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The Lion’s Shadow: Why Kevan Lannister Doesn’t Deserve His Good Rep


BryndenBFish

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I can't take such analysis seriously, meanwhile Robb Stark gets away with his morally dubious actions, but of course Kevan Lannister deserves more bad rep.

If the analysis was centered around "General Morality in ASOIAF" or "Robb Stark's morality", then there would be room to account for multiple characters or an examination of Kevan Lannister. Instead, this analysis is centered around Kevan Lannister. I'm just at a loss with everyone equivocating over the relative morality of Kevan Lannister compared to everyone else in the series. I get it. Everyone is at fault. But, the argument of "Everyone else is just as bad or worse!" misses the point about Kevan. Not Robb, not Wyman, not Roose, not Tyrion, not Jaime. Kevan. I am not picking on Kevan Lannister, because he's a Lannister. I'm examining his actions, because I find them a good study, worthy of some analysis and theorycrafting.

But here, let's clear the air. I'm not a Stark, Baratheon, Lannister, Tully, Targaryen, Martell or any factional loyalist or fan boy. I care about what makes for a good story. And I care about the thematic side of the story and examining the ethics and morality of the characters in the story. Yes, I've written about Stannis Baratheon & Robb Stark as military commanders. But I've also written about Tywin, Jaime & Daenerys as well. On the opinion side, yeah, I do want Stannis to defeat Roose Bolton & the Freys in the upcoming Battle of Winterfell. But my favorite character in the entirety of the series is Jaime Lannister.

Is that clear enough for everyone? Do we need more "Well, everyone else is just as bad, you Stark/Baratheon/whatever fanboy" arguments or can we talk specifically about Kevan Lannister?

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Let me see if I can explain from memory. I'm travelling today and tomorrow so I don't have access to the books.

1.After Willem Lannister is killed at Riverrun we are told by Tyrion that Tywin is reliant on him to deal with things as Kevan is in mourning, spending all his time with the still recuperating Lancel, who we know has been spending all his time with the High Septon.

2. Kevan is pissed with Cersei after Tywins death and refuses to take the Handship and tells her that he knows about her and Jaime.

3. Cersei panics and runs to Jaime. She can't tell Jaime how Kevan knows, as Jaime mentions that the Stannis letter has been out for a year or so. She blames it on Tyrion and also says that Tyrion probably told the High Septon (which makes no sense at all)

4. Jaime pieces it together as he knows it is Lancel who has been spending all his time with the High Septon and not the imprisoned Tyrion. After she leaves he even says that tedious phrase "Lancel and Moonboy..." as he makes the connection

5. We actually got to see the Kevan and Tyrion meeting and IIRC there is no mention from Tyrion about the twins fucking eachother so Cersei claiming that is how Kevan found out is wrong.

6. Cersei plans the murder of the High Septon and, again, IIRC contemplates removing the sickly Lancel(though I am a bit iffy on that part)

I'm not sure this is accurate. While Kevan does indeed tell Cersei that Tommen "has his father too." I think it's more likely that Kevan picked up the info from Stannis letter but refused to say anything publicly while Tywin lived and his "honor" was intact. After Cersei insulted him & snubbed him, he was under no obligation to keep silent. That said, I think the info came to light after Cersei's arrest. We have scattered info on what Lancel told his father elsewhere. While Kevan might have been playing sly, he seems pretty genuine when he talks with Tyrion in ASOS about Lancel:

His uncle Kevan had been the warmest, going so far as to kiss his cheek and say, "Lancel has told me how brave you were, Tyrion. He speaks very highly of you."

He'd better, or I'll have a few things to say of him. "My good cousin is too kind. His wound is healing, I trust?"

