R+L=J v. 149

[Lord Wraith]

So does anybody think that Jon is the song of Ice and Fire?

Cause I never thought that and still don't but when I read about a marriage alliance between the Targs and Starks and it being called A Pact of Ife and Fire than I started thinking that Jon has a lot more to do with the series title than I give him credit for.

So Jon is the song of Ice and Fire. Is Dany just Fire?

[LmL]

So Jon is the song of Ice and Fire. Is Dany just Fire?

Right, and Bran is just Ice.

I actually see multiple trinities here (speaking loosely of the 3 heads of the dragon concept). The above fire, ice, and ice/fire, then a trio within each. Fire trio is Dany, Tyrion, and (for a short time) I believe Victarion (that's the importance of his fire hand transformation and the dragonbinder horn - I think Vic gets a dragon.

Then we have Bran, Jon, and probably Arya (who I think is foreshadowed to come north and intersect with Jon's plot).

[IceFire125]

If you're saying Rhaegar tried and succeeded to fulfill prophecy and birthed the savior of Westeros which is exactly what he intended to do then no I don't believe it for a second.

He did. We saw the visions in the HoTU that Rhaegar thought it was his son Aegon. However, just like Mel, he misinterpret, so there's a reason why he needs a third. In his mind is to fulfill the 3 headed dragon, but it's actually an important piece of the whole prophecy... Jon is Lightbringer.

King Stannis gazed off north again, his gold cloak streaming from his shoulders. “It may be that I am mistaken in you, Jon Snow. We both know the things that are said of bastards. You may lack your father’s honor, or your brother’s skill in arms. But you are the weapon the Lord has given me. I have found you here, as you found the cache of dragonglass beneath the Fist, and I mean to make use of you. Even Azor Ahai did not win his war alone.

**R+L=Lightbringer by Schmendrick. R+L=J is much bigger than just Jon sitting on the throne.

[Lord Wraith]

Right, and Bran is just Ice.

I actually see multiple trinities here (speaking loosely of the 3 heads of the dragon concept). The above fire, ice, and ice/fire, then a trio within each. Fire trio is Dany, Tyrion, and (for a short time) I believe Victarion (that's the importance of his fire hand transformation and the dragonbinder horn - I think Vic gets a dragon.

Then we have Bran, Jon, and probably Arya (who I think is foreshadowed to come north and intersect with Jon's plot).

Figured that would make Bran Ice. Thanks for the clarification.

[LmL]

Not sure what exactly the three heads of the dragon will turn out to mean (several things I would guess), but I see those triplets in any case. Bran, Jon, and Dany seem the most important. Tyrion comes close but I think he will be more of an adjunct, an assistant to Dany or whoever else.

There's a story in Yi Ti about a woman with a monkey's tail having something to do with ending the Long Night. I think one of the meanings of this is a foreshadowing of Dany with Tyrion as a "tail" playing whatever role Dany will play in the endgame. Tyrion of course is a twisted monkey demon, and various other kinds of monkeys. I actually think George drew a bit from a Chinese deity called Sun Wukong.

[LmL]

There are some Tyrion ideas here as well as some Lightbringer motifs and general astronomy-heavy myth making. Just get a load of this stuff:

"Sun Wukong, also known as the Monkey King, is a main character in the Chinese classical novel Journey to the West. Sun Wukong is also found in many later stories and adaptations. In the novel, he is a monkey born from a stone who acquires supernatural powers through Taoist practices. After rebelling against heaven and being imprisoned under a mountain by the Buddha, he later accompanies the monk Xuanzang on a journey to retrieve Buddhist sutras from India.

