R+L=J v. 148

[Ygrain]

Ok got you.

Wait no symbolism for Mance!!! Really?

Him being in the right place at the right time eh i don't know.I haven't seen the Mance essay yet so maybe it will be answered,maybe not.

No symbolism for Mance tying him to Lyanna. What symbolism is Lyanna associated with? A crown of blue roses. Even if you take the Bael story into consideration as a proxy for Mance, Mance himself has never, not once, appeared on the same page with blue roses, not to mention a crown of them.

Is there any other symbolism for Lyanna?

Why don't we hear of Mance, or a wildling/NW brother or any other identification for him in Ned's PoV?

- Alright, let's wait for the essay.

[BearQueen87]

I don't think it would be "cheap and pointless and bad writing" lulling most of the hardcore fan base into thinking that R+L=J is true and then actually revealing that it was a red herring and Jon having different parents would surprise many in the fan base. It would be very fascinating because so many people would be blindsided by it.

But you're assuming that GRRM would know that people would be blind sided. That he predicted that RLJ would become the popular theory and that he would have a hardcore fanbase and that he had this clever plan all along. OR: RLJ is simply...true.

[wolfmaid7]

Looking into cannon is dangerous business, that best be left to trained artillerymen. Especially when one is looking for proof of sex. The nervous tension can set things off.

Seriously, you are of course right that there are no first hand accounts of witnesses to sex between Lyanna and Rhaegar, but there are plenty clues of attraction between the two and proximity during the right time. That counts for something when trying to figure this mess out.

Where???

[Prince of Ghost]

Fine. Hearsay. I'll concede that I used a wrong word while typing quickly. This does not, however, dismiss all the evidence that does point to RLJ.

But the evidence for Mance--at least what I read people point to--really just seems like evidence for Rhaegar, like Bael the Bard story (which as many have already pointed out is pretty closely linked to RLJ). So, forgive me, but what else is there?

Yes hearsay is a better word, I wasn't trying to be mean I just wanted to make sure I was understanding what you were saying because stated explicit evidence and hearsay are very different. "Evidence" gets thrown around here a lot but the reality is that it is mostly symoblism and hearsay and such. Evidence is hard to come by in this series.

[Sly Wren]

No he hasn't boxed himself in. He's still in charge of this shindig and if he chooses to suddenly go, "nope. It was Brandon and Lyanna/ Lyanna and Arthur/ Ned and Ashara/ Ned and Random Peasant #45661/ Jon was hatched from an egg and is secretly the spaghetti monster!" then he is entitled to do since it's his creative genius, not mine. But, as a reader, I'm entitled to say that's cheap and pointless and bad writing after 5 books and constant clues for RLJ while every other theory is cast down in light of the timeline or evidence.

Except the spaghetti monster of course. That one is obviously true.

Agreed--which is what I said when I read that ridiculous Lyssa monologue.

And agreed--a few people have symbolic ties to Lyanna and/or Jon. Rhaegar has that confirmed contact with the rose crown--that's why he strongest for me. And am almost 95% sure Lyanna is Jon's mother--roses, bed of blood--all confirmed in Ned's memory.

But it's not enough to exclude. Not yet. Especially when Martin makes us fill in so much on our own at present.

Though be careful with that spaghetti thing--you know someone might take it and run with it. . . Pasta a la Jon.

[wolfmaid7]

Fine. Hearsay. I'll concede that I used a wrong word while typing quickly. This does not, however, dismiss all the evidence that does point to RLJ.

But the evidence for Mance--at least what I read people point to--really just seems like evidence for Rhaegar, like Bael the Bard story (which as many have already pointed out is pretty closely linked to RLJ). So, forgive me, but what else is there?

That there is a problem!!! You can't do that and say its evidence for Rhaegar.If the same bit if evidence applies to Rhaegar yes.But you just put Rhaegar as default which is an incorrect way. He is a prospect like any other until GRRM says canon.

There is no rule saying evidence can't point to two different people and have one be wrong and the other right.Inis in concert with other elements makes a strong case.That being said,i haven't seen the Mance essay so i can't say.It depends on the arguement.

