The Slayer of Lies

[Balerion the kitten]

Would you say that about Balerion the Black Dread as well? He breathes black fire, as black as his scales.

There's a difference between black fire and shadow fire. So no I wouldn't say the same for balerion

[sweetsunray]

There's a difference between black fire and shadow fire. So no I wouldn't say the same for balerion

What colors have shadow? Shadow is the absence of light. Black is the absence of color, and color can only be seen with light. Shadow = black.

[Balerion the kitten]

What colors have shadow? Shadow is the absence of light. Black is the absence of color, and color can only be seen with light. Shadow = black.

Okay then, it was black dragonfire (hard to convey tone when typing, but I was being mildly sarcastic. Big difference between the two and a deliberate difference)

[Lord Varys]

Mel would disagree. Darkness is darkness, but shadows are the children of fire and light. And it is not only Balerion whose fire was black - Drogon's is, too, as well as the Cannibal's, I presume. Those are all black dragons.

[Dark Lord of Stygai]

Well, here's what I think will go down...Jon will be dying, but not yet dead. The wounds don't seem of that nature that they would bring instant death, but at least one may be deadly in enough hours. He wargs into Ghost. Bowen & co stop stabbing, because they think the deed is done.

While Jon's warged and dying, she'll organize a burning sacrifice (indeed maybe Shireen) + Bowen & Co for their mutiny. This sacrifice will not actually heal Jon, but it will unlock the wall's magic, which Mel ends up using to heal Jon, akin to how Moqorro uses Ashai healing magic on Victarion's hand and arm. That was a very painful healing, and it would be even more painful for internal, deadly injuries to organs with Jon. But since he's warged he won't feel a thing of it. Moqorro's magic required a lot. Healing a dying Jon would require an immense amount. So, Mel ends up tapping into the wall's magic, partly draining it, and thus weakening the wall enough somewhere where there are towers and water.

We've also seen that Moqorro's healing magic had some strange physical effects on Vic: smoking, black, but crackling like skin with fire underneath (lava-like almost), and incredibly strong.

But the wall's magic has been trapped in stone and ice for thousands of years. It's not fire magic, it's ice magic. And so, Jon's body becomes strong but hard and cold as stone and ice, which fits Bran's dream/vision of Jon in aGoT when he looks North (alone in a bed, turning cold and hard), as well as Jon's own dream where he wears armor of black ice and is holding off wights climbing onto the wall, holding a flaming like sword, and that dream ends with him sending Igritte downwards.

So, basically, Mel would have created a super strong, ice cold Jon who can fight Others and wights, but well she weakened the wall, which the Others will breach at the location where Mel saw the towers coming down. So, she exchanged the protection the wall gave against the Others for a super strong Jon, who can't possibly hold off an army of wights and Others all by himself. Unwittingly Mel would be the one who fucked over the realm and the wall, because she believes Jon's important and must be saved. She of course should have left well alone, not mess with Jon's head about her visions, which made him more and more anxious and take the threat of the Pink Letter too serious, and eventually led to the stabby-stabby, and her healing attempt that will weaken the wall.

Davos chapters already revealed that Mel only sees a direct threat to her life, or the outcome of her meddling (Renly winning against Stannis she feared and saw, but her shadowbaby meddling had Garlan wear Renly's armor to win against Stannis at Blackwater). But she never saw it coming that Davos would rescue and smuggle out Edric Storm. Mel seeing towers of the Wall coming down (she claims it's Eastwatch though it doesn't look like that harbor) means she saw something she will have a hand in happening, just like Garlan in the Renly armor.

You literally beat me to the punch . I was gonna suggest that she would reanimate his corpse (Inferi like) and then molest it to wake a "stone dragon" using his shadow. Your theory actually makes more sense. It sounds like the kind of moronic move Mel would pull. :bang:

Oh God WHY did you have to make such a plausible theory? I'm going to pray really hard that Shireen doesn't burn and that the Horn of Joramun is used instead, because hating Mel on top of a lot of other characters would be too much now.

[Jeeves]

Not answering one because this isn't about Stannis's claim, and I don't wish to derail the thread.

2) fair enough.

3) It was described as shadow fire, hence a fake dragon. Because one, it was described as a beast and two it's not real fire.

Could be a fake dragon or some other beast.