Sun Wukong possesses an immense amount of strength; he is able to lift his 13,500 jīn (7,960 kilograms (17,550 lb)) staff with ease. He is also extremely fast, able to travel 108,000 li (54,000 kilometres (34,000 mi)) in one somersault. Sun knows 72 transformations, which allow him to transform into various animals and objects; however, he is troubled in transforming into other forms, due to the accompanying incomplete transformation of his tail. Sun Wukong is a skilled fighter, capable of holding his own against the best warriors of heaven. Also, each of his hairs possess magical properties, capable of being transformed into clones of the Monkey King himself, and/or into various weapons, animals, and other objects. He also knows spells that can command wind, part water, conjure protective circles against demons, and freeze humans, demons, and gods alike.[1]

According to the legend, Sun Wukong, or Monkey King, was born from a magic stone that sat on the top of a mountain, that had been receiving the powers of the heavens and the earth since the beginning of time and had thereby gained miraculous powers. The stone stood 36 feet and 5 inches representing the degrees of the heavens and 24 feet round representing the division of the solar calendar. With nine hole in it for the nine trigrams. The stone developed a magic womb, which burst open one day to produce a stone egg about the size of a ball.

When the wind blew on this egg it turned into a stone monkey, complete with the five senses and four limbs. When the stone monkey came out, he already had the ability to crawl and walk. He then bowed to each of the four quarters. As his eyes moved, two beams of golden light shot towards the Pole Star palace and startled the Supreme Heavenly Sage, the Greatly Compassionate Jade Emperor of the Azure Vault of Heaven, who was sitting surrounded by his immortal ministers on his throne in the Hall of Miraculous Mist in the Golden-gated Cloud Palace. When he saw the dazzling golden light he ordered Thousand-mile Eye and Wind-accompanying Ear to open the Southern Gate of Heaven and take a look. The two officers went out through the gate in obedience to the imperial command, and while one observed what was going on the other listened carefully. Soon afterwards they reported back:

In obedience to the Imperial Mandate your subjects observed and listened to the source of the golden light. We found that at the edge of the country of Aolai, which is East of the ocean belonging to the Eastern Continent of Superior Body, there is an island called the Mountain of Flowers and Fruit. A magic stone on the top of this mountain produced a magic egg, and when the wind blew on this egg it turned into a stone monkey which bowed to each of the four quarters. When he moved his eyes, golden light shot towards the Pole Star Palace; but now that he is eating and drinking, the golden light is gradually dying.

{...}

They lined up in groups in order of age and paid their homage as at court, all acclaiming him as the Great King of a Thousand Years. The stone monkey then took the throne, made the word stone taboo, and called himself Handsome Monkey King.

At the Mountain of Flowers and Fruit, Sun Wukong established himself as one of the most powerful and influential demons in the world. In search of a weapon worthy of himself, Sun Wukong traveled into the oceans, where he acquired the Golden-banded staff Ruyi Jingu Bang, which could change its size, multiply itself, and fight according to the whim of its master. It was originally used by Dà-Yǔ to measure ocean depth and later became the "Pillar that pacifies the oceans", a treasure of Ao Guang, the "dragon-king of the Eastern Seas". It weighed 13,500 jin (8.1 tons). Upon Sun Wukong's approach, the pillar started to glow, signifying that it had found its true master. Its versatility meant that Sun Wukong could wield it as a staff and keep it inside his ear as a sewing needle. This drove fear into the magical beings of the sea and threw the sea itself into confusion, since nothing but the pillar could control the ebb and flow of the ocean's tides. In addition to taking the magical staff, Wukong also defeated the dragons of the four seas in battle and forced them to give him a golden chain mail shirt (鎖子黃金甲), a phoenix-feather cap (鳳翅紫金冠 Fèngchìzǐjinguān), and cloud-walking boots (藕絲步雲履 Ǒusībùyúnlǚ).