[BearQueen87]

Yes hearsay is a better word, I wasn't trying to be mean I just wanted to make sure I was understanding what you were saying because stated explicit evidence and hearsay are very different. "Evidence" gets thrown around here a lot but the reality is that it is mostly symoblism and hearsay and such. Evidence is hard to come by in this series.

But why are you dismissing symbolic evidence as evidence for RLJ? This is still literature where symbolism can be used for evidence. R using his "lance" to place a crown of blue roses in L "lap." Yeah, they had sex. That is a sex metaphor if ever I read one. The question becomes not "did R and L have sex?" but rather "what was the nature of their relationship?"

Agreed--which is what I said when I read that ridiculous Lyssa monologue.

And agreed--a few people have symbolic ties to Lyanna and/or Jon. Rhaegar has that confirmed contact with the rose crown--that's why he strongest for me. And am almost 95% sure Lyanna is Jon's mother--roses, bed of blood--all confirmed in Ned's memory.

But it's not enough to exclude. Not yet. Especially when Martin makes us fill in so much on our own at present.

Though be careful with that spaghetti thing--you know someone might take it and run with it. . . Pasta a la Jon.

If Jon is a spaghetti monster then I want full credit. You heard it here first, folks.

[Prince of Ghost]

But you're assuming that GRRM would know that people would be blind sided. That he predicted that RLJ would become the popular theory and that he would have a hardcore fanbase and that he had this clever plan all along. OR: RLJ is simply...true.

It is possible that he thought readers would question the Ned Stark+ Wylla=Jon story and would search for possible clues on the identity of Jon's parents and stumble upon and think over the idea of R+L=J.

[-Ghost-]

I love when people come on here with nothing but "George never specifically said this didn't happen!" as their only evidence. It's your job to provide details from the text to support your theory. You don't just make some bs up and say prove me wrong.

[Prince of Ghost]

But why are you dismissing symbolic evidence as evidence for RLJ? This is still literature where symbolism can be used for evidence. R using his "lance" to place a crown of blue roses in L "lap." Yeah, they had sex. That is a sex metaphor if ever I read one. The question becomes not "did R and L have sex?" but rather "what was the nature of their relationship?"

If Jon is a spaghetti monster then I want full credit. You heard it here first, folks.

Well at least to me symbolism is not evidence. Evidence to me would be cannon stating Lyanna and Rhaegar had sex from someone who witnessed it or from one of the two themselves. To me it is a far jump from Rheagar placing a crown of blue roses in Lyanna's lap to that means they were having sex. Far leap to me at least.

[BearQueen87]

It is possible that he thought readers would question the Ned Stark+ Wylla=Jon story and would search for possible clues on the identity of Jon's parents and stumble upon and think over the idea of R+L=J.

I have no doubt that GRRM wants us to question Ned + Wylla = Jon (the way he sets up that story alongside Ned's character and the fact that he gives the reader other possibilities--like Ashara and the Fisherman's Wife-- makes the reader want to question it. GRRM designed it that way). But I don't think he wants us to then fall into RLJ only to blindsided by some other truth. What you're suggesting is that GRRM knew/suspected :

1) People would question NWJ

2) People would become hardcore fans of his books and discuss every bit of mystery in his series.

3) People would latch on to RLJ after becoming hardcore fans

He can know the first since he (clearly IMO) wrote it that way. He cannot know the second nor the third. His books were just as likely to never be successful, to never gain a following, to never be picked apart the way we do pick them apart.

[LmL]

But why are you dismissing symbolic evidence as evidence for RLJ? This is still literature where symbolism can be used for evidence. R using his "lance" to place a crown of blue roses in L "lap." Yeah, they had sex. That is a sex metaphor if ever I read one. The question becomes not "did R and L have sex?" but rather "what was the nature of their relationship?"

Totally agree here, that this is how we should be thinking about the prose and interpreting the symbolism. The symbolism never lies, even though the characters do. Nice job.

