The Slayer of Lies

[Lord Varys]

Open your eyes, clear your mind, and you'll see the truth and the light ;-).

[sweetsunray]

Open your eyes, clear your mind, and you'll see the truth and the light ;-).

That's how I came to the idea of the OP :cool4:

[Julia H.]

Julia H.,

if there were no Others soon attacking and possibly overwhelming everyone and everything in their path I'd agree that a balance between ice and fire is desirable. But not as things are right now. Humanity will need very extreme fire magic to survive the coming winter. We already see Thoros' success in converting people to his faith in the Riverlands simply because he can bring people back from the dead. How much more success will he - or other red priests - have if it turn out that the red priests' fire magic can keep the unnatural cold at bay.

If Jon Snow was embodying/symbolizing a balance between ice and fire he won't stand a chance against the Others, would he? This series does not suggest that we need some kind of mediator or understanding guy to sort out of the conflict between humanity and the Others. The Others don't even try to negotiate or talk to humanity.

It seems that the Others actually were the ones destroying a balance between the ice and fire if such a thing existed - the ancient oath the Reeds swear to the Starks includes 'by ice and fire', suggesting that the Children/First Men knew and practiced those types of magic.

Why would the balance of Ice and Fire mean negotiation between the Others and humans? Humans are not fire. Anyway, I disagree with the above on several points - and I think the fire side being too strong is dangerous, too. Humans don't want to be saved from the ice just to be consumed by fire.

Some say the world will end in fire,

Some say in ice.

From what I’ve tasted of desire

I hold with those who favor fire.

But if it had to perish twice,

I think I know enough of hate

To say that for destruction ice

Is also great

And would suffice.

As for who destroyed the balance of Ice and Fire - it may have been the Others, but that's certainly not the only possibility. I suspect that humans can probably be blamed at least as much as any magical race. I also believe that it must be the humans who solve the problem, no matter how difficult it is, instead of just letting one extreme force finish off the other (the Other); and it actually may take more than simply finding effective enough weapons of mass destruction.

Jon Snow is associated with the Corn King - which means sacrifice but also fertility, the new life, the rebirth of nature, the rebirth of hope. He is not "only" the shield that guards the realms of men, he is also the one being continuously concerned with feeding people. He is associated with peace at least as much as with war.

[Lord Varys]

The Others may actually be (former) humans considering what Craster's wives claimed to know about Craster's sons.

Knowledge may be important, too, of course, but there aren't fire demons trying to transform the world into a huge fiery desert where nobody can live - it is ice demons trying to transform the world into an icy wasteland. They have to be stopped, not the dragons or the some fire mages.

Feeding people will no longer be a concern when the food is as frozen as the corpses who were supposed to eat it.

[sweetsunray]

The Others may actually be (former) humans considering what Craster's wives claimed to know about Craster's sons.

Knowledge may be important, too, of course, but there aren't fire demons trying to transform the world into a huge fiery desert where nobody can live - it is ice demons trying to transform the world into an icy wasteland. They have to be stopped, not the dragons or the some fire mages.

Feeding people will no longer be a concern when the food is as frozen as the corpses who were supposed to eat it.

Those who organized the doom in Valyria would disagree with that

[Lord Varys]

Of course, I'm completely on board with any theory suggesting that the Faceless Men and the Iron Bank, and possibly Braavos as a whole will target Daenerys and her dragons. But Valyria never threatened humanity as a whole - the Others do. And the Targaryen dragon regime was always a pale shadow when compared to the dragonlords of old.

If I was Westerosi commoner living during the coming winter I'd shoving everybody away who also wanted to hide behind Melisandre's or Daenerys' skirts - they have the power to actually make it warm, whereas everybody else is just going to make empty promises.

If George takes his time with the coming winter (i.e. if there are more than two volumes) R'hllor will most certainly become the most popular god in Westeros (and in Essos, too, depending how bad the winter gets there). Right now Melisandre, Moqorro, and the other red priests look ridiculous for praying that R'hllor may let the sun come back the next day - but if 'the Long Night' isn't just a name then the sun is not going to show all that often in winter.

Whoever can make it warm again, whoever can make a fire, and make it light and warm will be worshiped in the coming struggle - and that will be red priests, fire mages, alchemists, and people controlling dragons (i.e. Daenerys and whoever else becomes a dragonrider).

Jon Snow certainly doesn't fit those criteria yet. I'm not saying he'll not eventually become aware of his Targaryen side if he is Rhaegar's son, but this side doesn't seem to be all that dominant.