Upon his triumphant return, he demonstrated the new weapon to his followers, growing his size in proportion to the original length of the staff. The uproar drew attention of other beastly powers who sought to ally with him. Sun Wukong formed a fraternity with the Bull Demon King (牛魔王), the Saurian Demon King (蛟魔王), the Roc Demon King (鵬魔王), the Lion Spirit King (獅狔王), the Macaque Spirit King (獼猴王) and the Snub-nosed monkey Spirit King (禺狨王).[5][Note 1]

Sun Wukong then defied Hell's attempt to collect his soul. Instead of reincarnating like all other living beings, he wiped his name out of the "Book of Life and Death" and with it the names of all other monkeys known to him. The Dragon Kings and the Kings of Hell then decided to report him to the Jade Emperor of Heaven.[1]

[LmL]

Tyrion may soon find himself atop the pyramid, the ruling demon (the mountain of flowers and fruit), and in possession of the weapons and authority of dragon kings (queens). There's an idea here about making alliances as well. The idea of a monkey waking from stone is pretty familiar, especially considering the demon nature of the monkey and all the dragon king stuff.

This is another reason why I think it is a natural fit for George to make the Great Empire of the Dawn the original dragonlords. Chinese culture is more dragon heavy than any other.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

From SFDanny from the previous thread

All of which means, I think, that Gendry is conceived between the last three months of 283 and the third month of 284 (he is born in 284.) For Ned to travel to Storm's End, on to the Tower, through Dorne and on to Starfall, and back to King's Landing (via a stop in Storm's End to join up wit his troops?) in less than those six months seems unlikely. You're right of course, Robert could have ended the engagement earlier, but he seems like the sort to hold on to his Lyanna until the final moment in which he hears the news of her death - not faithfully, but possessively. My take anyway

I mostly agree. We don't know how long it took Ned until he got back to Winterfell.. It might be that he had send a message ahead to Robert, concerning Lyanna, or it could be that he waited until he could tell Robert in person. The journey from KL to Winterfell doesn't feature in this, as Robert would have known by then.

From Alia of the knife from the previous thread:

Again, given the times, if Lyanna had been brought back alive, it would have been hard for Robert as king to take her to wife as she would be considered "damaged goods."

As to his personal preference, I don't know. I sometimes think the pride in him would chafe at her not being a maiden when they married. Henry the VII made Elizabeth of York wait almost a year after their betrothal to marry her to make sure she did not carry the child of Richard III, rumored to have been her lover and whom she wanted to marry.

I agree, that a marriage between Robert and Lyanna would have been rather difficult. Perhaps Jon Arryn would have made Robert give up that dream, perhaps Robert would have done whatever he wanted, because he was king.

Look at Jeyne Westerling. Despite it having been half a year since Robb Stark had died, she is still told to wait two more years until marrying, as to prevent anyone from claiming any child of hers is Robb's. That's two and a half year, right there. Perhaps, something similar had been envisioned by Robert at the time of Rebellion's end.

Of course, that's looking from Robert's perspective only. It completely depends on which "what if" scenario, how Robert and Lyanna would have reacted.

So does anybody think that Jon is the song of Ice and Fire?

Cause I never thought that and still don't but when I read about a marriage alliance between the Targs and Starks and it being called A Pact of Ife and Fire than I started thinking that Jon has a lot more to do with the series title than I give him credit for.

I more see the song as a battle/war. Rhaegar, after Aegon's birth, states that "his is the song of ice and fire", not "he is the song of ice and fire". Rhaegar could have been wrong, of course ;) But atm, I'm more inclined to see it as a war, than as a person

[Jon Weirgaryen]

Imore see the song as a battle/war. Rhaegar, after Aegon's birth, states that "his is the song of ice and fire", not "he is the song of ice and fire". Rhaegar could have been wrong, of course ;) But atm, I'm more inclined to see it as a war, than as a person

War is one of the four riders of apocalypse.

We have seen the others: Famine, Pestilence (the pale mare, maybe greyscale) and Death (who supposedly rides a pale mare). :)

[IMNHAAO]

The incredibly ironic thing is that Martin created Jon's parentage to not hinder a love relationship between Jon and Arya as they would be cousins, and Martin did this when both thought they were brother and sister.

Now the idea of WHO his parents are have become the scandal.