[Prince of Ghost]

I have no doubt that GRRM wants us to question Ned + Wylla = Jon (the way he sets up that story alongside Ned's character and the fact that he gives the reader other possibilities--like Ashara and the Fisherman's Wife-- makes the reader want to question it. GRRM designed it that way). But I don't think he wants us to then fall into RLJ only to blindsided by some other truth. What you're suggesting is that GRRM knew/suspected :

1) People would question NWJ

2) People would become hardcore fans of his books and discuss every bit of mystery in his series.

3) People would latch on to RLJ after becoming hardcore fans

He can know the first since he (clearly IMO) wrote it that way. He cannot know the second nor the third. His books were just as likely to never be successful, to never gain a following, to never be picked apart the way we do pick them apart.

He probably thought people would question NWJ. And he has given many supposed "clues" and "symobolism" for RLJ. I am not suggesting GRRM knew points 1 and 2.

[Prince of Ghost]

Totally agree here, that this is how we should be thinking about the prose and interpreting the symbolism. The symbolism never lies, even though the characters do. Nice job.

Are you referring to the symbolism in the main series or TWOIAF? Because at least in the main series all the chapters are from a limited POV characters which I am sure you know. Symbols can have different meanings to different characters, which can make the series very interesting.

[wolfmaid7]

No symbolism for Mance tying him to Lyanna. What symbolism is Lyanna associated with? A crown of blue roses. Even if you take the Bael story into consideration as a proxy for Mance, Mance himself has never, not once, appeared on the same page with blue roses, not to mention a crown of them.

Is there any other symbolism for Lyanna?

Why don't we hear of Mance, or a wildling/NW brother or any other identification for him in Ned's PoV?

- Alright, let's wait for the essay.

First the blue winter rose is not a symbol "for" Lyanna it is a symbol associated "with" her there's a difference.I thought we should clarify this misconception as its a big one.

I will now call forth my inner IceFire125.

“Bael the Bard,” said Jon, remembering the tale that Ygritte had told him in the Frostfangs, the night he’d almost killed her. “Would that I were. I will not deny that Bael’s exploit inspired mine own... but I did not steal either of your sisters that I recall.ASOS,Jon

Seeing as he was inspired by Bael,he might have stolen Jon's mother does he recall that, which he doesn't include among Jon's other female relatives.

Author's hint through him maybe

Note: i don't believe Mance is the Daddy

[aDanceWithFlagons]

Gosh, have you never noticed that various B+L, N+L, N+A and the like come every other day and have been argued ad nauseam? Or that the majority of people have a better grasp of book facts and SSMs and the like, and see that a competing theory falls short on facts?

No I have not. Occasionally, I see theories brought up here and answered with comic sans, references to the app, 'analysis' full of imagined content, or the rlj OP, which is no proof of a solid grasp of the book text. Not by everyone, but the majority. As to the SSMs amd timeline, I've pointed out Martin's lack of conclusive dates.

As to the R + L = J theory, it is lacking like every other theory.

I saw the hints for Eddard not fathering Jon during my first read. Rhaegar and Lyanna producing a child is not hidden at all, because the premise that Rheagar took Lyanna and raped her is in the print and as plain as... X marks the spot.

This theory is nowhere near proven. If you want to wear R+L=J blinders while discussing the story told by Grrm then... but don't expect everyone else to do so.

[BearQueen87]

No I have not. Occasionally, I see theories brought up here and answered with comic sans, references to the app, 'analysis' full of imagined content, or the rlj OP, which is no proof of a solid grasp of the book text. Not by everyone, but the majority. As to the SSMs amd timeline, I've pointed out Martin's lack of conclusive dates.

As to the R + L = J theory, it is lacking like every other theory.

I saw the hints for Eddard not fathering Jon during my first read. Rhaegar and Lyanna producing a child is not hidden at all, because the premise that Rheagar took Lyanna and raped her is in the print and as plain as... X marks the spot.

This theory is nowhere near proven. If you want to wear R+L=J blinders while discussing the story told by Grrm then... but don't expect everyone else to do so.

