R+L=J v. 148

[Alia of the knife]

He said, that it has to be a Dayne.

I doubt that a Dayne great great great grandmother is enough to claim Dawn, then half of Westeros could claim Dawn.

Btw, I always wondered why was Brandon/Ned the one who dishonored Ashara? Selmy said 'might she have looked to me instead of Stark?' wouldn't that mean Ashara looked to Start because she was seeking solace-it would add to Dayne gratitude towards Ned? He said this when he was thinking about his vow to celibacy, so he didn't think she would sleep with him instead of Stark. But she could seek solace with him...

But Lady Dustin said that Ned brought Lyanna bones to Winterfell, which implies that she died somewhere else.

If we take into acount that Lyanna's wolf blood means she died in an alteration, then it could mean Rhaegar raped her. Her wolf blood, that brothel thing and TOJ are some of the hints she was not raped. But if we don't count wolf blood then she could still be raped. After all Gregor Clegane also doesn't visit Chataya's brothel. Are you saying that Rhaegar abducted Jon and that this was a reason why Robert was angry (”He could still hear Sansa pleading, as Lyanna had pleaded once.” We could interpret this as Lyanna being afraid someone will take her baby. Sansa was afraid they will kill Lady and maybe Lyanna was also afraid that someone will take Jon from her...)?

But I definitely agree, that Ned had a problem with Rhaegar. He agreed that he had to die, and when he was remembering Rhaegar, he did so uncomfortably (I really don't know where the idea that Ned is neutral towards Rhaegar comes...)

Jon as the son of Rhaegar, as well as Lyanna, (see my observation about the Stark females marrying into some very influential families), then Jons blood line is related to by way of Stark/Targaryen everyone from the Martells, Daynes, Blackwoods and the Vale.

As far as the significance of who/why Ashara turned to, you have to look at the time that Martin is referencing. This is a time where people are obsessed with rank and status. The Starks are coming from the far-flung north where they are probably as foreign to the rest of Westeros as the Martells.

Ned is a second son whose only future is to make his own, or become a Castellan for Brandon unless Rickard has other estates or lands he can give Ned. Benjen would probably have to go a soldiering.

If we are talking about righting a wrong, first, Ashara is not going to have this discussion with any other male than the males involved because women didn't have those conversations outside the men in their family. It would be for her and Arthurs older brother to take up the issue.

But say she is trying to keep things a secret, then she is only going to the persons directly involved with her situation.

Brandon would be hard-put to have any influence with anyone outside the pack, much less a shy, second son Ned Stark, which is why I say "Stark" is Ned. If Brandon seduced Ashara, then she is going to Ned for help because Ned is the only person who is going to have sway to take up her cause with either Brandon or Rickard.

If Ashara got pregnant at Harrenhal, she needs a name for baby, and maybe a claim as she is not a peasant girl.

As is stood, it sounds that her proximity to the royal family didn't help her either as even Elia would have been forced to send her from court when her condition became known as they aren't in Dorne.

[IMNHAAO]

............

Still lots of problems--don't know if/how/why they "ran off" together, just that it's generally accepted that they did....

The why is the most troublesome, even if one assumes that they both fell in love, why run off? Targs had a history of polygamy, Dornish people have a tradition of keeping paramours and we are talking of the Prince of the realm. What prevented them from going forward in a wiser way? They both seemed to be fairly intelligent people, they should have know that running off was the worst possible solution. Especially if she had not made clear that she was going of her own volition. Usually a note suffices.

....

As to why Lyanna would want to be with a married man -- I agree that analysis gets tricky. But I think the clues are there to give the readers a fairly good idea why she would be persuaded to be with a married man. Elia could have no more children. Either because she could not get pregnant again -- or, I think more likely, a third birth would almost certainly kill her if she carried the child to term. Either way, Rhaegar is not in love with Elia and either cannot risk having sex with Elia or, at a minimum, has no need to ever have sex with Elia again. Under these circumstances, Lyanna might be convinced that Rhaegar will stay to one bed -- Lyanna's bed. And if she became convinced that a polygamous marriage is an option and married Rhaegar, then we know why she stayed with him -- he was her husband. We have some clues that they were married -- although admittedly not 100% definitive. But such a marriage, taken together with Elia no longer able to have children, would resolve your issues as to why Lyanna would want to be with Rhaegar. So there are theories that address your problems with the theory. There may be different explanations, but the existence of at least one plausible explanation means that there are not "problems" with the theory, we just cannot be 100% certain which explanation for the theory is correct.