I think the third "lie" has to do with Lord Leyton Hightower. We know from history that greyscale broke out in Oldtown many years ago. I suspect Leyton caught the disease many years later and that is his reason for keeping himself confined to his tower and avoiding the public. He keeps busy trying to cure the disease and trying to slow down its progress. However, after these many years, he's probably just about turned to stone.

The lie has to do with The Citadel and their role in the demise of the dragons. A Hightower played a major role in starting the Dance of the Dragons. Maybe it was a devious and diabolical plan by the Hightowers and The Citadel to get rid of the dragons. Perhaps there is something to what Marwyn said about leadership of The Citadel plotting against the dragons. Dany will uncover the role of the Hightowers in the death of the dragons and make them pay. And if the citadel worked to undermine the Targaryen dynasty, the entire Citadel will need to be demolished.

[sweetsunray]

You literally beat me to the punch . I was gonna suggest that she would reanimate his corpse (Inferi like) and then molest it to wake a "stone dragon" using his shadow. Your theory actually makes more sense. It sounds like the kind of moronic move Mel would pull. :bang:

Oh God WHY did you have to make such a plausible theory? I'm going to pray really hard that Shireen doesn't burn and that the Horn of Joramun is used instead, because hating Mel on top of a lot of other characters would be too much now.

Posted it almost a week ago: this thread the icejon for the wall (which was a wink to all the icedragon and icebrandon theories out there, and my icejon theory has nothing to do with that)

[Balerion the kitten]

Jon's body becomes strong but hard and cold as stone and ice, which fits Bran's dream/vision of Jon in aGoT when he looks North (alone in a bed, turning cold and hard), as well as Jon's own dream where he wears armor of black ice and is holding off wights climbing onto the wall, holding a flaming like sword, and that dream ends with him sending Igritte downwards.

And daenerys's dream where hizdhar is kissing her with blue lips (euron) and thrusts his manhood inside her which is as cold as ice (Jon). Stole that from someone else.

[Lord Varys]

I don't think that there will be a Shireen sacrifice in connection to Jon Snow. That's Stannis' thing if it happens - and George has already said he has not yet written Shireen's death in the books, indicating to me that she may actually survive TWoW and only die in ADoS (or whatever book comes out after TWoW). Considering that book Shireen is not even a tertiary character - she has had about as many lines as Balon Swann, perhaps even less - I don't buy the notion that George is treating Shireen's death as some kind of new Red Wedding making it the last chapter he writes in the book - there should be much crueler stuff happening in TWoW, anyway.

More importantly, if Mel kills Shireen without Stannis' permission we'd get another evil witch moment and the deeper drama of a father sacrificing his only child intentionally will be gone. Since George usually goes for the really big drama rather than some plot device I'm expecting Stannis to kill his daughter (and possibly his wife and Melisandre, too) when things become truly dire (i.e. when the Wall has fallen and he can need all the fire magic he can get). The Nissa Nissa story should actually be Melisandre's death, too, as she seems to be the one Stannis actually loves - he never talked to Shireen in the books, and clearly doesn't love Selyse. But he has sex with Mel and likes to have her close.

But I digress. TWoIaF has deciphered the Horn of Joramun mystery to us (which was evident to many but not to me). The giants in the earth is phrase describing and earthquake, and that's what's going to bring the Wall down. A huge devastating earthquake caused by the Others once they blow the Horn of Joramun (or have somebody blow it). There will be no need to drain the Wall of its magic nor do I think Mel would ever do such a think. She may try to save Jon Snow but she doesn't think he is the savior - and she most likely never will as long as Stannis lives (and even then she'd have to know about his heritage to draw such a conclusion) - and will thus not go to huge lengths to bring him back. Not to mention that there is an easy way to bring a corpse back to life these days - the kiss of life of the red priests.

[sweetsunray]

I don't think that there will be a Shireen sacrifice in connection to Jon Snow. That's Stannis' thing if it happens - and George has already said he has not yet written Shireen's death in the books, indicating to me that she may actually survive TWoW and only die in ADoS (or whatever book comes out after TWoW). Considering that book Shireen is not even a tertiary character - she has had about as many lines as Balon Swann, perhaps even less - I don't buy the notion that George is treating Shireen's death as some kind of new Red Wedding making it the last chapter he writes in the book - there should be much crueler stuff happening in TWoW, anyway.