I agree that RLJ is lacking in some regards--but it's in the details. Feelings, agenda, plans, and internal thoughts of all characters involved, R and L but also Arthur and Whent and even Hightower and Elia. But the basic theory: that the two of them are the parents of Jon Snow...that's less lacking than other theories people put forth, whatever is put forth in terms of letters. In terms of probability, RLJ is far (far far far IMO) more likely than any other. And I believe that's what it says in the OP; every other theory needs to reach the level of probability as RLJ and pass it in order to supplant.

[MtnLion]

There is a very peculiar passage from aGoT that obviously was very carefully written. It has to do with Ned finding his sister and three Kingsguard in the Red Mountains of Dorne, at an abandoned watch tower. The best approach is to try to see each side of the dialog through each of the player's own view. Determine what are the Kingsguard hearing and saying. Determine what Ned is hearing and saying. It is crucial that the entire dialog makes sense to Ned.

It is Ned's recurring dream, so it is not just a fever dream. It is recurring, and it holds deep meaning for Ned. It makes sense to Ned. It is a source of grief for Ned. He killed three of the finest knights he had ever known, one of them Ned says was the best of all, Ser Arthur Dayne.

Ned and his friends arrive at the tower, as they had in life. This dream is based upon real events. This actually occurred, but the dialog seems to be paraphrased in Ned's memory. He vividly remembers the three Kingsguard, though. The conversation must have a deep meaning for Ned.

The only vow that we can be sure that Ned knows is the vow that Kingsguard take before receiving their white cloak. Jaime and others tell us that it is to protect and defend the king, dying for him, if need be. There are also some ancillary promises, but the first priority is given as protection and defense of the crown, all other promises descend from that.

"I looked for you on the Trident,” Ned said to them.
Ned knew about Prince Lewyn Martell and Ser Jonothor Darry dying at the Trident. He knew about Ser Barristan Selmy slaying twelve of his and Robert’s friends before being wounded so severely that he may have died without Robert sending his own maester to tend to Selmy’s wounds. He knew that Ser Jaime Lannister had been in the Red Keep during the battle. He expected to see these three at the Trident, too.

“We were not there,” Ser Gerold answered.
From the app we know that Ser Arthur Dayne and Ser Oswell Whent are with Prince Rhaegar when Lyanna enters the company of the prince. There is no surprise about events on the Trident expressed by any of these three. Evidently they are aware of the battle, and the outcome.

“Woe to the Usurper if we had been,” said Ser Oswell.
This states that Robert is considered an usurper by these Kingsguard, or at least by Ser Oswell Whent. He does use the term "we" and implies that Robert could not have won the battle at the Trident if these three had been present at the battle. They know that Robert has been crowned and taken the throne as an usurper. This also tells us that they know of an heir that is still living that has a better claim than Robert.

“When King's Landing fell, Ser Jaime slew your king with a golden sword, and I wondered where you were.”
Ned relays that King's Landing has fallen and King Aerys is dead by Jaime’s hand. Ned knows that the primary duty of the Kingsguard is to protect and defend the king. He wonders why it is that these three Kingsguard were not with King Aerys when King’s Landing fell.

“Far away,” Ser Gerold said, “or Aerys would yet sit the Iron Throne, and our false brother would burn in seven hells.”
Ser Gerold Hightower condemns Jaime as a Oathbreaker, and implies that he or one of these others would certainly kill Jaime rather than let him slay the king if they had been present. Ser Gerold is expressing his support for King Aerys. He also relays that when Jaime slew Aerys that none of the three had been in a position to react, they were too far away.

“I came down on Storm's End to lift the siege,” Ned told them, and the Lords Tyrell and Redwyne dipped their banners, and all their knights bent the knee to pledge us fealty. I was certain you would be among them.”
Ned tells them that all remaining forces surrendered to him, and pledged fealty to Robert and Ned. He expected to find the last of the Kingsguard with these forces, but again was surprised to note that they were not. This is an invitation for these Kingsguard to surrender to him.

“Our knees do not bend easily,” said Ser Arthur Dayne.
Ser Arthur Dayne speaks for the group, and says that they will not surrender. Of note, when Ned approaches the tower Ser Oswell Whent is on his knee. That fact and this line can amount to a subtle clue that the Kingsguard have already bent their knees at the tower, before Ned arrives.