Well he obviously wanted exactly that by making Lyanna the Helen of Troy of the situation. Which, on a side note, is ironic because I read a book a long long time ago about the return of one of the Greek heroes and the author proposed the possibility that Helen in reality never left with Paris, that what he took was something else entirely and war was waged not to recover an unfaithful wife, but the roots of the Greek civilization and power and its loss brought the fall of the Greek Empire and the rise of the Roman. It was an exceptionally good book I felt, much reminiscent of the Iliad "tone".

Sometimes I toy with the idea GRRM did pull something close to this, but then finding no sign in the books I discard the possibility because it wouldn't require the use of red herrings, but just outright lying to the reader by not giving them any clue at all.

Which is my problem with any theory other than R+L.

I don't think Dayne is ever cited in the same sentence with her (?), so for as much as I am told every time the sword of the morning was around Lyanna was powdering her nose. Of course GRRM might expect me to be sensible and not want to be spoon-fed everything, but I would have expected many read herrings and one real clue. I'm overwhelmed by the stench of all these decaying herrings and I am missing the clue. So, to my dismay, no sword of the morning. A severely good-looking guy, honourable and seriously bad-ass at fighting. I wonder why I am so interested in one of the few decent human beings described in the book...

Howland Reed to be her lover would mean he is one of the most cowardly pigs that ever lived even by GRRM stories's standards, which you will have noticed are pretty unrealistically low. No one is as MIA as Howland. It would require much malice on his part to create this mess and do absolutely nothing. Not that he had to try to stop it, I am not expecting grand heroism, but at least to do something somehow for his child, whom Ned would know is his (because of the promises etc etc...) It would have been so easy: "Look, Cat, I have a bastard son, let's pretend he doesn't exist as most do, we will just send him to be raised at some bannerman's place, possibly one that doesn't really have much contacts with us at all... Ever heard of crannogmen?"

Her brothers would make it a double incest considering that at the beginning he wanted to pair Jon with Arya so I am excluding them without even addressing the issue (which might prove unwise, but my sanity has to be preserved even at this late stage).

The only one left is Robert. He was a dirtbag he would of course go to bed with Lyanna as soon as he had a chance, she didn't seem so excited at the idea of marrying the idiot though, as soon as she is told of the betrothal she is less than enthusiastic and that paragon of virtue of Ned finds excuses for the pig. I mean! Ned makes me want to hug him and hit him in the mouth with a shovel at the same time so often than bipolar-ism is just the least I can expect in my diagnosis.

With R+L being the only "honest" solution comes the issue if she was willing or not, which is less important for the story in itself. A child is born whether his mother was raped or not. Being Jon the lucky bastard he is she was probably raped which would be the final step into the series becoming "A series of unfortunate ice and fire songs". Snicket has never been my taste and it wouldn't become such even in medieval settings so hopefully I will be spared this.

I really think you are short changing it when you say fairly dark. This shit could get really, really dark. None of us really have any idea what he's planning to do but whether tounge in cheek or not he says he wants to destroy the souls of his readers. When I read shit like that in interviews I start to steel myself, especially given what GRRM has given us so far.

Now whether the idea the Rhaegar managed to birth a savior which is exactly what he intended to do is rosy or not - I absolutely believe it is........ GRRM would never let one of his characters plunge the realm into war on their whims to fulfill a half-baked prophecy that was in probability a load of bull anyway and then actually be rewarded for doing so.

I am not sure what you mean with "darker". "The return of the king" for me was rather dark/sad, and Frodo was the epitome of bittersweet. I was probably too young when I read it and I tell you, it wasn't pretty. I SO see Jon going towards this path... A man trying his best to do the right thing, a piece of him lost to his enemy and a future of isolation from all he loved.

About Rhaegar and getting his prince that was promised, well, George is good at giving you exactly what you wanted and making you bitterly regret it. Jon might possibly just be better off dead for good. There is always a price and he is not the kind of guy to which George gives a pass. Ever.

I wonder why he seems to give some characters aids in some form or another while others seem to have a black cloud drawn on top of their head with the occasional lightning strike hitting them in the ass.