More importantly, if Mel kills Shireen without Stannis' permission we'd get another evil witch moment and the deeper drama of a father sacrificing his only child intentionally will be gone. Since George usually goes for the really big drama rather than some plot device I'm expecting Stannis to kill his daughter (and possibly his wife and Melisandre, too) when things become truly dire (i.e. when the Wall has fallen and he can need all the fire magic he can get). The Nissa Nissa story should actually be Melisandre's death, too, as she seems to be the one Stannis actually loves - he never talked to Shireen in the books, and clearly doesn't love Selyse. But he has sex with Mel and likes to have her close.

But I digress. TWoIaF has deciphered the Horn of Joramun mystery to us (which was evident to many but not to me). The giants in the earth is phrase describing and earthquake, and that's what's going to bring the Wall down. A huge devastating earthquake caused by the Others once they blow the Horn of Joramun (or have somebody blow it). There will be no need to drain the Wall of its magic nor do I think Mel would ever do such a think. She may try to save Jon Snow but she doesn't think he is the savior - and she most likely never will as long as Stannis lives (and even then she'd have to know about his heritage to draw such a conclusion) - and will thus not go to huge lengths to bring him back. Not to mention that there is an easy way to bring a corpse back to life these days - the kiss of life of the red priests.

I don't mind discussing it further, but prefer to do it in the thread of the theory I made for it almost a week ago. Link was posted in prevous post of mine. Because the Jon for the Wall theory of mine is imo unrelated to the Slayer of Lies prophecies.

[Stag_legion]

The Targ line of inheritance was Rhaegar -> his trueborn male children -> his daughter -> Viserys -> Daenerys before any Baratheon. The change of inheritance law after DwD did not disinherit women altogether, but made it so that the female sisters would come after her brothers and their children even if the brother was younger than her. It is only when there are no brothers left, and the brothers have no children (including no daughters), that a sister can inherit. Until Aegon's reappearance that was the case for Dany. But with Aegon's reappearance, she has no Targ dynasty claim anymore. Of course, she will probably use the HotU vision as proof to herself to dethrone Aegon. If she kills him she will be a kinslayer as well as a kingslayer.

Actually all males in the family would inherent before any female! Viserys for instance would inherit before Rhargar's daughter. Same with baratheon dynasty. If Myrcella was actually robert's real daughter, Stannis would still inherit the throne before her, so would renly. Only after there were no more male relatives of the immediate family would it go to the first daughter!

Of course going by Targaryen inheritance dany does come before stannis, but that's because stannis comes from a female targaryen relative, and males and females from a male lines are ahead of those from female lines. Which is intentional, so that the house name is maintained.

[sweetsunray]

Actually all males in the family would inherent before any female! Viserys for instance would inherit before Rhargar's daughter. Same with baratheon dynasty. If Myrcella was actually robert's real daughter, Stannis would still inherit the throne before her, so would renly. Only after there were no more male relatives of the immediate family would it go to the first daughter!

Of course going by Targaryen inheritance dany does come before stannis, but that's because stannis comes from a female targaryen relative, and males and females from a male lines are ahead of those from female lines. Which is intentional, so that the house name is maintained.

Looked it up again, you're right. All male relatives come before female relatives in the throne succession of a dynasty, since DoD1.0. After Baelor, his uncle became king, instead of his sister.

[Lord Varys]

The succession is very tricky. Aerys II passed over Aegon (presumably Jon Snow, too, in the process) in favor of Viserys. After Rhaegar's death Viserys was next in line to the Iron Throne by the will of his father. Kings can name their heirs, and Great Councils also have recommended (in 101) and decided (in 233, presumably confirmed by the Hand, Lord Rivers) to give the throne to claimants with weaker claims.

Dany can now claim to be the chosen and named successor (Viserys III had named her Princess of Dragonstone) of the last rightful Targaryen king, who in turn was named by the last Targaryen king on the Iron Throne (Aerys II). Prince Aegon - if Rhaegar's son - was passed over by his grandfather and that is no secret. Dany isn't male which makes her position somewhat weaker, but Aegon may not even who he says he is so this is hard to figure out. Not to mention that Daenerys has dragons.

[sweetsunray]

The succession is very tricky. Aerys II passed over Aegon (presumably Jon Snow, too, in the process) in favor of Viserys. After Rhaegar's death Viserys was next in line to the Iron Throne by the will of his father. Kings can name their heirs, and Great Councils also have recommended (in 101) and decided (in 233, presumably confirmed by the Hand, Lord Rivers) to give the throne to claimants with weaker claims.