Ser Kevan frowned. "One day he seems stronger, the next . . . it is worrisome. Your sister often visits his sickbed, to lift his spirits and pray for him." (ASOS, Tyrion III)

Here's how Lancel's confession is recounted to High Septon 2:

Lancel nodded, plainly miserable. "When it seemed that I might die, my father brought the High Septon to pray for me. He is a good man." Her cousin's eyes were wet and shiny, a child's eyes in an old man's face. "He says the Mother spared me for some holy purpose, so I might atone for my sins." (AFFC, Cersei II)

This High Septon is later murdered at Cersei's orders. It's only after Cersei confesses that Lancel confronts Cersei about sleeping with Lancel. He knows of the incest between Jaime & Cersei, but the Lancel piece does not enter into the discussion until ADWD, Cersei I.

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Let me see if I can explain from memory. I'm travelling today and tomorrow so I don't have access to the books.

1.After Willem Lannister is killed at Riverrun we are told by Tyrion that Tywin is reliant on him to deal with things as Kevan is in mourning, spending all his time with the still recuperating Lancel, who we know has been spending all his time with the High Septon.

2. Kevan is pissed with Cersei after Tywins death and refuses to take the Handship and tells her that he knows about her and Jaime.

3. Cersei panics and runs to Jaime. She can't tell Jaime how Kevan knows, as Jaime mentions that the Stannis letter has been out for a year or so. She blames it on Tyrion and also says that Tyrion probably told the High Septon (which makes no sense at all)

4. Jaime pieces it together as he knows it is Lancel who has been spending all his time with the High Septon and not the imprisoned Tyrion. After she leaves he even says that tedious phrase "Lancel and Moonboy..." as he makes the connection

5. We actually got to see the Kevan and Tyrion meeting and IIRC there is no mention from Tyrion about the twins fucking eachother so Cersei claiming that is how Kevan found out is wrong.

6. Cersei plans the murder of the High Septon and, again, IIRC contemplates removing the sickly Lancel(though I am a bit iffy on that part)

Ok. For now I'll try to counter your points as I disagree with them.

1. Does not mean that Lancel told Kevan at that point. If my memory serves me right, Lancel started to spend time with High Septon after he recovered enough to not be bedridden.

2. Kevan did not sound pissed at all during that dialogue with Cersei. He did not want Cersei to rule and did not want to work with Cersei and he explained his position with good arguments. There is no need for him to know about Lancel to tell her what he did. And the large part of what he was saying to her was what Tywin wanted to do anyway so in a sense he was really pointing out Tywin's opinion about her that he agreed with himself. Nothing to do with Lancel.

3. It did seem to me that Cersei was genuine when she was telling about Tyrion. He did indeed know about incest and he could have told Kevan as well. And Cersei considered the High Septon Tyrion's man and accomplice (that's why she killed him in the first place) that's why she thought that Tyrion may have told him as well.

4. Jaime certainly did not piece anything together. He in the later chapter specifically though how Lancel did not know about him and Cersei. I have provided the quote before in this thread. And why would he, anyway? He did not believe Tyrion about Cersei and Lancel at that point. And the only time Jaime thinks about that phrase about Moon Boy after Cersei leaves was when he noticed Osmund Kettleblack next morning.

5. Cersei thinks that's how Kevan found out. She does not know for sure. We know that she is wrong but she doesn't.

6. I've already told my opinion about High Septon above.

There is also really nothing that indicates that Lancel knew about Cersei and Jaime in the first place.

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I think this is a really good analysis. I have been lurking around here for a few days trying to decide how I feel about your topic.



This definitely puts a different light on Kevan Lannister My main argument against these assumptions is that while we are in Kevan's head we get the sense that he feels guilty about his actions towards Cersei (as you have pointed out a few times yourself). I would say this might be one of the main reasons readers are not so quick to throw him into the same limelight as Tywin. We never get a POV with Tywin, but I am sure most of us can safely assume he probably did not feel that much remorse for the things he did. Now, Kevan's thought never really encompass the atrocities that occurred earlier in the series (such as the RW and burning of the Riverlands) but who is to say he does not feel any guilt towards them? I suspect we will never know.

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Robb Stark on the other hand does not feel guilty about the atroceties the wolves committed in the allied Riverlands, and the Westerlands.

I agree with you about Robb, and disagree with the thought that Kevan was especially bad, he was pretty much your average Westerosi nobleman.