[Julia H.]

1. The Others may actually be (former) humans considering what Craster's wives claimed to know about Craster's sons.

2. Knowledge may be important, too, of course, but there aren't fire demons trying to transform the world into a huge fiery desert where nobody can live - it is ice demons trying to transform the world into an icy wasteland. They have to be stopped, not the dragons or the some fire mages.

3. Feeding people will no longer be a concern when the food is as frozen as the corpses who were supposed to eat it.

1. Possibly. But I wouldn't say it is known yet.

2. We have heard about a certain fire apocalypse as well. And we have heard of a strange race of people enslaving men using fire as their weapon. How many times has it happened in real history that an ally a country used to get rid of an enemy became the next conqueror? Would eternal summer be a good thing? What will the dragons do after melting all ice? Why would the dominance of Fire be better than the dominance of Ice?

3. Yet, it seems to be an important concept in the novel. Why are they all (even those who don't know about the Others) waiting for spring? It isn't only about the temperature.

Dragons plant no trees.

"Corn", the bird said, and, "King," and, "Snow, Jon Snow, Jon Snow."

Of course, I'm completely on board with any theory suggesting that the Faceless Men and the Iron Bank, and possibly Braavos as a whole will target Daenerys and her dragons. But Valyria never threatened humanity as a whole - the Others do. 1. And the Targaryen dragon regime was always a pale shadow when compared to the dragonlords of old.

2. If I was Westerosi commoner living during the coming winter I'd shoving everybody away who also wanted to hide behind Melisandre's or Daenerys' skirts - they have the power to actually make it warm, whereas everybody else is just going to make empty promises.

If George takes his time with the coming winter (i.e. if there are more than two volumes) R'hllor will most certainly become the most popular god in Westeros (and in Essos, too, depending how bad the winter gets there). Right now Melisandre, Moqorro, and the other red priests look ridiculous for praying that R'hllor may let the sun come back the next day - but if 'the Long Night' isn't just a name then the sun is not going to show all that often in winter.

3. Whoever can make it warm again, whoever can make a fire, and make it light and warm will be worshiped in the coming struggle - and that will be red priests, fire mages, alchemists, and people controlling dragons (i.e. Daenerys and whoever else becomes a dragonrider).

4. Jon Snow certainly doesn't fit those criteria yet. I'm not saying he'll not eventually become aware of his Targaryen side if he is Rhaegar's son, but this side doesn't seem to be all that dominant.

1. Of course, but the dragonlords of old did use fire power as well. The result was mass killing and slavery. They didn't wipe out all humanity, but nor have the Others yet.

2. LOL, I totally understand that, but, please, be careful lest you should burn - literally. "Fire is a cruel way to die."

3. Oh, yes, it's entirely possible that they will be worshipped. And I don't think the red priests are ridiculous right now. I would say some of them are worrying. And it's not only fire that they use, they use shadows as well.

4. Yet, throughout five books, he has been the only one of the major characters who has known what is at stake, who has not played the game of thrones but prepared to protect the realms of men.

[sweetsunray]

Of course, I'm completely on board with any theory suggesting that the Faceless Men and the Iron Bank, and possibly Braavos as a whole will target Daenerys and her dragons. But Valyria never threatened humanity as a whole - the Others do. And the Targaryen dragon regime was always a pale shadow when compared to the dragonlords of old.

If I was Westerosi commoner living during the coming winter I'd shoving everybody away who also wanted to hide behind Melisandre's or Daenerys' skirts - they have the power to actually make it warm, whereas everybody else is just going to make empty promises.

If George takes his time with the coming winter (i.e. if there are more than two volumes) R'hllor will most certainly become the most popular god in Westeros (and in Essos, too, depending how bad the winter gets there). Right now Melisandre, Moqorro, and the other red priests look ridiculous for praying that R'hllor may let the sun come back the next day - but if 'the Long Night' isn't just a name then the sun is not going to show all that often in winter.

Whoever can make it warm again, whoever can make a fire, and make it light and warm will be worshiped in the coming struggle - and that will be red priests, fire mages, alchemists, and people controlling dragons (i.e. Daenerys and whoever else becomes a dragonrider).

Jon Snow certainly doesn't fit those criteria yet. I'm not saying he'll not eventually become aware of his Targaryen side if he is Rhaegar's son, but this side doesn't seem to be all that dominant.