It is a possibility which is not without its merits, but it requires a change of heart of not small entity on her part. She was almost obliged to marry who she was promised to, so whoring or not she had little choice, running off with Rhaegar meant dis-regardng all her previous misgivings and accepting the idea of a polygamous union which was not at all common for non Targaryen. A big, big change, maybe for a big big love, but so fast after so little... I really don't know...

And again the problem is if not this what? Where are other clues? I never see her in any situation with anyone else,. I cannot see any other option which isn't even more ludicrous. :bang:

[Sly Wren]

The why is the most troublesome, even if one assumes that they both fell in love, why run off? Targs had a history of polygamy, Dornish people have a tradition of keeping paramours and we are talking of the Prince of the realm. What prevented them from going forward in a wiser way? They both seemed to be fairly intelligent people, they should have know that running off was the worst possible solution. Especially if she had not made clear that she was going of her own volition. Usually a note suffices.

Ha! So that's the problem--Lyanna wrote it all out, but slammed the door on her way to elope. Note flew into the fire--catastrophe ensued.

It is a possibility which is not without its merits, but it requires a change of heart of not small entity on her part. She was almost obliged to marry who she was promised to, so whoring or not she had little choice, running off with Rhaegar meant dis-regardng all her previous misgivings and accepting the idea of a polygamous union which was not at all common for non Targaryen. A big, big change, maybe for a big big love, but so fast after so little... I really don't know...

And again the problem is if not this what? Where are other clues? I never see her in any situation with anyone else,. I cannot see any other option which isn't even more ludicrous. :bang:

Completely agree--when you look at what Martin actually gives us--coming up with workable solutions seems to require mental gymnastics. And possibly a fire baton. Really need the next books.

[MtnLion]

He said, that it has to be a Dayne.

It looks to me as though GRRM said that the title "Sword of the Morning" was a Dayne family title awarded to a Dayne that was judged worthy to wield Dawn. It is possible that Dawn wielding is not limited to Daynes, but that is devil's advocate in me. Sure blew up my recollections. ;)

[Alia of the knife]

I don't deny that Selmy could have known--but he never says how or why he knows. He says things similar to Viserys--whom no one with the sense god gave a goat should trust. He gives what seems to be the loyalist-oriented story.

Selmy really might know. And I think he believes what he says--but we don't have the how or why he "knows" this--we have to fill that in. Ned never says--and he really should know, since he found Lyanna. Robert rambles. Cersei--is just Cersei--no reason to trust her at all.

My point--we don't know what happened. Selmy gives no evidence. Even the World Book equivocates--says it's so well known it's not worth mentioning--or something to that effect. Selmy might know. But until we have evidence that doesn't require lots of filling in blanks--it's only a possibility, not gospel.

That's actually my point--why on earth is the Lord of Starfall talking about this of all things? It's bizarre. And Edric doesn't seem awkward per se--or at least his manners are much better than mine were at 12 (which may be more a commentary about myself than Edric).

Just think there's a reason why he's saying it, why he's stressing the connection. Why Martin is bringing in the Daynes, and Starfall, and milk-borthers and all of it. Otherwise, it's one whoppingly weird conversation. But definitely need more evidence--just a possibility a present.

We definitely agree on Edric, and as far as Arya goes, not at great thing to say about a girls father on the first "date." :laugh:

As for Selmy, the way I read how he seemed to be holding back, or hiding some things from Dany, I just read that as Martins way of "keep reading," but my sense it that Selmy has the authors voice whereas Viserys is the backdrop for highligthing the fact that probably both he and Dany got the "cleaned-up" version of what happened whereas the Stark children got the "dirty," so as it always is with the truth, its somewhere in between.

[Sly Wren]

We definitely agree on Edric, and as far as Arya goes, not at great thing to say about a girls father on the first "date." :laugh:

As for Selmy, the way I read how he seemed to be holding back, or hiding some things from Dany, I just read that as Martins way of "keep reading," but my sense it that Selmy has the authors voice whereas Viserys is the backdrop for highligthing the fact that probably both he and Dany got the "cleaned-up" version of what happened whereas the Stark children got the "dirty," so as it always is with the truth, its somewhere in between.

HA! Plus, saying "so, I hear you like bastards" to your date's father--who owns a large sword--not brilliant strategy.

