R+L=J v. 149

[Bael's Bastard]

I am not getting the relevance of the speculated Dayne dragon riding blood. The forty dragon riding Valyrian families practiced incest. The implication being that they preferred keeping it in the family over intermarrying with other dragon riding families. And we are dealing with Targaryen dragons.

[matchesmcfly]

I don't get it either. if the dayne's are anything related to valyrians, they are proto-valyrians. they've existed as a house for twice as long valyria rose and fell.

[Alia of the knife]

This would make a fabulous soap.

But a very bad story.

[Sly Wren]

I don't get it either. if the dayne's are anything related to valyrians, they are proto-valyrians. they've existed as a house for twice as long valyria rose and fell.

I am not getting the relevance of the speculated Dayne dragon riding blood. The forty dragon riding Valyrian families practiced incest. The implication being that they preferred keeping it in the family over intermarrying with other dragon riding families. And we are dealing with Targaryen dragons.

Won't presume to answer for LmL--but I am thinking of Jon's dragon dreams and fire imagery. Could be a pointer to his Targaryeness. But, if he were instead half Dayne, would also have a link to dragons that way. So his dreams would still fit.

As for the dragon riding, I'm not one who thinks that it's necessary for Jon to ride one of Dany's dragons.

But a very bad story.

Ah--only if you are sane. If insane, it's The Daynes of Our Lives.

[Sly Wren]

True. That's why the only sliver of a hair's breadth of doubt in RLJ that I have would be a Dayne heritage.

(look, I answered in only two three sentences).

Agreed. Also brief. :)

[Shinjuku Thief]

There's no question that Brandon was the player, but nor is there any reason to believe that Ned was a monk. The in-world opinion of Ned is that it's surprising but believable for him to have sired a bastard, and that's held by a lot of people who know him far better than we do.

I thought it's believed 'in universe' because it's accepted that that's what many men do in times of war, rather than anything to do with Ned's personality specifically?

[matchesmcfly]

Won't presume to answer for LmL--but I am thinking of Jon's dragon dreams and fire imagery. Could be a pointer to his Targaryeness. But, if he were instead half Dayne, would also have a link to dragons that way. So his dreams would still fit.

how? what tie do the daynes have with dragons? we don't have enough information about the daynes to come to that conclusion at this point. Jon has a dayne for a great, great, great, grandmother through Rhaegar (egg's mother was a dayne) and that's it. so whatever dragon dreams, or whatnot would still come from the targ side.

[LmL]

The idea is that the Daynes get their occasional "Valyrian looks" through an ancient descent from the pre-Valyrian dragonlords from Asshai, from whence AA came. There's a lot of evidence for this, coming from multiple angles, which I have documented (at some length) here.

As to the ramifications... there's a few things George could do with it. It may simply be all coming together to tell us what happened in the Dawn Age with Azor Ahai, the Last Hero, etc. In fact, that is one angle I have considered all along, that the swords which were Lightbringer or original Ice (if that's what Dawn is) may not be important this time around. Maybe we need new swords. Maybe Oathkeeper and Longclaw will be consecrated with magic and blood and become "lightbringer swords." The entire backstory of Dawn and Lightbringer may just be to tell us what needs to be re-created this time.

For example, if the Dayne family is descended from one half ancient Asshai / GEotD people, and one half native Westerosi (Stark), maybe the first Last Hero was a fire and ice union, as Jon is today if RLJ is true. The Daynes only serve to tell us what the formula is. You need a comet steel sword, ice and fire blood, or both - maybe that's the message. That might explain why no Dayne seems poised to be a main player in the last two books. Maybe Dawn will not do shit. It might be a museum piece, you know? I do think that at a certain level George is laying out some of these backstory puzzles sheerly for our entertainment, some of this shit might not ever impact the main plot, or only obliquely.

Now, if Daynes being descended of pre-Valyrian dragonlords is important to the plot, we have a few options.

• Jon could be part Dayne, and be AA reborn.

• House Dayne is descended from the Bloodstone E / AA, and they will play a villain role. Dawn may be used to slay one of Dany's dragons. Maybe Darkstar steals it and just causes trouble with it.

• Ned Dayne will in fact be the sword of the morning, and play a role, but that role will end up not being as important as we think. We know we aren't getting a Ned Dayne POV, or any new POVs outside of prologues, but who knows. Maybe he is like Rob Stark and we just hear about him or see him through other people. Ned is young, but trained under Beric (and AA / BSE symbol himself) and has seen battle. He seems confident and cheerful and very experienced. Dawn is a huge sword though, and after everyone flipped out about fAegon, I wonder if George would do this. I consider Darkstar / evil Dawn a more likely scenario.