The Others threaten Westeros, not all of humanity and Essos. Valyria enslaved and threatened all of Essos as far as Ashai: with their dragons and fyre wyrms. They were many families and many dragons and fyre wyrms. The Moonsingers and FM didn't cause the doom for nothing. Dany has only 3 dragons, which may or may not start breeding again. Balerion was the "Black Dread" and doesn't the HotU prophecy mention that one of her mounts is one "to dread"?

Meanwhile Dany's dragons will be powerless against Others. They may be fire made flesh, but they're still flesh. They don't do well in storms. Others can cause icestorms, hailstorms, snowstorms. The dragons will perish in that, for sure. Dragons are good for one thing: melting keeps, burning people and wights. The only positive about that is "burning wights".

As for Mel and R'hllor, hang on to your seatbelt, because they are imo the actual "dark side".

[Mithras]

Rhlorr is basically Satan.

[sweetsunray]

Rhlorr is basically Satan.

Yup

[Lord Varys]

Julia H.,

the important point about the Others is that they aren't described as a people living aside/with the Children or the First Men, suggesting that they didn't exist back then - or they lived up in the Lands of Always Winter and nobody knew about them. But considering that it is effectively confirmed that the freak seasons aren't the normal state of affairs, my guess is that the origin of the Others is intertwined with the season mess.

I'd say eternal summer would be a good thing. Especially since there are climate zones where it is always effectively summer in our world as well as in Martinword - go to Sothoryos/the Summer Isles or Australia ;-).

Food shortage and regular cold and stuff won't become a problem this winter - that's for normal long winters. This winters the Others and the wights will kill a lot of people long before they starve to death. Having food won't matter when the wights come knocking...

Dragons have planted lots of trees in the last centuries - Aegon I, Jaehaerys I, and Daeron II didn't exactly cut or burn down any trees. Daenerys embraces a particular outlook right now, but that must not be true simply because her visions (or delusions) tell her that. Not to mention that it refers to her situation in Meereen - is she going to not plant trees in Westeros, too? I don't think so.

I'm not saying Valyrian society was great - and the Targaryens in Westeros weren't the dragonlords - but it is quite clear that the Valyrians would never have killed all humanity. The Long Night seemed to have affected the whole world, and if the Others are going to be a real threat it will turn out that they caused it back then, and will cause a similar event now, or else people should better see to their food stores since all that is going to happen is that they might starve.

The red priests and their followers are ridiculous because they are religious nuts. And because lots of their chanting is carefully crafted to resemble certain Catholic chantings... Speculating about the gods is pointless since George himself has repeatedly stated that they won't show up. R'hllor has about as much to do with Satan than Zeus or Baal.

Didn't Jon Snow begin playing the game of thrones and was killed for that in the last book? He sent Mance Rayder to abduct (or 'save') his sister Arya from her rightful husband, and intended to march against Winterfell in defiance of what the NW stands for. If Dany was in KL things would be much clearer right now - Jon Snow's (potentially) mortal tragedy may be that the Others get to him long before Dany and her dragons arrive.

sweetsunray,

we don't know why the Faceless Men caused the Doom. Perhaps it was something as trivial as revenge or rightful payback? We don't know how strong their religious tenants are - or rather, how pragmatic they are in truth. If all men die, then it actually makes no matter who you kill - and the fact that you can buy their service to kill people suggests that they are much more pragmatic than ACoK originally indicated.

Dany's dragons won't be powerless against the Others. They will be crucial in whatever is going to happen in the end. That much is clear since Daenerys' prophetic dream from AGoT.

[Julia H.]

Julia H.,

the important point about the Others is that they aren't described as a people living aside/with the Children or the First Men, suggesting that they didn't exist back then - or they lived up in the Lands of Always Winter and nobody knew about them. But considering that it is effectively confirmed that the freak seasons aren't the normal state of affairs, my guess is that the origin of the Others is intertwined with the season mess.

I'd say eternal summer would be a good thing. Especially since there are climate zones where it is always effectively summer in our world as well as in Martinword - go to Sothoryos/the Summer Isles or Australia ;-).

Food shortage and regular cold and stuff won't become a problem this winter - that's for normal long winters. This winters the Others and the wights will kill a lot of people long before they starve to death. Having food won't matter when the wights come knocking...

Dragons have planted lots of trees in the last centuries - Aegon I, Jaehaerys I, and Daeron II didn't exactly cut or burn down any trees. Daenerys embraces a particular outlook right now, but that must not be true simply because her visions (or delusions) tell her that. Not to mention that it refers to her situation in Meereen - is she going to not plant trees in Westeros, too? I don't think so.