Dany can now claim to be the chosen and named successor (Viserys III had named her Princess of Dragonstone) of the last rightful Targaryen king, who in turn was named by the last Targaryen king on the Iron Throne (Aerys II). Prince Aegon - if Rhaegar's son - was passed over by his grandfather and that is no secret. Dany isn't male which makes her position somewhat weaker, but Aegon may not even who he says he is so this is hard to figure out. Not to mention that Daenerys has dragons.

Oh, Dany with dragons and IB and Dothraki will imo no doubt win. But it's also setting her up for being "Maegor with teats 2.0" in the people's eyes, at least initially. (BTW I think Alicent, Kingmaker Cole and Aegon II were shits)

[Sanset]

So, basically, Mel would have created a super strong, ice cold Jon who can fight Others and wights, but well she weakened the wall, which the Others will breach at the location where Mel saw the towers coming down. So, she exchanged the protection the wall gave against the Others for a super strong Jon, who can't possibly hold off an army of wights and Others all by himself. Unwittingly Mel would be the one who fucked over the realm and the wall, because she believes Jon's important and must be saved. She of course should have left well alone, not mess with Jon's head about her visions, which made him more and more anxious and take the threat of the Pink Letter too serious, and eventually led to the stabby-stabby, and her healing attempt that will weaken the wall.

I think, the flaw in the plan is that the blame seems to be on Melisandre as people seem to blame Catelyn for the war between Starks and Lannisters. I get it is traditional to blame it all in a woman or the apple of the discord, but I really would like something a little more elaborated from GRRM. This is why I really like the OP. It is a very interesting analysis of the intricate puzzle of Dany's visions in THotU and the prophecies. Even when I disagree in the use of the word "principle" to the receipt of Varys deceiving behavior and the statement that he doesn't say outright lies. I think Varys uses every tool in his power to meet his ends. Outright lies seem to fit a mummer's show. Those supposed bits of truth in the middle of lies are not clean truths, they are twisted and poisoned because they are out of context. A lie is always a lie, though it "may contain nuts". ;) That "principle" about the "best lies" is the real lie, the characters that speak those lines are corrupted people who use power in a perverted way. That's always the problem with schemers like Varys and Doran, they develop so many parallel world that they get lost in their own wormholes. This is why ASOIAF sometimes reminds me of Interview with the Vampire and Anne Rice's Vampire Chronicles: The main characters are so evil, but they seem not so bad guys because they are protagonists figures. I mean Tyrion, LF or Doran's bloody "wisdom" is the recipe for disaster. I think the same goes for Varys' lectures about power. Dany is not evil per se but she is the typical Sorcerer's Apprentice. She doesn't have brooms, she has dragons instead.

By the way, you've said that Dany doesn't have a song of ice and fire, so who has it? I'm curious about the song, because that is a clue that identifies TPwwP. I mean this Prince or Princess has to be a character that we've already read about. I don't think George is going to pull a rabbit out of the hat in the next books. Magic is growing strong as Tyrells, but that would be too much of a magic trick. Long story short: Jon is Dany's parallel. The books are telling his story, an ode, a ballad, a song about the life of a hero. Jon is Lyanna and Rhaegar's son. So, he is the Son of Ice and Fire. As Dany's parallel, he can work as her song. After all, Dany seems to be Rhaegar reborn, both are the last dragon, the true dragon, mother of dragons, father of dragons, prince/princess who was promised, always the heir of the IT, but never the king/queen... and Jon is Rhaegar's son. All hypothesis and assumptions, but it seems to work and there are no other good theories that work better so far.

[sweetsunray]

I think, the flaw in the plan is that the blame seems to be on Melisandre as people seem to blame Catelyn for the war between Starks and Lannisters. I get it is traditional to blame it all in a woman or the apple of the discord, but I really would like something a little more elaborated from GRRM. This is why I really like the OP. It is a very interesting analysis of the intricate puzzle of Dany's visions in THotU and the prophecies. Even when I disagree in the use of the word "principle" to the receipt of Varys deceiving behavior and the statement that he doesn't say outright lies. I think Varys uses every tool in his power to meet his ends. Outright lies seem to fit a mummer's show. Those supposed bits of truth in the middle of lies are not clean truths, they are twisted and poisoned because they are out of context. A lie is always a lie, though it "may contain nuts". ;) That "principle" about the "best lies" is the real lie, the characters that speak those lines are corrupted people who use power in a perverted way. That's always the problem with schemers like Varys and Doran, they develop so many parallel world that they get lost in their own wormholes. This is why ASOIAF sometimes reminds me of Interview with the Vampire and Anne Rice's Vampire Chronicles: The main characters are so evil, but they seem not so bad guys because they are protagonists figures. I mean Tyrion, LF or Doran's bloody "wisdom" is the recipe for disaster. I think the same goes for Varys' lectures about power. Dany is not evil per se but she is the typical Sorcerer's Apprentice. She doesn't have brooms, she has dragons instead.