• any chance fAegon is a Dayne? I don't know the timeline that well. Seems cracked, but I've seen it somewhere I think. But from the point of the view of character symmetry, fAegon taking Kings Landing, allying with the Dornish, and wielding Dawn would kind of come together to make him a worthy rival of Daenerys. Maybe house Dayne makes an exception, gives it to Aegon even if he isn't a Dayne.

[LmL]

One thing I will add about choosing someone to wield Dawn:

When the new Long Night falls, and the Others get past the Wall, decision making may change. We don't know the words of House Dayne or anything. If they have passed this damn sword down inside of their family for 8,000 years, they almost certainly have SOME kind of myth about what it does or why it is special. So when the Others invade and the LN falls, they might realize they HAVE to find someone worthy to wield it. They could turn to someone like fAegon, for sure. Or even Darkstar, for that matter.

Desperate times, desperate measures.

[spoon89]

This is actually a popular theory (at least on reddit a few days ago). Arya said (in Cat of the Canals) 'He is a man of the Night's Watch, she thought, as he sang about some stupid lady throwing herself off some stupid tower because her stupid prince was dead.' and some speculate that Rhaegar dishonored her and she looked at Stark because she wanted solace and she couldn't go to Elia, because she was his wife or her brother, because he was KG. So she went to Ned. And Ashara and Ned are a red herring for Ashara+Rhaegar and Lyanna and Rhaegar are a red herring for Lyanna+Dayne.

lol, we really need TWOW :)

That stupid song is likely a part of the "The Dance of the Dragons", which chronicles the Dance of the Dragons civil war.

Spoiler

Helaena Targaryen (sister wife of Aegon II) was forced by a pair of assassins to choose which of her two sons they were going to kill, after she chose one the assassins killed the other one. She locked herself in a tower, eventually went mad and hurled herself off Maegor's Holdfast.

[Ygrain]

That would go against what we know about Ned. Ned was never the boy he was.

And by his own thoughts, wasn't a man to take his pleasures.

brandon wouldn't haved fucked the girl that ned was in love with. he went south like leeroy jenkins in search of rhaegar for going away with lyanna, but he's gonna take the virtue of the woman his younger brother loved? nah. can't see it.

"Everything was always for Brandon."

[Lord Wraith]

One thing I will add about choosing someone to wield Dawn:

When the new Long Night falls, and the Others get past the Wall, decision making may change. We don't know the words of House Dayne or anything. If they have passed this damn sword down inside of their family for 8,000 years, they almost certainly have SOME kind of myth about what it does or why it is special. So when the Others invade and the LN falls, they might realize they HAVE to find someone worthy to wield it. They could turn to someone like fAegon, for sure. Or even Darkstar, for that matter.

Desperate times, desperate measures.

Edric Dayne was likely supposed to wield it and then Martin decided to not do the 5 year skip and I can't take a 13 year old Sword of the Morning seriously.

And by his own thoughts, wasn't a man to take his pleasures.

"Everything was always for Brandon."

Brandon seemed to do what or who he wanted when he wanted.

[LmL]

Edric Dayne was likely supposed to wield it and then Martin decided to not do the 5 year skip and I can't take a 13 year old Sword of the Morning seriously.

I've seen people suggest that this why Darkstar appeared from nowhere in AFFC. But Darkstar is a totally different character that Ned Dayne, so...

[Ygrain]

I've seen people suggest that this why Darkstar appeared from nowhere in AFFC. But Darkstar is a totally different character that Ned Dayne, so...

:ack:

Perhaps facing an ice zombie apocalypse, the Daynes will arrive at the conclusion that at such circumstances, one shouldn't be a stickler for formalities :p

[LmL]

This was my rethought too. Perhaps at that point you're just looking for someone who is capable.. but it's just speculation.

Thing is, something is up with the Dayens, we know that, but we don't have a whole lot to go on.

[Kingmonkey]

I thought it's believed 'in universe' because it's accepted that that's what many men do in times of war, rather than anything to do with Ned's personality specifically?

Sure, but don't you think it's notable that the only people who dismiss this being possible in Ned's case are book readers, rather than the characters in those books who know him.

