Heresy 173

[Black Crow]

Welcome to Heresy 173, this week’s edition of the thread which tries to take a thoughtful, often sideways and occasionally irreverent look at the Song of Ice and Fire.

If new to the game, don’t be intimidated by the size and scope of Heresy, or by some of the ideas we’ve discussed here over the years since 2011. This is very much a come as you are thread with no previous experience required. We’re very welcoming and very good at talking in circles and we don’t mind going over old ground again, especially with a fresh pair of eyes, so just ask, but be patient and observe the local house rules that the debate be conducted by reference to the text, with respect for the ideas of others, and above all with great good humour

Heresy is not of itself a theory and heretics do not as a group take and hold a particular stance on issues, or even agree with each other. Instead it’s a free-flowing and above all a very friendly series of open discussions and arguments, usually concerned with the Wall, the Otherlands which lie beyond; warging, skinchanging, greenseeing, the old gods, the children and the white walkers - and the possible Stark connection to both.

GRRM’s original synopsis from 1993, [transcribed below as usual] emphasises that the story is followed through five related story arcs, not one. Clearly the story has changed and moved in a number of interesting directions since then but above it does not simply revolve around the question of Jon Snow’s father, which appears to be very much a secondary issue, for the resolution of an altogether much larger and much richer story.

The strength and the beauty and ultimately the value of Heresy as a critical discussion group is that it reflects this diversity. This is a thread where ideas can be discussed – and argued – freely, because above all it is about an exchange of ideas and sometimes too a remarkably well informed exchange drawing upon an astonishing broad base of literature ranging through Joseph Conrad’s Heart of Darkness [which has had a surprisingly strong influence] and so many others all to the way to the Táin Bó Cúailnge and the Mabinogion; it’s about history [and especially that vastle under-rated date of1189] It’s about mythology, archaeology, ringworks and chambered tombs and even heroic geology, but above all it’s about the Song of Ice and Fire.

If new to Heresy you may also want to refer to to Wolfmaid's essential guide to Heresy: http://asoiaf.wester...uide-to-heresy/, which provides annotated links to all the previous editions of Heresy, latterly identified by topic. Be warned though that Heresy is constantly moving and evolving and that what was once regarded as important may now be exploded.

Beyond that, read on.

[Black Crow]

October 1993

Dear Ralph,

Here are the first thirteen chapters (170 pages) of the high fantasy novel I promised you, which I'm calling A Game of Thrones. When completed, this will be the first volume in what I see as an epic trilogy with the overall title, A Song of Ice and Fire.

As you know, I don't outline my novels. I find that if I know exactly where a book is going, I lose all interest in writing it. I do, however, have some strong notions as to the overall structure of the story I'm telling, and the eventual fate of many of the principle [sic] characters in the drama.

Roughly speaking, there are three major conflicts set in motion in the chapters enclosed. These will form the major plot threads of the trilogy, intertwining with each other in what should be a complex but exciting (I hope) narrative tapestry. Each of the conflicts presents a major threat to the peace of my imaginary realm, the Seven Kingdoms, and to the lives of the principal characters.

The first threat grows from the enmity between the great houses of Lannister and Stark as it plays out in a cycle of plot, counterplot, ambition, murder, and revenge, with the iron throne of the Seven Kingdoms as the ultimate prize. This will form the backbone of the first volume of the trilogy, A Game of Thrones.

While the lion of Lannister and the direwolf of Stark snarl and scrap, however, a second and greater threat takes shape across the narrow sea, where the Dothraki horselords mass their barbarians hordes for a great invasion of the Seven Kingdoms, led by the fierce and beautiful Daenerys Stormborn, the last of the Targaryen dragonlords. The Dothraki invasion will be the central story of my second volume,A Dance with Dragons.

The greatest danger of all, however, comes from the north, from the icy wastes beyond the Wall, where half-forgotten demons out of legend, the inhuman others, raise cold legions of the undead and the neverborn and prepare to ride down on the winds of winter to extinguish everything that we would call "life." The only thing that stands between the Seven Kingdoms and and endless night is the Wall, and a handful of men in black called the Night's Watch. Their story will be the heart of my third volume, The Winds of Winter. The final battle will also draw together characters and plot threads left from the first two books and resolve all in one huge climax.

The thirteen chapters on hand should give you a notion as to my narrative strategy. All three books will feature a complex mosaic of intercutting points-of-view among various of my large and diverse cast of players. The cast will not always remains the same. Old characters will die, and new ones will be introduced. Some of the fatalities will include sympathetic viewpoint characters. I want the reader to feel that no one is ever completely safe, not even the characters who seem to be the heroes. The suspense always ratchets up a notch when you know that any character can die at any time.