[UnmaskedLurker]

[snip]

Can we at least agree that the SSM puts to bed any of the theories out there that Jon and Dany are twins?

I really think you are short changing it when you say fairly dark. This shit could get really, really dark. None of us really have any idea what he's planning to do but whether tounge in cheek or not he says he wants to destroy the souls of his readers. When I read shit like that in interviews I start to steel myself, especially given what GRRM has given us so far.

Now whether the idea the Rhaegar managed to birth a savior which is exactly what he intended to do is rosy or not - I absolutely believe it is. I believe even with the bloody consequences of his actions Rhaegar would be satisfied with himself for managing to ultimately save humanity. Don't you think he would? I do. And I believe most readers would be happy with it too. They would ulimately view Rhaegar's reckless actions as noble and worth the destructive consequences and the stupider readers would even see the whole situation as highly romantic (and sorry there's no easier way to say that, it's just true). That's what it's ultimately about, GRRM would never let one of his characters plunge the realm into war on their whims to fulfill a half-baked prophecy that was in probability a load of bull anyway and then actually be rewarded for doing so.

Well, I really don't think the ending is going to focus much on the RLJ situation directly. I think all of those issues will be fleshed out and more or less resolved before the endgame -- and relate to the endgame only in terms of what Jon is able to do as a result of his fire/ice heritage. So whether Rhaegar intended to produce the savior or not is not really central to whether the endgame is dark or not. The endgame will be more dark if more people die and if more people suffer.

As to your question about what Rhaegar was trying to do -- I think he was trying to produce the 3 heads of the dragon from the prophecy. He believed he had to give birth to all 3 heads of the dragon. Clearly, he was wrong. Now whether he thought Jon was going to just be the 3rd head or realized (or concluded) that Jon likely would also be TPTWP is a matter of debate. BQ87 and I are on record theorizing that Rhaegar "changed his mind" a second time and concluded that a son with Lyanna and not Aegon would be TPTWP. But whether we are right or not is not really that central to how dark the books get. Rhaegar thought his children would be the 3 heads -- he was wrong -- but Jon almost certainly is at least 1 of the heads -- so in that sense Rhaegar was right. But in any case, Rhaegar almost certainly is a tragic figure who obsessed over prophecy and got them partially right and partially wrong. He inadvertently started a war that led to the destruction of his family. Nothing can turn that situation into a bright and sunny resolution. And he is dead, after all. Whether Rhaegar would be satisfied is more or less irrelevant. One final thought -- I disagree that any of the prophecies are half-baked. They may be like a "mule" that kicks when attempted to be "ridden" (i.e., interpreted). But one way or the other, the prophecies will come true. The characters are meant to misunderstand them -- but they serve as clues and foreshadowing to the readers and will come true in some form.

[BearQueen87]

Right, and Bran is just Ice.

Agreed. "Every song must have its balance." There is a reason why Bran and Dany have so many parallels and interesting similarities.

[Umm]

“Aegon,” he said to a woman nursing a newborn babe in a great wooden bed. “What better name for a king?” “Will you make a song for him?” the woman asked. “He has a song,” the man replied. “He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire.” He looked up when he said it and his eyes met Dany’s, and it seemed as if he saw her standing there beyond the door. “There must be one more,” he said, though whether he was speaking to her or the woman in the bed she could not say. “The dragon has three heads.”

I'm new to these forums so this has probably been discussed (many times) before, but I believe that the woman in the bed is Lyanna.

Also I really can't get over how Aegon/Jon sound similar - so if Ned renamed him...

(yes, Rhaegar already has a son named Aegon)

[IMNHAAO]

“Aegon,” he said to a woman nursing a newborn babe in a great wooden bed. “What better name for a king?” “Will you make a song for him?” the woman asked. “He has a song,” the man replied. “He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire.” He looked up when he said it and his eyes met Dany’s, and it seemed as if he saw her standing there beyond the door. “There must be one more,” he said, though whether he was speaking to her or the woman in the bed she could not say. “The dragon has three heads.”