I'm not saying Valyrian society was great - and the Targaryens in Westeros weren't the dragonlords - but it is quite clear that the Valyrians would never have killed all humanity. The Long Night seemed to have affected the whole world, and if the Others are going to be a real threat it will turn out that they caused it back then, and will cause a similar event now, or else people should better see to their food stores since all that is going to happen is that they might starve.

The red priests and their followers are ridiculous because they are religious nuts. And because lots of their chanting is carefully crafted to resemble certain Catholic chantings... Speculating about the gods is pointless since George himself has repeatedly stated that they won't show up. R'hllor has about as much to do with Satan than Zeus or Baal.

Didn't Jon Snow begin playing the game of thrones and was killed for that in the last book? He sent Mance Rayder to abduct (or 'save') his sister Arya from her rightful husband, and intended to march against Winterfell in defiance of what the NW stands for. If Dany was in KL things would be much clearer right now - Jon Snow's (potentially) mortal tragedy may be that the Others get to him long before Dany and her dragons arrive.

My guess is that food shortage is a problem during every long winter. The longer the summer, the longer the winter. It is known. After ten years of summer, food shortage is going to be a problem - if the winter lasts as long as the summer did. Having said that, yes, the Others represent a more immediate threat, but food is a serious question even during the war, as various characters in-story have noted.

I'm not saying all Targaryens are bad, although I'm pretty sure that Aegon I burned down a lot of trees with his dragon. Of course, the trees weren't his primary target... I'm not particularly fond of the way he conquered Westeros.

The Valyrians would never have killed all humanity - they needed the slaves. Who knows, the Others might need some living humans, too. Just think of Craster.

The Red Priests: Rattleshirt fled from the Others and ended up behind Melisandre's skirt. He didn't seem to be any happier there.

Jon Snow didn't start playing the game, it was the game that found him. In my opinion, his action was not "in defiance of what the NW stands for". Do you really think that trying to rescue his sister (whom he believed to be a helpless little girl with no one to protect her), then reacting to a direct threat (that involved the NW) from a man who was destroying the remaining resources of the North instead of preparing them for the battle for the Dawn wipes out everything he had done and was still going to do to protect the people of the realm? And whose advice did he follow when he sent Mance to Winterfell? It was the fiery Red Priestess' advice, and if he had listened to her earlier, he would have deserted the NW for real and much earlier to really play the game of thrones.

Jon may die fighting the Others... But I don't expect that the story will end with Dany arriving on dragon-back in the last moment, instantly eliminating the Others and gloriously saving the poor, helpless and dragonless people while the courage, knowledge and sacrifice of all who fought there before her will count for nothing.

[Lyse Stark]

Rhlorr is basically Satan.

Exactly. If you google Lucifer's story, you find that he was cast out of the Heavens because he defied YVWH(that is God's name in the Hebrew Bible). And often our favourite fallen angel stay close to holy place, tempting these down a darker path as Satan.

"How you have fallen from heaven, morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations! You said in your heart, 'I will ascend to the heavens; I will raise my throne above the stars of God; I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly, on the utmost heights of Mount Zaphon. I will ascend above the tops of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High.' But you are brought down to the realm of the dead, to the depths of the pit. Those who see you stare at you, they ponder your fate: 'Is this the man who shook the earth and made kingdoms tremble, the man who made the world a wilderness, who overthrew its cities and would not let his captives go home?'"

From Isiaiah 14 in the Old Testament.

From this he was a conqueror and tried to take over other nations; Sounds like a certain group of dragon lords?

The underworld is a metaphor for death, and to be cast down there mean you are killed. Is it possible that R'hllor might be cast down after his lies is exposed for all to behold?

R'hllor believe all should worship him; it doesn't bode well for Dany when she allies with the Red Faith. Is it possible that Dany may accidentally slay the lie that the Lord of Light is benovelent with her own actions, thus proving once and for all that the claim that Azor Ahai waking dragons from stone actually is false?

[Ramsay Gimp]

1) It doesn't depict him, and yet it's about him. So, it's not literal, but a metaphor.

I'm not sure you understand the concept of a metaphor. Crowds cheering Aegon's banner is foreshadowing, but it still a literal image that will probably happen in a literal way

2) I didn't argue that in a fantasy novel we can't have a stone dragon like beast flying out of a smoking tower. I asked you that in that series of metaphors at that particular moment a literal one would make any sense? It doesnt.