But Robb is not on trial here, mate, Kevan is.

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Kavan's relationship with other Westerosi doesn't come into it. If you want to compare, make a thread.

Brynden is attempting to raise awareness about some of Kevan's less awesome attributes. I don't see why there is so much pushback.

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Kavan's relationship with other Westerosi doesn't come into it. If you want to compare, make a thread.

Brynden is attempting to raise awareness about some of Kevan's less awesome attributes. I don't see why there is so much pushback.

There is usually debate about most things here as we all don't have the same opinion. I'm sure BB posted it to encourage discussion, not simply have people nod in agreement .

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There is usually debate about most things here as we all don't have the same opinion. I'm sure BB posted it to encourage discussion, not simply have people nod in agreement .

Yes. I enjoy a good discussion. But while there has been some debate and good points, there's been a weird current of personal attacks (You are a Stark/Stannis fanboy!) or attacks against the works of people who write on the same blog as me that are off-topic.

But putting that aside, I am interested if you've thought more about when Kevan found out about Cersei & Lancel. Yesterday, you indicated that you thought it happened around the time that Lancel started praying with the High Septon (the one right before the High Sparrow). I still don't think so and think that Kevan's knowledge of Cersei's incest came through Stannis' letter and that he only found out about Lancel after Cersei's arrest. Thoughts?

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But putting that aside, I am interested if you've thought more about when Kevan found out about Cersei & Lancel. Yesterday, you indicated that you thought it happened around the time that Lancel started praying with the High Septon (the one right before the High Sparrow). I still don't think so and think that Kevan's knowledge of Cersei's incest came through Stannis' letter and that he only found out about Lancel after Cersei's arrest. Thoughts?

I'm still pretty sure that Lancel told both his Father and the High Septon that he had been sleeping with Cersei, whether he told them about, or even knew, about the Twins sleeping together doesn't matter as I think Kevan could piece it together himself from Lancel's confession and what Stannis had wrote.

I kind of thought it was obvious as I've always interpreted it like that and thought most did as well, but seeing as how many on here didn't jump to the same conclusions I could be wrong.

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I'm still pretty sure that Lancel told both his Father and the High Septon that he had been sleeping with Cersei, whether he told them about, or even knew, about the Twins sleeping together doesn't matter as I think Kevan could piece it together himself from Lancel's confession and what Stannis had wrote.

I kind of thought it was obvious as I've always interpreted it like that and thought most did as well, but seeing as how many on here didn't jump to the same conclusions I could be wrong.

I agree with this, it seems the most logical chain of events to me. Kevan had heard about the twins first from Stannis's letter and made an educated guess about Jaime and Cersei after learning about Lancel and Cersei from Lancel as well as his involment with Robert's death (implying for some reason Cersei really neened Robert dead at that point). Cersei and Jaime's behaviour confirmed twincest to Kevan after he has made his comment to Cersei.

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When High Septon charged Cersei with sleeping with Lancel and regicide, he took those charges from Lancel's confession. When he spoke to her about incest, he only mentioned the rumors that exist about that. I think it's pretty safe to say that Lancel did not tell him about incest and probably didn't even know about it (why would Lancel know about it, anyway? From Cersei? Why would Cersei tell him that?).



Whether Lancel told Kevan about him and Cersei in the beginning of FfC is hard to tell but I don't think that there is anything indicating to that. Kevan did not mention that when he was speaking with Cersei back then and did not even hint on it in any way, and he had the balls to tell her than he knows about her and Jaime. Imo, but Lancel telling everything to the previous HS =/= telling everything to his father. Like today many religious people come to a priest to speak about their sins that they refuse to tell anyone else about, so did Lancel tell HS what he was afraid to tell anyone else due to shame, regret and guilt, or else why speak with HS in the first place? He did confess everything to Jaime later though, but that was when he decided to abandon his whole past life and devout himself to the Faith. In the beginning of the Feast he was still set on marrying Amerei and becoming lord of Darry to please his father.


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