I have no problem with this being out of character for Ned, but sometimes people do something that's a bit out of character. I find it hard to accept the notion that it's something Ned simply would not do, when none of the characters who know him far better than we readers do seem to have believed that.

[TheSmallOther]

:ack:

Perhaps facing an ice zombie apocalypse, the Daynes will arrive at the conclusion that at such circumstances, one shouldn't be a stickler for formalities :P

"You, in the stables! Can you wield the sword? It appears we just have one spare left. And just in case you don't know, north is that way."

I was always wondering who decides on the Dawn's wielder. Is there some comitee of elders, or is it a classical magical way when sword (wand) itself chooses the wielder. Of course, the latter more fits Harry Potter or King Arthur, but maybe GRRM decided to add a bit of such tales into his own story.

[corbon]

Sure, but don't you think it's notable that the only people who dismiss this being possible in Ned's case are book readers, rather than the characters in those books who know him.

I have no problem with this being out of character for Ned, but sometimes people do something that's a bit out of character. I find it hard to accept the notion that it's something Ned simply would not do, when none of the characters who know him far better than we readers do seem to have believed that.

There are two important differences between Readers and characters-who-know-Ned-well.

First, readers have really been inside Ned's head. This isn't fallible, but it means that we do actually have means of knowing him deeper than any character, even Catelyn. Its clear several of the things he thinks that we see are thoughts he would never make plain to anyone else. Like the danger of some secrets or how far Catelyn would go if their children were at risk, for example.

Second, perhaps even more importantly, characters are faced with the palpable fact (to them) that he did do this. The physical evidence is right there in front of them and so is his own word. Its the old conundrum - if he's so honourable he wouldn't do that then you have to believe him when he behaves as though he did. So that knowledge is a base foundation of their thinking. They don't think 'he wouldn't slip up like that so he must be lying' because thats fundamentally inconsistent both internally (the conundrum) and externally (the proof he did slip up is right there in front of them - he treats Jon, who looks like him, as his bastard). That only leaves them with simple acceptance that he could slip up like that because he did slip up like that. For them, the character evidence is conflicted but the physical evidence is clear and matches some of the character evidence so they shrug and accept the conflict between apparent character and apparent action.

However, we as readers are faced with the palpable fact that all the evidence suggests that he did not slip up (even aside from Ned's own internals, all the reliable data points to Jon being Lyanna's son by Rhaegar) so we don't have this fundamental problem. For us the character evidence is consistent and the physical evidence is well explained so we don't even have anything to shrug away when coming to the opposite conclusion than that of those who know Ned best.

I don't think you've really thought through this objection beyond the superficial.

[Shinjuku Thief]

Sure, but don't you think it's notable that the only people who dismiss this being possible in Ned's case are book readers, rather than the characters in those books who know him.

I have no problem with this being out of character for Ned, but sometimes people do something that's a bit out of character. I find it hard to accept the notion that it's something Ned simply would not do, when none of the characters who know him far better than we readers do seem to have believed that.

Sure it's possible for someone even with Ned's sense of honour to do something out of character, or simply make a mistake.

We shouldn’t forget that the characters in the books have to parse the existence (often face to face) with the tangible product of Ned's alleged actions, as well as hear the actual words of admission out of Ned's very own mouth. This is a very different experience of reality to that of people reading a story.

Book readers have the advantage of knowing many of Ned's inner workings that he refuses to share with any of the people that know or even love him, as well as other pieces in the jigsaw that might lead us to question the truth.

Whilst Ned is easily readable, due to the secrets that he keeps I’d say he’s a difficult person to really know.

Edit: corbon expressed what I was trying to say in a much clearer fashion.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

If Allyria is Ashara's daughter, my money would be on Ned rather than Brandon being the father though.

Agree.

That would go against what we know about Ned. Ned was never the boy he was.

Not really. I have a theory about how this could hapen. It has an interesting twist, imnsho, about Ned' broken promises and how they can be related with Ashara and Allyria.

Well, first I think you're making too much out of Ned's feelings for Ashara. Wanting to dance with a beautiful woman = / = being in love with. Ned never thinks of Ashara in the present day. Not even in passing. So whatever he felt it wasn't significant enough to warrant thought in his life. Second, Brandon "bloodied his sword a lot"...don't think his younger brother's passing attraction would stop him.

This is one of the thoughts that make me angry. Someone likes sex so for some strange reason he has no boundaries and his family means nothing to him.