Five central characters will make it through all three volumes, however, growing from children to adults and changing the world and themselves in the process. In a sense, my trilogy is almost a generational saga, telling the life stories of these five characters, three men and two women. The five key players are Tyrion Lannister, Daenerys Targaryen, and three of the children of Winterfell, Arya, Bran, and the bastard Jon Snow. All of them are introduced at some length in the chapters you have to hand.

This is going to be (I hope) quite an epic. Epic in its scale, epic in its action, and epic in its length. I see all three volumes as big books, running about 700 to 800 manuscript pages, so things are just barely getting underway in the thirteen chapters I've sent you.

I have quite a clear notion of how the story is going to unfold in the first volume, A Game of Thrones. Things will get a lot worse for the poor Starks before they get better, I'm afraid. Lord Eddard Stark and his wife Catelyn Tully are both doomed, and will perish at the hands of their enemies. Ned will discover what happened to his friend Jon Arryn, but before he can act on his knowledge, King Robert will have an unfortunate accident, and the throne will pass to his sullen and brutal son Joffrey, still a minor. Joffrey will not be sympathetic and Ned will be accused of treason, but before he is taken he will help his wife and his daughter escape back to Winterfell.

Each of the contending families will learn it has a member of dubious loyalty in its midst. Sansa Stark, wed to Joffrey Baratheon, will bear him a son, the heir to the throne, and when the crunch comes she will choose her husband and child over her parents and siblings, a choice she will later bitterly rue. Tyrion Lannister, meanwhile, befriend both Sansa and her sister Arya, while growing more and more disenchanted with his own family.

Young Bran will come out of his coma, after a strange prophetic dream, only to discover that he will never walk again. He will turn to magic, at first in the hope of restoring his legs, but later for its own sake. When his father Eddard Stark is executed, Bran will see the shape of doom descending on all of them, but nothing he can say will stop his brother Robb from calling the banners in rebellion. All the north will be inflamed by war. Robb will win several splendid victories, and maim Joffrey Baratheon on the battlefield, but in the end he will not be able to stand against Jaime and Tyrion Lannister and their allies. Robb Stark will die in battle, and Tyrion Lannister will besiege and burn Winterfell.

Jon Snow, the bastard, will remain in the far north. He will mature into a ranger of great daring, and ultimately will succeed his uncle as the commander of the Night's Watch. When Winterfell burns, Catelyn Stark will be forced to flee north with her son Bran and her daughter Arya. Hounded by Lannister riders, they will seek refuge at the Wall, but the men of the Night's Watch give up their families when they take the black, and Jon and Benjen will not be able to help, to Jon's anguish. It will lead to a bitter estrangement between Jon and Bran. Arya will be more forgiving... until she realizes, with terror, that she has fallen in love with Jon, who is not only her half-brother but a man of the Night's Watch, sworn to celibacy. Their passion will continue to torment Jon and Arya throughout the trilogy, until the secret of Jon's true parentage is finally revealed in the last book.

Abandoned by the Night's Watch, Catelyn and her children will find their only hope of safety lies even further north, beyond the Wall, where they fall into the hands of Mance Rayder, the King-beyond-the-Wall, and get a dreadful glimpse of the inhuman others as they attack the wildling encampment. Bran's magic, Arya's sword Needle, and the savagery of their direwolves will help them survive, but their mother Catelyn will die at the hands of the others.

Over across the narrow sea, Daenerys Targaryen will discover that her new husband, the Dothraki Khal Drogo, has little interest in invading the Seven Kingdoms, much to her brother's frustration. When Viserys presses his claims past the point of tact or wisdom, Khal Drogo will finally grow annoyed and kill him out of hand, eliminating the Targaryen pretender and leaving Daenerys as the last of her line. Daenerys will bide her time, but she will not forget. When the moment is right, she will kill her husband to avenge her brother, and then flee with a trusted friend into the wilderness beyond Vaes Dothrak. There, hunted by Dothraki bloodriders [?] of her life, she stumbles on a cache of dragon's eggs [?] of a young dragon will give Daenerys the power to bend the Dothraki to her will. Then she begins to plan for her invasion of the Seven Kingdoms.

