The Lion’s Shadow: Why Kevan Lannister Doesn’t Deserve His Good Rep

[Annara Snow]

Women were raped by the Westerland and Northern men in the Riverlands

Because terrorizing the country was Tywin's policy, as was Roose'.

women were raped by the Ironborn men in the North

Because that's the policy and methods of the Ironborn.

and women were most likely raped in the Westerlands by the Northerners when Robb was paying back the Lannisters in kind

No comment.

Maybe we should start prosecuting people for things they "most likely" did?

Though it seems like you're the proponent of the opposite, "let's not blame anyone for any crimes". Hey, let's stop prosecuting crimes like rape or murder altogether? Since, you know, they "happen" a lot today, too, in war and in peacetime.

As awful as it is, rape and death to innocents happens in medieval warfare.

No, they do not "happen", as if they're natural disasters. Earthquakes happen. Rape and murder are the things that certain people do, crimes they commit.

[BryndenBFish]

So he admits he wasn't even there during the sack and you are going to take his likely exaggeration for fact?

Jorah says "I saw King's Landing after the sack." Ned's army arrives at King's Landing just after the sack, probably a matter of hours given that Ned rides into the Red Keep and Jaime is still sitting on the Iron Throne. And FWIW, Ned seems haunted by the sack leading me to believe that Jorah isn't exaggering:

"Treachery was a coin the Targaryens knew well," Robert said. The anger was building in him again. "Lannister paid them back in kind. It was no less than they deserved. I shall not trouble my sleep over it."

"You were not there," Ned said, bitterness in his voice. Troubled sleep was no stranger to him. He had lived his lies for fourteen years, yet they still haunted him at night. "There was no honor in that conquest." (AGOT, Eddard II)

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Commonality is not ethical justification by any stretch. The rapes and murders were ordered

Don't be ridiculous.

You really think he ordered his men to specifically rape certain people?

Of course he didn't, he didn't stop them, but he didn't order them to do it either.

Because terrorizing the country was Tywin's policy, as was Roose'.

Not at all.

Because that's the policy and methods of the Ironborn.

And the Northern soldiers, Westerland soldiers, the Reach and Stormland soldiers were discussing raping Brienne.

It is pretty common throughout the military of Westeros.

Maybe we should start prosecuting people for things they "most likely" did?

My thoughts exactly. Find a quote were Tywin orders rapes to happen in Kings Landing or the Riverlands and then come down on him.

You are judging Tywin on what you think he ordered. What a hypocrite.

No, they do not "happen", as if they're natural disasters. Earthquakes happen. Rape and murder are the things that certain people do, crimes they commit.

Yes, they do happen. Something being common does not have to be an act of God.

Pillaging and plundering was common in medieval conquering armies.

Though it seems like you're the proponent of the opposite, "let's not blame anyone for any crimes". Hey, let's stop prosecuting crimes like rape or murder altogether? Since, you know, they "happen" a lot today, too, in war and in peacetime

wow

Instant straw man argument right there.

[Lady Darry]

Hey Lady Darry! (I assume the same one from /r/asoiaf?).

Yes :)

Women were raped by the Westerland and Northern men in the Riverlands, women were raped by the Ironborn men in the North and women were most likely raped in the Westerlands by the Northerners when Robb was paying back the Lannisters in kind. As awful as it is, rape and death to innocents happens in medieval warfare.

Singling out Kevan for a common practice seems petty.

The difference is that as Ned said there was no honor in that conquest. They were invited and soldiers were not bloodied on the battlefield. They were not supposed to cause so much damage. There's a difference between soldiers who were in war for months and ‘fresh’ soldiers. Which mean they could be stopped.

So he admits he wasn't even there during the sack and you are going to take his likely exaggeration for fact?

He was there. Yes, Lannisters were there first, but Northerners saw the aftermath.

And back to OP (Just like I said on reddit):

Great essay! He admired his brother and he loved him. He followed him without question or doubt. It was not just duty it was love and admiration. So we can't say he just followed orders because he had to. He agreed with orders. HS is capable of masterminding Walk of shame. But GRRM left it ambiguous. It was his idea to show us a example of such punishment from Lannister history and not Faith history. If GRRM would want us to be 100% that it was HS idea he could gave us a example of such an action from history. But he gave us a example of Tytos mistress. So there's a possibility that it was Kevan's idea.

[Lady Blackmont]

So the soldiers just marched into a city which threw its gates open and attacked and raped innocents on their own volition?

Someone told them to rape and pillage. Tywin could have forbade it at the very least, as Dany did. A few castrated Westermen is better than the sack.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

The difference is that as Ned said there was no honor in that conquest. They were invited and soldiers were not bloodied on the battlefield. They were not supposed to cause so much damage. There's a difference between soldiers who were in war for months and ‘fresh’ soldiers. Which mean they could be stopped.