There is no "series of metaphors." The only slightly metaphorical aspect of the three visions is Stannis casting no shadow. Otherwise they are fairly straightforward. What wouldn't make sense would be to show us an image of Stannis, then an image of crowds cheering Aegon, and then show some weird stone monster to represent something else entirely.

[Lord Varys]

Julia H.,

the food shortage will effectively become an academic question/problem as George's writing speed doesn't suggest we'll see this winter reaching its third or fourth year, yet alone its sixth or seventh. And the end of the War of the Dawn should actually change the seasons back to normal, resulting in an immediate spring.

Well, the Valyrians also built this huge city of theirs as well as lots and lots of other cities and pretty great streets. They built stuff, they did not only destroy things.

I actually think the Craster situation is more something like a temporary agreement while they don't yet control everything/still are in need of certain things. That may change when they have won their war. Not to mention that it seems they were becoming kind of greedy. Craster doesn't have any big living animals left, suggesting that he had to give/sacrifice them to the Others.

Generally ADwD and TWoIaF suggest that all types of magic involve gruesome rituals and sacrifices, not just Valyrian blood and fire magic. Best examples are the disgusting blood sacrifices and rites of the First Men as well as the Children supposedly sacrificing their own children to cause the Breaking.

Jon Snow got what he was coming, and Ramsay/Roose are legally completely in the right there. Just imagine if it has been Robb marrying a girl and a Lannister bastard had been serving as Lord Commander of the NW and decided to dispatch an agent to Winterfell to abduct the girl. It wasn't his right to do that, he interfered directly with the politics of the Realm. Using the Pink Letter as an excuse works only if you ignore what happened to lead up to it, and he simply shouldn't have done that. Perhaps he shouldn't have been listening to Mel, but that's no excuse - he signed off on it, and subsequently payed the price for it. Just as Cersei got what she deserved for trying to mess with the High Septon. If you make mistakes in this series you pay the price.

I don't think the dragons will come to the rescue - although this will be the case if there are only two more volumes, simply because Dany won't arrive in Westeros during TWoW - my guess is that they will already be in Westeros while the Others crisis is going to unfold. After all, if there is a Second Dance it will involve dragons and it will take place (mostly) in Westeros. Thus the dragons won't fly to the rescue they will rather become part of the overall war effort - and, who knows, perhaps they won't be enough. Perhaps the guys needs something more effective - but I don't have any clue what that might be.

I'm not sure there will be much heroic fighting against the Others prior to the fighting involving the dragons. George is continuing to destroy the forces that could oppose the Others. A lot of men will die at Winterfell/in the village, and Jon's death could result in another civil war/conflict at the Wall leading to the destruction of the NW or lots of more wildling deaths. I could easily see Bowen Marsh beginning to execute the hostages Jon took should the wildlings try to avenge Jon Snow. In any case, there won't be a unified attempt to attack/oppose the Others - which means once the Others make their move and destroy or circumvent the Wall everything will collapse, and it will collapse hard. The whole North should fall into the hands of the Others in a heart beat considering that there are not many people left to oppose them nor does anyone have the tools to even slow down their march. Not to mention that a physical destruction of the Wall through an earthquake could actually kill everyone in the castles at the Wall - unless the people are forewarned and retreat down south.

[Ramsay Gimp]

Julia H.,

the food shortage will effectively become an academic question/problem as George's writing speed doesn't suggest we'll see this winter reaching its third or fourth year, yet alone its sixth or seventh. And the end of the War of the Dawn should actually change the seasons back to normal, resulting in an immediate spring.

Well, the Valyrians also built this huge city of theirs as well as lots and lots of other cities and pretty great streets. They built stuff, they did not only destroy things.

I actually think the Craster situation is more something like a temporary agreement while they don't yet control everything/are in need to certain things. That may change when they have won their war. Not to mention that it seems they were becoming kind of greedy. Craster doesn't have any big living animals left, suggesting that he had to give/sacrifice them to the Others.

Generally ADwD and TWoIaF suggest that all types of magic involve gruesome rituals and sacrifices, not just Valyrian blood and fire magic. Best examples are the disgusting blood sacrifices and rites of the First Men as well as the Children supposedly sacrificing their own children to cause the Breaking.