Tyrion Lannister will continue to travel, to plot, and to play the game of thrones, finally removing his nephew Joffrey in disgust at the boy king's brutality. Jaime Lannister will follow Joffrey on the throne of the Seven Kingdoms, by the simple expedient of killing everyone ahead of him in the line of succession and blaming his brother Tyrion for the murders. Exiled, Tyrion will change sides, making common cause with surviving Starks to bring his brother down, and falling helplessly in love with Arya Stark while he's at it. His passion is, alas, unreciprocated, but no less intense for that, and it will lead to a deadly rivalry between Tyrion and Snow.

[7 Lines Redacted]

But that's the second book...

I hope you'll find some editors who are as excited about all of this as I am. Feel free to share this letter with anyone who wants to know how the story will go.

All best,

George R.R. Martin

What’s in that redacted passage we don’t know but here’s what appears to be the equally spoilerish original synopsis/publisher’s blurb for Winds of Winter; not the forthcoming one, alas, but one apparently dating back to when it was still to be the third volume of the trilogy and following directly on in content and style from the first synopsis set out above:

Continuing the most imaginative and ambitious epic fantasy since The Lord of the Rings Winter has come at last and no man can say whether it will ever go again. The Wall is broken, the cold dead legions are coming south, and the people of the Seven Kingdoms turn to their queen to protect them. But Daenerys Targaryen is learning what Robert Baratheon learned before her; that it is one thing to win a throne and quite another to sit on one. Before she can hope to defeat the Others, Dany knows she must unite the broken realm behind her. Wolf and lion must hunt together, maester and greenseer work as one, all the blood feuds must be put aside, the bitter rivals and sworn enemies join hands. The Winds of Winter tells the story of Dany’s fight to save her new-won kingdom, of two desperate journeys beyond the known world in to the very hearts of ice and fire, and of the final climactic battle at Winterfell, with life itself in the balance.

[Shagwell Snow]

Quick question,let's say in the end r+l= j turns out to be true.Would the school of thought, who at this moment in time, that do not except r+l=j feel that grrm did a shitty job when it comes to foreshadowing and clues?

[Reposado]

i hadn't seen that last synopsis. the main part of that is crucial to the story and i think will not be changed.

in the second act, which likely ends at the end of book 6. dany ends up taking the throne and the wall comes. down.

with the counting of the LCs suspiciously heading to 1000, i'm guessing it comes down on the 999th LC. What does it mean for the watch once the wall is down? they are too few to really mean anything at that point and the others are moving south past them. based upon that synopsis and the low number of povs in the next book, i wonder if jon is out of the action for book 6. sam is gone so the only characters that are unlikely to be other-food at the wall are jon and sam.

of course this leads to jon being the 1,000th commander after the long night, weve talked about jon choosing to be a stark over a targ a lot but maybe the choice is really comes down to resaying his vows and reestablishing the watch.

this makes sense based on the presumably late addition of rickon to the stark family. clearly, he had no role in the story and even with the five year gap was going to be too young to do much. i feel fairly safe in saying that rickon was added to be a stark in winterfell at the series end as grrm had specific ends for the rest of the starks very early

[Reposado]

"Wolf and lion must hunt together, maester and greenseer work as one, all the blood feuds must be put aside, the bitter rivals and sworn enemies join hands. The Winds of Winter tells the story of Dany’s fight to save her new-won kingdom, of two desperate journeys beyond the known world in to the very hearts of ice and fire, and of the final climactic battle at Winterfell, with life itself in the balance."

So clearly, this is the stuff that may or may not happen:

Wolf and lion: there may not be any wolves or lions left at this point, but i would guess that this initially referred to jon and tyrion putting aside the love triangle that existed in the initial synopsis.

maester and greenseer: does this put a little doubt in our idea that the greenseers/oldgods/singers are with the others? it could easily see the role of the singers changing as he realized that the journeys of arya and bran needed to be more complex.

desperate journeys into the heart of ice and fire: who do we think he had planned to make these and are they still going to happen? i wouldn't be surprised if the the ice journey does happen and the fire journey does not. based on what we have been talking about re: bran, i'd say that this journey just got moved forward in the plot and the fire journey has been cancelled.

final climactic battle at winterfell: could still happen. i guess if there is one final battle this is the likely place, but it's hardly necessary. could be cahnged. could not even have been determined yet now.

[Balerion06]

Quick question,let's say in the end r+l= j turns out to be true.Would the school of thought, who at this moment in time, that do not except r+l=j feel that grrm did a shitty job when it comes to foreshadowing and clues?

Not particularly. While I would feel he could have done a better job of being subtle in some places, when it comes to plot twists and revelations, I'd rather an author err on giving too much information in the build-up than too little (which often makes the twist seem unplanned and pulled out of the author's rear end).