Ridiculous.

Tywin had a matter of hours to secure the city gates, the port, the Gold Cloaks and the thousands of loyalists in the city, Aerys, the Royal Family, Small Council.

That is far from easy.

So the soldiers just marched into a city which threw its gates open and attacked and raped innocents on their own volition?

Tywin may have been in the city but so to where the Gold Cloaks and thousands of loyalists.

They didnt open the gates and put put down their weapons and surrender.

[Annara Snow]

Don't be ridiculous.

You really think he ordered his men to specifically rape certain people?

Of course he didn't, he didn't stop them, but he didn't order them to do it either.

Not at all.

And the Northern soldiers, Westerland soldiers, the Reach and Stormland soldiers were discussing raping Brienne.

It is pretty common throughout the military of Westeros.

My thoughts exactly. Find a quote were Tywin orders rapes to happen in Kings Landing or the Riverlands and then come down on him.

You are judging Tywin on what you think he ordered. What a hypocrite.

:rofl:

Yes, that must be why he sent Gregor Clegane, of all people, to lead a campaign in the Riverlands to do... uh, what exactly do you think he was sending the Mountain to do?

Or why he hired the Bloody Mummers, a sellsword company so vile they are despised in Essos.

And we've seen what went on in Harrenhal, so don't try this bullshit defense.

Straw Man - ah yes, you know what a great example of Straw Man is that Tywin specifically ordered his men to rape "certain people". :rolleyes: Oh course he didn't do that during war... unlike when he specifically ordered his men and his 13-year old son to gang rape Tysha. He doesn't know the names of the smallfolk in the Riverlands or KL, how could he order anyone to specifically rape some of them? He doesn't even care for them, they're barely people for him. What he did was send people known for raping, killing civilians, torturing and doing all kinds of terrible shit in order to terrorize the countryside.

[Annara Snow]

So the soldiers just marched into a city which threw its gates open and attacked and raped innocents on their own volition?

Someone told them to rape and pillage. Tywin could have forbade it at the very least, as Dany did. A few castrated Westermen is better than the sack.

It's because widdle Tywin was unable to stop them. He was such a weak leader and unable to keep discipline among his men, poor thing. :dunno:

[thelittledragonthatcould]

:rofl:

Yes, that must be why he sent Gregor Clegane, of all people, to lead a campaign in the Riverlands to do... uh, what exactly do you think he was sending the Mountain to do?

To apply pressure on the Riverlords who kidnapped his son.

Or why he hired the Bloody Mummers, a sellsword company so vile they are despised in Essos.

Foraging. He is pretty clear on that.

Is hiring the Bloody Mummers a crime? The North hired them after Tywin. Infact many of the sellswords who were on the Lannisters side at Riverrun changed sides when Jaime was beat.

There are vicious sellswords on both sides.

And we've seen what went on in Harrenhal, so don't try this bullshit defense.

lol

You are so funny

Straw Man - ah yes, you know what a great example of Straw Man is that Tywin specifically ordered his men to rape "certain people". :rolleyes: Oh course he didn't do that during war... unlike when he specifically ordered his men and his 13-year old son to gang rape Tysha. He doesn't know the names of the smallfolk in the Riverlands or KL, how could he order anyone to specifically rape some of them? He doesn't even care for them, they're barely people for him. What he did was send people known for raping, killing civilians, torturing and doing all kinds of terrible shit in order to terrorize the countryside.

Yup. Same on every side. Every army is full of vicious bastards, they are usually the ones you want in a medieval army. I'm surprised that you dont understand this.

[Lady Blackmont]

So you're saying it's fine that Tywin sanctioned rape just because it was "the thing to do" in the period?

"I'm surprised that you don't understand this."

[John Doe]

Sorry, but in fact obeying ones older brother was seen as a virtue back then, just like obeying ones father. Plus the Northeners did pretty much similar atroceties as the westerlands, only that the Riverlands were their allies, not their enemies. So we can't hold this against him.

Tyrion doesn't know his uncle too well, as we saw when he said his uncle wasn't made to lead, which was contraedicted in ADWD. I don't think it makes sense to trust his judgement here.

What remains is the caring brother and talented regent we saw in the ADWD epilogue.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

So you're saying it's fine that Tywin sanctioned rape just because it was "the thing to do" in the period?

"I'm surprised that you don't understand this."

Nope.

What I actually said is that singling out Kevan for something that is both common in Westeros and our own medieval history seems pretty petty.

[John Doe]

I agree with alittlledragon here.