I'm new to these forums so this has probably been discussed (many times) before, but I believe that the woman in the bed is Lyanna.

Also I really can't get over how Aegon/Jon sound similar - so if Ned renamed him...

(yes, Rhaegar already has a son named Aegon)

I don't have the reference, but I have read a few times that GRRM has stated that it was Elia. I am checking the SSM in the Citadel section, but I haven't found the exact wording yet.

[Lord Varys]

Robert and Lyanna:

Robert was no royal by birth. He was Rhaegar's second cousin. We know there were Targaryen kings and princes who married widows - Maegor the Cruel, Daeron the Drunk, for instance. Lyanna being married to Rhaegar or being deflowered by him wouldn't prevent a marriage if Robert wanted it to happen. And I guess this would have been the case. There are quite a lot of men who married 'soiled goods' if they wanted to or were forced to - Jon Arryn, Tywin Lannister, Ambrose Butterwell, and so on.

Even Targaryen kings did this - Alicent Hightower was either deflowered by Jaehaerys I, Prince Daeron, or Viserys I prior to their marriage. She didn't come to her royal husband as a maiden... Not to mention Cersei - she wasn't a maiden, either, when she married Robert.

[Stargaryen81]

This is a Crackpot theory but what if Lyanna had Rhaegar's twins?!

Yes, baby Aegon was killed in the Red Keep.

Ned goes down and finds Lyanna. She dies because she had twins instead of just Jon. Twins don't happen very often in ASoIaF so assuming it could kill Lyanna. Only other Twins are Cersei and Jamie and JoAnna didn't have Tyrion for 9 years and that birth killed her, so birthing Twins could have major affects on the female body.

Ned finds the two boys and makes the promise even darker. Clearly, one with darker hair will go with Ned and the one with Targaryen traits will be given to Ashara Dayne. Ned trusted her - he was going that way anyways to return Arthur Dayne's sword. He drops off baby 2 to Ashara. Ashara Dayne fakes her own death and heads to Essos to find any remnants of Targayren's. She finds Illyrio or Varys and they all work together to put this new baby on the throne a couple decades later.

It would explain the theory that Ashara Dayne is the Septa with Young Griff. It would explain how Griff had valyrian traits. It would explain the nature of Lyanna's death. Varys can easily spin the story in his favor. In the books Young Griff's age is questionable and at 16-17-18 it is easy to teach a kid his supposed age (even though he is younger than the actual Aegon)

I know it is a crackpot theory but I don't believe I have heard anyone bring that up before. the timeline fits and also brings Ashara Dayne into the fold as his septa.

[LmL]

{snip}

I am not sure what you mean with "darker". "The return of the king" for me was rather dark/sad, and Frodo was the epitome of bittersweet. I was probably too young when I read it and I tell you, it wasn't pretty. I SO see Jon going towards this path... A man trying his best to do the right thing, a piece of him lost to his enemy and a future of isolation from all he loved.

About Rhaegar and getting his prince that was promised, well, George is good at giving you exactly what you wanted and making you bitterly regret it. Jon might possibly just be better off dead for good. There is always a price and he is not the kind of guy to which George gives a pass. Ever.

I wonder why he seems to give some characters aids in some form or another while others seem to have a black cloud drawn on top of their head with the occasional lightning strike hitting them in the ass.

I wholeheartedly agree, and this is something that comes up from time to time. George's reputation as a breaker of tropes is dead wrong. He uses EVERY trope, but strips them of their glory and makes them REAL. That's what he does with tropes - he asks himself what they would actually look like and slams them into reality. Jon IS the long lost prince conceived as a fulfillment of prophecy. HERE is what that looks like: a civil war, thousands dead, the ruin of his house, etc.. It's a trope all right but not like any of us have ever seen it.

Can we at least agree that the SSM puts to bed any of the theories out there that Jon and Dany are twins?