And fully agree Selmy knows a lot of things he seems to be editing for Dany--taking his time on the reveal so as not to overwhelm her and/or lose her trust. Probably also just out of respect for her. Does that include the Rhaegar and Lyanna story or is he just giving the standard loyalist interp? Don't know yet. But it is possible he knows.

[Alia of the knife]

When Robert's betrothal ends is never specified, but Robert states

I had no wish to marry after Lyanna was taken from me, but Jon said the realm needed an heir.

Yet does he mean "taken" as in "kidnapped", or "taken" as in "she died"? He doesn't specify. However, with the story in Westeros that Robert fought to win Lyanna back (why would there be people in Westeros believing that Robert had been fighting for Lyanna while his betrothal to her was clearly over?) , and the fact that he named a ship in his fleet after her, I'm inclined to say the second option is the correct one.

If Gendry's mother had been living in KL, than Robert won't have been able to conceive Gendry with her until he himself reached KL, which was after the Sack. Unless Gendry's mother had originally been living elsewhere (Riverlands, for example), and had met Robert while on campaign and had followed him in her pregnant state to KL, where she got a job working in an alehouse, eventually, Gendry won't have been conceived during the Rebellion itself, but in the first few months after, I think..

Again, given the times, if Lyanna had been brought back alive, it would have been hard for Robert as king to take her to wife as she would be considered "damaged goods."

As to his personal preference, I don't know. I sometimes think the pride in him would chafe at her not being a maiden when they married. Henry the VII made Elizabeth of York wait almost a year after their betrothal to marry her to make sure she did not carry the child of Richard III, rumored to have been her lover and whom she wanted to marry.

[Alia of the knife]

but frankly Rhaegar seems to have been good to look at, intelligent, a good warrior it would be strange if she had not wanted to go. Well ok there was the wife + kids issue.. But then again a young girl might have not even considered....

If George doesn't speed up his writing I will be sending him my psychiatrist's bills. :wacko:

Which is why I tread with caution as well because Lyanna actually might have been a Howland kind of girl, and neither Robert or Rhaegar appealed to her despite both being gorg.

Disclaimer to all who read this: That is not a theory, just making a point.

I sometimes wonder if she was initially indifferent to Robert until he disappointed her? The way she speaks makes me think she very much cared that he wouldn't keep to her bed.

If she didn't care, she wouldn't care, she might have even been relieved, I know I would be.

"Gotcha yourself a mistress? Great, I'm going to go play and spend your money, and I don't have to sleep with you-often." :D

On that last, to think I came to this forum on the advice of my doctor who told me due to the job, that I was worrying myself into an early grave, and to go find something to take my mind off of it that wasn't stressful, emphasis and irony on that last. :wacko:

[The Twinslayer]

Except GRRM must have known who was the mother (and father) in 1999 and would not change his mind later. So if Dany's birth is nailed down in GoT, as you suggest, then by saying 8-9 months, it must be consistent with who GRRM knew was the mother (and father) at that time based on what the readers were told about the war in GoT. We know that Rhaella leaves for DS shortly before the war ends. So by saying 8-9 months apart, GRRM had to be considering Jon to have been born around the end of the war -- or at least who his mother (and father) is has to be consistent with that even if he changed other details about the war later. Now being born near the end of the war does not, in and of itself, eliminate any of those women from being Jon's mother. But it eliminates certain people from being his father (like Robert or Brandon, as the war is described in GoT as lasting about a year, at least I think that statement was in GoT) and eliminates the J&D are twins theories.

I don't agree, because you are speculating now on why GRRM said things in an SSM and then decided not to use them in the book. It is possible, as you suggest, that he gave that time frame for Jon's birth because it was consistent with who he knew to be the mother and father. It is also possible that he planned to give us that time frame in ASOS but decided not to do that because he realized that it would be impossible to reconcile with the whereabouts of the actual parents.

So assume for a second that the Robert and Lyanna are Jon's parents, and that, when he gave the SSM, he planned to plant a red herring in the form of a Ned/Ashara meeting 9 months before Jon was born. Further assume he planned to do this by making explicit that Jon was born around the time of the Sack, and giving us a Ned/Ashara meeting 9 months before that. Then he gets the question that is designed to establish that Ashara is not the mother. So he gives the SSM hinting at his plan. But then assume he thinks about it some more and realizes that this plan will rule out the possibility that Robert and Lyanna are the parents. So he has to scrap the plan.

That would leave us right where we are today: there is an SSM out here that says we'll get a story about Ashara's movements during the Rebellion in ASOS (and giving a range of time for Jon's birth), followed by no mention of it in ASOS.