[Lady Blackmont]

Nope.

What I actually said is that singling out Kevan for something that is both common in Westeros and our own medieval history seems pretty petty.

He's not.

Brynden is attempting to make people see that Kevan is less peachy than he is made out to be. It's not petty, no more than a thread on Tyrion's crimes.

Or do you think we should dismiss criticism of Tyrion's rape of a slave because people in Volantis do it everyday, and singling out Tyrion is petty?

[TheCasualObserver]

Very interesting stuff Brynden.

I suppose I don't hold as much contempt for Kevan as I do for his big brother because he blindly follows orders, just as tens of thousands of soldiers do in any army. Jaime's assessment of Steelshanks Walton is a good comparison. Kevan is certainly no Saint though and you might be right for thinking he gets too much appreciation.

I'm always in two minds about Cersei's walk; on the one hand it's a hideous patriarchal construct designed to put "wanton" women in their place. On the other hand it's a deeply thematic result of Cersei's prideful behavior throughout her life. Seeing the faces of the people who's lives she has ruined during the Walk is also a fairly clear sign that even Cersei is subconsciously aware that this is a kind of karmic punishment for many of the reprehensible things she has done.

And again, whilst Kevan planning this humiliation is a cruel thing to do, it's not as if he doesn't have just cause to dislike Cersei and fear her controlling Kl and Casterly Rock. Her callous and calculated treatment of his son has left Lancel mentally and physically devastated and now devoted to a dangerous cult. There's simply no getting around the fact that Cersei is an incredibly bad leader of the Lannister cause and is doing much to plow it into the ground as fast as she can. Simply removing her from the custody of the faith puts them in the same position they were in before, likely leading to Cersei dismissing Kevan again and jumping back on her downward slope. If Kevan saw this as his best chance to render Cersei politically inert in defence of the family cause, I still have some sympathy for him.

[Annara Snow]

To apply pressure on the Riverlords who kidnapped his son.

Foraging. He is pretty clear on that.

Is hiring the Bloody Mummers a crime? The North hired them after Tywin. Infact many of the sellswords who were on the Lannisters side at Riverrun changed sides when Jaime was beat.

There are vicious sellswords on both sides.

lol

You are so funny

Yes, the Harrenhal storyline was such a hoot.

Yup. Same on every side. Every army is full of vicious bastards, they are usually the ones you want in a medieval army. I'm surprised that you dont understand this.

I'm surprised you don't know that moral relativism is a really pathetic way to defend criminals.

He's not.

Brynden is attempting to make people see that Kevan is less peachy than he is made out to be. It's not petty, no more than a thread on Tyrion's crimes.

Or do you think we should dismiss criticism of Tyrion's rape of a slave because people in Volantis do it everyday, and singling out Tyrion is petty?

It's petty to blame anyone for anything. People murder, rape, rob, kidnap, commit terrorist acts. commit war crimes all the time today. Look at the crime statistics or read the papers. I think we should just let everyone do whatever they want. :dunno:

[John Doe]

I'm surprised you don't know that moral relativism is a really pathetic way to defend criminals.

True.

We should kill Dany since she doesn't establish democracy in Mereen.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Yes, the Harrenhal storyline was such a hoot.

I'm surprised you don't know that moral relativism is a really pathetic way to defend criminals.

Don't get your knickers in a twist over fictional characters.

It's petty to blame anyone for anything. People murder, rape, rob, kidnap, commit terrorist acts. commit war crimes all the time today. Look at the crime statistics or read the papers. I think we should just let everyone do whatever they want. :dunno:

Yes, that is exactly what I am doing. Endorsing all of the above in modern times just because I am adding context to fictional characters.

[BryndenBFish]

Sorry, but in fact obeying ones older brother was seen as a virtue back then, just like obeying ones father. Plus the Northeners did pretty much similar atroceties as the westerlands, only that the Riverlands were their allies, not their enemies. So we can't hold this against him.

Tyrion doesn't know his uncle too well, as we saw when he said his uncle wasn't made to lead, which was contraedicted in ADWD. I don't think it makes sense to trust his judgement here.

What remains is the caring brother and talented regent we saw in the ADWD epilogue.

Kevan Lannister has a choice. He could not follow the immoral orders of Tywin Lannister or he could say "They will burn, my lord." He chose the latter. There is no form of cultural relativity which excuses the murder of innocents. And this "everyone else did it too!" argument is moral equivocation and not convincing. Rape and murder are wrong objectively, regardless of the side committing the acts.

[Annara Snow]

True.

We should kill Dany since she doesn't establish democracy in Mereen.

Exactly, not establishing democracy = ordering mass murder, rape, burning and pillaging. Makes sense.