Well, I really don't think the ending is going to focus much on the RLJ situation directly. I think all of those issues will be fleshed out and more or less resolved before the endgame -- and relate to the endgame only in terms of what Jon is able to do as a result of his fire/ice heritage. So whether Rhaegar intended to produce the savior or not is not really central to whether the endgame is dark or not. The endgame will be more dark if more people die and if more people suffer.

As to your question about what Rhaegar was trying to do -- I think he was trying to produce the 3 heads of the dragon from the prophecy. He believed he had to give birth to all 3 heads of the dragon. Clearly, he was wrong. Now whether he thought Jon was going to just be the 3rd head or realized (or concluded) that Jon likely would also be TPTWP is a matter of debate. BQ87 and I are on record theorizing that Rhaegar "changed his mind" a second time and concluded that a son with Lyanna and not Aegon would be TPTWP. But whether we are right or not is not really that central to how dark the books get. Rhaegar thought his children would be the 3 heads -- he was wrong -- but Jon almost certainly is at least 1 of the heads -- so in that sense Rhaegar was right. But in any case, Rhaegar almost certainly is a tragic figure who obsessed over prophecy and got them partially right and partially wrong. He inadvertently started a war that led to the destruction of his family. Nothing can turn that situation into a bright and sunny resolution. And he is dead, after all. Whether Rhaegar would be satisfied is more or less irrelevant. One final thought -- I disagree that any of the prophecies are half-baked. They may be like a "mule" that kicks when attempted to be "ridden" (i.e., interpreted). But one way or the other, the prophecies will come true. The characters are meant to misunderstand them -- but they serve as clues and foreshadowing to the readers and will come true in some form.

Just wanted to especially agree with the bolded. All true. Prophecy is a sword without a hilt, but a sword without a hilt is better than no sword at all. Some people read this as "a sword without a handle," but it is the hilt that is missing. That's actually not that bad, certainly better than no sword.

P.S. A sword without a hilt is a comet.

[Lady Darry]

I more see the song as a battle/war. Rhaegar, after Aegon's birth, states that "his is the song of ice and fire", not "he is the song of ice and fire". Rhaegar could have been wrong, of course ;) But atm, I'm more inclined to see it as a war, than as a person

Me too. I think it means he will be a important part of a battle between ice and fire, and not necessary ice&fire at the same time or a song of ice and fire. Maybe we were just infected with the ‘he will bring balance to the force’ mentality. His is the song of ice and fire, could mean the same as Churchill’s was the song of 2WW.

TWOW/ADOS

Spanish illustrator for ASOIAF said we will get a battle between ice and fire in which Red Keep and KL will get destroyed (and he talked with GRRM about it) and he also gave a hint that Targs will die out. The way he talked a song is about war and battle and not a person.

Btw, in previous threads some of us were doubting R+L=J and now we started this thread with a pessimistic outlook on the future. So I was wondering, how will you react if it turns out R+L=/=J and that Rhaegar failed and that Rhaegar doesn't even matter, because Targs are all about fire and Starks (Daynes) are the one true saviors of humanity? (I am not asking for all the reasons why this is not going to happen. Let just assume it happens and it turns out that 149 of threads about RLJ were a waste of time)

[Kingmonkey]

"Sun Wukong, also known as the Monkey King

Hi!

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Me too. I think it means he will be a important part of a battle between ice and fire, and not necessary ice&fire at the same time or a song of ice and fire. Maybe we were just infected with the ‘he will bring balance to the force’ mentality. His is the song of ice and fire, could mean the same as Churchill’s was the song of 2WW.

TWOW/ADOS

Spanish illustrator for ASOIAF said we will get a battle between ice and fire in which Red Keep and KL will get destroyed (and he talked with GRRM about it) and he also gave a hint that Targs will die out. The way he talked a song is about war and battle and not a person.

Do you have any more info on that spoiler? Illustrator for what exactly? Was there an interview, something like that? Sounds like a pretty big spoiler, I can't imagine GRRM revealing something like that so far ahead to someone.