the jousting progressed, Ser Gregor Clegane’s lance rides up and impales Ser Hugh in the neck, killing him. By the end of the day’s jousting, the four remaining were Ser Gregor, the Hound, Ser Loras Tyrell and Ser Jaime Lannister. Littlefinger meets Sansa for the first time and mentions how much she looks like her mother, and touches her cheek. Later, at the feast, Joffrey sits next to her and is the soul of courtesy. The King gets drunk and then starts screaming at the Queen that he will fight in the melee on the morrow. The Queen leaves with a cold look on her face. Joffrey then tells the Hound to take Sansa back to her quarters, and deserts her. Sandor confronts Sansa when she calls him Ser, telling her he is no knight, and spits on their vows. Drunk, the Hound tells her that Ser Gregor killed that boy (Ser Hugh) on purpose during the tourney. As he continues to get riled up and forces her to look upon his face, he tells her how Ser Gregor had burned his face as a child, and then threatens to kill her if she ever mentions the story to anyone.