Then again, I'm not sure if R+L=J (if true) is even supposed to come as a big shocker when it's revealed. He's not even trying to hide the hints for it by the fifth book.

[Black Crow]

Quick question,let's say in the end r+l= j turns out to be true.Would the school of thought, who at this moment in time, that do not except r+l=j feel that grrm did a shitty job when it comes to foreshadowing and clues?

Not necessarily. The problem with the R+L=J theory is not that it is necessarily too obvious, but how it is interpreted. As you can see from the synopsis above the outcome doesn't appear to be envisaged as a big deal by GRRM. All that's mentioned is the removal of a barrier to getting inside Arya's knickers. If that does turn out to be the case then the mystery is no big deal. Instead there's a tendency outside of this particular thread to get excited at the prospect of R+L=Jon Targaryen First of His Name etc etc, and thereby taking the story in strange and interesting directions not contemplated in the synopsis.

[Black Crow]

i hadn't seen that last synopsis. the main part of that is crucial to the story and i think will not be changed.

in the second act, which likely ends at the end of book 6. dany ends up taking the throne and the wall comes. down.

with the counting of the LCs suspiciously heading to 1000, i'm guessing it comes down on the 999th LC. What does it mean for the watch once the wall is down? they are too few to really mean anything at that point and the others are moving south past them. based upon that synopsis and the low number of povs in the next book, i wonder if jon is out of the action for book 6. sam is gone so the only characters that are unlikely to be other-food at the wall are jon and sam.

of course this leads to jon being the 1,000th commander after the long night, weve talked about jon choosing to be a stark over a targ a lot but maybe the choice is really comes down to resaying his vows and reestablishing the watch.

this makes sense based on the presumably late addition of rickon to the stark family. clearly, he had no role in the story and even with the five year gap was going to be too young to do much. i feel fairly safe in saying that rickon was added to be a stark in winterfell at the series end as grrm had specific ends for the rest of the starks very early

The second part of the synopsis was apparently redrafted into its present form to serve as a blurb for what was then to be the third volume of the projected trilogy. A lot has been added and been changed since then obviously enough but I see no reason for GRRM to be diverging significantly from the core elements of the story; namely that Danaerys will take the throne and that she will have to rally the forces of men after the fall of the Wall.

[Black Crow]

"Wolf and lion must hunt together, maester and greenseer work as one, all the blood feuds must be put aside, the bitter rivals and sworn enemies join hands. The Winds of Winter tells the story of Dany’s fight to save her new-won kingdom, of two desperate journeys beyond the known world in to the very hearts of ice and fire, and of the final climactic battle at Winterfell, with life itself in the balance."

So clearly, this is the stuff that may or may not happen:

Wolf and lion: there may not be any wolves or lions left at this point, but i would guess that this initially referred to jon and tyrion putting aside the love triangle that existed in the initial synopsis.

maester and greenseer: does this put a little doubt in our idea that the greenseers/oldgods/singers are with the others? it could easily see the role of the singers changing as he realized that the journeys of arya and bran needed to be more complex.

desperate journeys into the heart of ice and fire: who do we think he had planned to make these and are they still going to happen? i wouldn't be surprised if the the ice journey does happen and the fire journey does not. based on what we have been talking about re: bran, i'd say that this journey just got moved forward in the plot and the fire journey has been cancelled.

final climactic battle at winterfell: could still happen. i guess if there is one final battle this is the likely place, but it's hardly necessary. could be cahnged. could not even have been determined yet now.

As to the Wolf and the Lion; Tyrion and Jon have a certain friendship in the book as written. It could refer to them but given Jaime Lannister's redemption arc I'd be more inclined to see him as the Lion in question. Jon; probably, but if he is the Wolf then that once again points to him as the son of Winterfell whom Maester Luwin proclaimed him to be rather than Jon Targaryen.

Maester and Greenseer may likewise be a single pairing. We have Sam of course as the most likely candidate for the first, but what we've discussed of late is that the greenseer is Bran himself, realising he's been sold a pup by the three-fingered tree-huggers and turning against them.

As to the desperate journeys we've similarly discussed that the journey to the heart of ice may already have happened as Bran's journey into the Heart of Darkness in search of Kurtz. As to fire, we don't know but it could be something equally metaphorical in not necessarily being a geographical reference

[LordImp]

I have long wondered if their is something magical about the Tullys. They have connection to the Rivers and the trident , when they die they go to the Watery halls where they helds eternal court and has fish as they servants. And Hoster described his disease as crabs pinching. We know about the old man of the river and Crabb king who fights for control over underwater life.