“Ser Willem Darry is fled to Dragonstone, with your queen and Prince Viserys. I thought you might have sailed with him.”
Ned has offered the Kingsguard the option of surrendering to him, which they rejected. This line is disjointed in the timeline because Ned is changing his tactic. He holds the Kingsguard, especially these three in high regard, even years later. He called them a shining example to the rest of the world. In an attempt to find some talking point that would lead to a peaceful solution, Ned tells them that their queen and prince have fled to Dragonstone without Kingsguard protection. This is an opening for the Kingsguard to discuss a tactical withdrawal. It is within Ned’s capabilities, as second in command, to provide safe passage. It would be in his, his friend’s and the Kingsguard’s best interests to allow them to go to Dragontsone to carry out their duties there.

“Ser Willem is a good man and true,” said Ser Oswell.
Ser Willem Darry is a brother to Ser Jonothor Darry of the Kingsguard, and known well to these members of the Kingsguard. They are admitting that they know that "Prince" Viserys is without a Kingsguard. They have ignored the insult of labeling Viserys as a prince, when he should be considered the king.

“But not of the Kingsguard,” Ser Gerold pointed out. “The Kingsguard does not flee.”
On the night that news of the Trident arrived at King's Landing Aerys ordered that Rhaella and Viserys be taken to Dragonstone for their safety, as it appeared that King's Landing would shortly be under siege. Jaime was the only Kingsguard in King's Landing so Ser Willem Darry was drafted to protect the royal family members, while Jaime remained with King Aerys, Elia, and her children.

The Lord Commander recognizes that Ser Willem Darry is not Kingsguard, thus the queen and prince Viserys are not currently under Kingsguard protection. Taken together with Ned’s statement, it is easy to see that Ser Gerold Hightower sees leaving King Aerys' side at King’s Landing as fleeing from his duty, even if it was to protect Queen Rhaella and Prince Viserys.

If the Red Keep falls, and Aerys dies then Viserys was safe as long as he could stay alive on Dragonstone. The majority of the fighting men had gone with Rhaegar, and mustering enough men to defend the city or just the Red Keep may be difficult. Without a Kingsguard to protect them Darry, Viserys and Daenerys are nearly captured and turned over to Robert. They manage to escape just before Dragonstone surrenders.

“Then or now,” said Ser Arthur. He donned his helm.
Arthur reiterates that the Kingsguard would have chosen to stay in King's Landing over fleeing with Rhaella and Viserys. The primary duty of the Kingsguard is to protect and defend the king, they would choose to stay with King Aerys (then) as Rhaella and Viserys flee King's Landing. It appears that these three Kingsguard have decided that they have an obligation, by their vow, to stay to protect and defend someone at the tower (now).

“We swore a vow,” explained old Ser Gerold.
The Lord Commander is citing the Kingsguard’s vow as the reason that they must stay. He has decided that all three would remain, to protect the king. Several things contribute to this conclusion:

• The White Bull, as Ser Gerold is known, is quite the stickler when it comes to the comport of Kingsguard duties.
• Ser Gerold does not have a friendship with Rhaegar that would favor this decision.
• Ser Gerold has already stated that he would slay Jaime to protect Aerys.
• Ser Gerold’s decision to keep Arthur and Oswell with him only protects the king (the primary purpose of the Kingsguard) if the king is present at the tower.
• Ned knows that these men were honoring their Kingsguard vow. There is no other vow that Ned is ever aware of. He thinks of these three as the epitome of honor and skill. A shining example for the world.

We have Ned's interpretation of the Kingsguard's vow: His sword helped taint the throne you sit on, Ned thought, but did not permit the words to pass his lips. "He swore a vow to protect his king's life with his own. Then he opened that king's throat with a sword." Reading these three statements, with Ned's understanding we have: The Kingsguard does not flee (from its duty to protect King Aerys) then or (from its duty to protect Jon) now, because (explained) we swore a vow to protect our king's life with our own; puts things in a very clear light.