By the way, you've said that Dany doesn't have a song of ice and fire, so who has it? I'm curious about the song, because that is a clue that identifies TPwwP. I mean this Prince or Princess has to be a character that we've already read about. I don't think George is going to pull a rabbit out of the hat in the next books. Magic is growing strong as Tyrells, but that would be too much of a magic trick. Long story short: Jon is Dany's parallel. The books are telling his story, an ode, a ballad, a song about the life of a hero. Jon is Lyanna and Rhaegar's son. So, he is the Son of Ice and Fire. As Dany's parallel, he can work as her song. After all, Dany seems to be Rhaegar reborn, both are the last dragon, the true dragon, mother of dragons, father of dragons, prince/princess who was promised, always the heir of the IT, but never the king/queen... and Jon is Rhaegar's son. All hypothesis and assumptions, but it seems to work and there are no other good theories that work better so far.

Seems to me that GRRM writes cascading events that lead to discussions who is the most responsible or who started the train of events. Some would blame Mel, some would blame Bowen, some would blame Jon, others the Pink Letter writer, and so on and on and on. But as I said, I prefer to discuss that theory in the thread I made for it, and to which I posted a link.

It's not because I say that Varys does not lie directly, but uses vagueness, truth and assumption making instead that I think of Varys as a protagonist. Same with the "best lies" principle. The "best lie" observation does not push liars for protagonists. I know what and how a psychopath operates from close life experience. After that experience I needed to understand how such minds work and tick for my own safety. They are pathological liars, but their best lies do indeed have a kernel of truth in them and will present the lie in such a way that you'll end up making assumptions. Does that understanding and recognition of how deception works suddenly make me a fan of psychopaths? That's absurd.

[Lord Varys]

Nothing suggests that the Song of Ice and Fire is a person. Vision Rhaegar said that the song of the promised prince (Aegon in his mind) is the Song of Ice and Fire. In light of the Others it is pretty clear what this means - wars and battles can be called songs or dances, too, which means the Song of Ice and Fire is mainly the coming second War for the Dawn.

Jon Snow has an affinity to ice due to his Stark heritage, but this is only metaphorical. The ancient Targaryens were literally fire mages, the ancient Starks were not (to our knowledge). The only Stark magic active in Jon Snow is skinchanging which has nothing to do with the ice magic the Others are using.

[sweetsunray]

Nothing suggests that the Song of Ice and Fire is a person. Vision Rhaegar said that the song of the promised prince (Aegon in his mind) is the Song of Ice and Fire. In light of the Others it is pretty clear what this means - wars and battles can be called songs or dances, too, which means the Song of Ice and Fire is mainly the coming second War for the Dawn.

Jon Snow has an affinity to ice due to his Stark heritage, but this is only metaphorical. The ancient Targaryens were literally fire mages, the ancient Starks were not (to our knowledge). The only Stark magic active in Jon Snow is skinchanging which has nothing to do with the ice magic the Others are using.

Agreed that the Song of Ice and Fire does not need to be a person. It can involve multiple persons. Or it can be many things in layers, a person, a war, a relation (as in Pact of Ice and Fire). And since that makes the title "song of ice and fire" a metaphor, I don't see why one needs to insist that ancient Valyrians were fire mages and ancient Starks were not Ice mages. Nor would I completely be affirmative of the latter, as after all someone built the wall, which contains magic.

[GravyFace]

The third lie Dany has to slay is easy.

"From a smoking tower, a great stone beast took wing, breathing shadow fire..."

And Osha's description of Mance...

"he's still just another old black crow who flew down from the Shadow Tower."

Rhaegar used his 7th ruby for a glamour the way Mel did. Robert killed some other poor chap at the Trident. Dany has to slay the lie that her brother was killed.

Mance = Rhaegar confirmed.

:p

[Mithras]

Nothing suggests that the Song of Ice and Fire is a person.

Yes it does. Keep reading from this post on for a few pages.