Jon Snow got what he was coming, and Ramsay/Roose are legally completely in the right there. Just imagine if it has been Robb marrying a girl and a Lannister bastard had been serving as Lord Commander of the NW and decided to send an agent to Winterfell to abduct the girl. It wasn't his right to do that, he interfered directly with the politics of the Realm. Using the Pink Letter as an excuse works only if you ignore what happened to lead up to it, and he simply shouldn't have done that. Perhaps he shouldn't have been listening to Mel, but that's not excuse - he signed off on it, and subsequently pays the price for it. Just as Cersei got what she deserved for trying to mess with the High Septon. If you make mistakes in this series you pay the price.

I don't think the dragons will come to the rescue - although this will be the case if there are only two more volumes - my guess is that they will already be in Westeros while the Others crisis is going to unfold. After all, if there is a Second Dance it will involve dragons and it will take place (mostly) in Westeros. Thus the dragons won't fly to the rescue they will rather become part of the overall war effort - and, who knows, perhaps they won't be enough. Perhaps the guys needs something more effective - but I don't have any clue what that might be.

I'm not sure there will be much heroic fighting against the Others prior to the fighting involving the dragons. George is continuing to destroy the forces that could oppose the Others. A lot of men will die at Winterfell/in the village, and Jon's death could result in another civil war/conflict at the Wall leading to the destruction of the NW or lots of more wildling deaths. I could easily see Bowen Marsh beginning to execute the hostages Jon took should the wildlings try to avenge Jon Snow. In any case, there won't be a unified attempt to attack/oppose the Others - which means once the Others make their move and destroy or circumvent the Wall everything will collapse, and it will collapse hard. The whole North should fall into the hands of the Others in heart beat considering that there are not many people left to oppose nor does anyone have the tools to even slow down their march. Not to mention that a physical destruction of the Wall through an earthquake could actually kill everyone in the castles at the Wall - unless the people are forewarned.

:agree: I approve this message

[Lyse Stark]

I'm not sure you understand the concept of a metaphor. Crowds cheering Aegon's banner is foreshadowing, but it still a literal image that will probably happen in a literal way

There is no "series of metaphors." The only slightly metaphorical aspect of the three visions is Stannis casting no shadow. Otherwise they are fairly straightforward. What wouldn't make sense would be to show us an image of Stannis, then an image of crowds cheering Aegon, and then show some weird stone monster to represent something else entirely.

It is easy; a mummer's dragon is one that can be easily manipulated to present a certain image of a saviour. Both Aegon and Dany are examples, for different reason. Aegon has been isolated and groomed to be a king to the point that he is easy to mislead and manipulate. He is somewhat rash and impulsive because of this upbringing and in the TWOW book, this nature will get him killed just like Robb Stark.

Dany is illiterate and uneducated. She, like Aegon is naive and often trust the wrong people, as evidenced by Mirri Daz Duur and The Green Grace. She often don't know what it takes to rule, and often end up bungling stuff because she is not educated in the finer points of ruling. And I wouldn't be surprised if she royally screwed her chances of ruling Westeros up because she allied with the Red Faith. There are a myriad of reasons why the Faith of the Seven wouldn't want to have the Lord Of Light sharing its domains; the most important ones being blood sacriface, and how R'hllor believes himself to be the one true God and all must kneel before him.

[Lady Darry]

From this he was a conqueror and tried to take over other nations; Sounds like a certain group of dragon lords?

Dragonlords and Tags were not the only ones conquering, enslaving and taking over other nations. It is kinda a thing in history in general. GRRM said that European history inspired him (Dance of the dragons=The Anarchy, Rhaenyra=empress Matilda...), not Bible. So it is a stretch to compare them to Satan.

[Lyse Stark]

Double post - sorry!

[Ramsay Gimp]

It is easy; a mummer's dragon is one that can be easily manipulated to present a certain image of a saviour. Both Aegon and Dany are examples, for different reason. Aegon has been isolated and groomed to be a king to the point that he is easy to mislead and manipulate. He is somewhat rash and impulsive because of this upbringing and in the TWOW book, this nature will get him killed just like Robb Stark.

Dany is illiterate and uneducated. She, like Aegon is naive and often trust the wrong people, as evidenced by Mirri Daz Duur and The Green Grace. She often don't know what it takes to rule, and often end up bungling stuff because she is not educated in the finer points of ruling. And I wouldn't be surprised if she royally screwed her chances of ruling Westeros up because she allied with the Red Faith. There are a myriad of reasons why the Faith of the Seven wouldn't want to have the Lord Of Light sharing its domains; the most important ones being blood sacriface, and how R'hllor believes himself to be the one true God and all must kneel before him.

What's this in response to?