Ned’s wraiths moved up beside him, with shadow swords in hand. They were seven against three.
GRRM has confirmed that with equal equipment Ser Barristan Selmy and Ser Arthur Dayne are a close match, with Dawn in hand Ser Arthur is superior. Ser Barristan single-handedly rescued King Aerys from captivity at Duskendale. Ser Jaime Lannister expresses his awe at the defeat of the Kingswood Brotherhood and the Smiling Knight, who was slain by Ser Arthur. In the screenplay Jaime slays a dozen men before being subdued at the battle of the Whispering Woods. Kingsguard practice daily among themselves.

One of the seven is a crannogman, not known for fighting skill. Another is Ethan Glover, recently released from the Black Cells, and likely weak as well as just being Brandon's squire. It seems that even facing the odds that they do, the Kingsguard should prevail. Something odd happened, and I really look forward to GRRM telling us about it.

“And now it begins,” said Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. He unsheathed Dawn and held it with both hands. The blade was pale as milkglass, alive with light.
The most important (first) battle of the Jon Targaryen dynasty. The mindset of the Kingsguard is that they will win the battle, and keep the secret at the tower safe until they can move to safety. There is nothing here that would indicate any fatalism on the part of Arthur. It suggests that Arthur expects to win, though we know with hindsight that they did not, and that at least Ned and Howland are aware of the secret.

“No,” Ned said with sadness in his voice. “Now it ends.”
Ned knows the outcome, and he regrets that he had to kill the three finest knights in the kingdom, even years later. If Lyanna had been kidnapped or mistreated while they were present Ned would not have that favorable view of these men. These three Kingsguard are undoubtedly living up to their "vow to guard the king", in Hightower's own words, to gain Ned's greatest respect. As fate has it, because these men were so honorable, on both sides of this meeting, they were fated to fight to the bitter end, for honor’s sake.

We also have the text of the white book about Ser Gerold Hightower from the screenplay.

Dispatched by King Areys to locate the crown Prince Rhaegar Targaryen in the wake of Robert Baratheon's rebellion. Died in the Red Mountains of Dorne alongside his sworn brothers, Ser Arthur Dayne and Ser Oswell Whent. After refusing to bow to the new King, Robert Baratheon, all three were defeated by a small force led by Eddard Stark of Winterfell.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

The timeline SSM with emphasis provided by me....

"All of which is a long winded way of saying, no, Jon was not born "more than 1 year" before Dany... probably closer to eight or nine months or thereabouts.

I do intend to publish a timeline as an appendix in one or other of the later volumes, but even when I do, I am not certain I'm going to start detailing things down to months and days. With such a huge cast of characters, just keeping track of the =years= drives me half mad sometimes. Not to mention the colors of everybody's eyes."

So not more than a year before Dany. The time of Jon's birth is said to be between not more than a year and probably closer to eight or nine months. Martin did not say the time of Jon's birth is eight or nine months before Dany's.

And another SSM

"The reason I am never specific about dates and distances is precisely so that people won't sit down and do this sort of thing.

My suggestion would be to put away the ruler and the stopwatch, and just enjoy the story."

Well, sometimes it's hard to put those away. But when we do, we should keep this in mind.

[Ygrain]

First the blue winter rose is not a symbol "for" Lyanna it is a symbol associated "with" her there's a difference.I thought we should clarify this misconception as its a big one.

Did I write "for"? That was a mistake. But either way, "for" or "with", is there any other symbolism that might tie her to any other person in the series?

No I have not. Occasionally, I see theories brought up here and answered with comic sans, references to the app, 'analysis' full of imagined content, or the rlj OP, which is no proof of a solid grasp of the book text.

If you have beef with the OP, be specific.

As to the SSMs amd timeline, I've pointed out Martin's lack of conclusive dates.

This seems like some kind of mantra. For all the nopenopenope about GRRM's numbers, he still had a fine enough grasp about the time of Jon's birth that he narrowed down a reader's estimate stating a year before Dany to only 9-8 months.

As to the R + L = J theory, it is lacking like every other theory.

Again, be specific. Preferably, one point by one, so that the discussion is easier to follow.

This theory is nowhere near proven. If you want to wear R+L=J blinders while discussing the story told by Grrm then... but don't expect everyone else to do so.

And antiRLJ blinders are supposed to be any better?