Old man of the river - Hoster Tully

Crabb King- Disease

Im thinking that the Tullys once was water wizards as the Rhoynars , but this abilities is now lost and forgotten. And the watery hall stuff is similar to the Drowned god.

What does all this mean?

[Reposado]

Not particularly. While I would feel he could have done a better job of being subtle in some places, when it comes to plot twists and revelations, I'd rather an author err on giving too much information in the build-up than too little (which often makes the twist seem unplanned and pulled out of the author's rear end).

Then again, I'm not sure if R+L=J (if true) is even supposed to come as a big shocker when it's revealed. He's not even trying to hide the hints for it by the fifth book.

i think it is over discussed that grrm subverts tropes. i mean, he does to a degree, but this is not abercrombie.

i think the r+l=j hints have been just overdone enough so that it can be subverted by jon being that secret targ but not the figure of legend, ptwp, etc(that is still dany)

[Reposado]

As to the Wolf and the Lion; Tyrion and Jon have a certain friendship in the book as written. It could refer to them but given Jaime Lannister's redemption arc I'd be more inclined to see him as the Lion in question. Jon; probably, but if he is the Wolf then that once again points to him as the son of Winterfell whom Maester Luwin proclaimed him to be rather than Jon Targaryen.

Maester and Greenseer may likewise be a single pairing. We have Sam of course as the most likely candidate for the first, but what we've discussed of late is that the greenseer is Bran himself, realising he's been sold a pup by the three-fingered tree-huggers and turning against them.

As to the desperate journeys we've similarly discussed that the journey to the heart of ice may already have happened as Bran's journey into the Heart of Darkness in search of Kurtz. As to fire, we don't know but it could be something equally metaphorical in not necessarily being a geographical reference

when was that written? if this was not long after the original synopsis, then i take it to mean that jon and tyrion were friends then rivals over arya then friends again. i could still see them coming back together in the end even though the love triangle has been written out. if any lion and wolf are to run together, it is likely those two. who would jaime run with? and if we are looking at this as the original synopsis , i'm fairly certain that jaime would die during book two. i think it is very well likely that he still dies before the final conflict. i mean his arc is one of redemption and he's really been redeemed. he doesn't really have a place in the final conflict.

but yeah. i just kinda think that the journey to the heart of fire is no longer going to happen, either geographically or internally. i just dont see it as being needed

[Black Crow]

but yeah. i just kinda think that the journey to the heart of fire is no longer going to happen, either geographically or internally. i just dont see it as being needed

I think there are a couple of possibilities. We may be wrong about Bran undertaking the journey and it might literally be a case of Jon going north into the snow because there's that conversation with Tyrion on the Wall where he speaks of one day going with Ghost to find his Uncle Benjen, which might be mirrored by Tyrion going to Valyria to look for his Uncle Gerion. Its tempting and Valyria is convenient sityated on his way home to Westeros but I have a recollection of an SSM in which it was said that we may see Valyria as it was but not as it is. If so then I'd be inclined to stick with Bran for the first journey and learning through Kurtz what's really going on beyond the Wall and if so then it might be Danaerys mirroring him by realising that her dragons are not as cuddly as she once thought that they were and that she really needs to do something about them - permanently.

[Black Crow]

i think it is over discussed that grrm subverts tropes. i mean, he does to a degree, but this is not abercrombie.

i think the r+l=j hints have been just overdone enough so that it can be subverted by jon being that secret targ but not the figure of legend, ptwp, etc(that is still dany)

I think that's the point I was making. His father may well turn out to be Rhaegar but he's going to shrug it off as no big deal. Its his mother who has always fascinated him. His father was Lord Eddard Stark and he has [or will have] a mouldy parchment signed by Rob Stark proclaiming him Lord Eddard's lawful son and therefore not Jon Targaryen but Jon Stark, a true-born son of Winterfell. As I said, whatever the actual outcome GRRM certainly wasn't treating the reveal as a big deal in that synopsis.

[Reposado]

I think there are a couple of possibilities. We may be wrong about Bran undertaking the journey and it might literally be a case of Jon going north into the snow because there's that conversation with Tyrion on the Wall where he speaks of one day going with Ghost to find his Uncle Benjen, which might be mirrored by Tyrion going to Valyria to look for his Uncle Gerion. Its tempting and Valyria is convenient sityated on his way home to Westeros but I have a recollection of an SSM in which it was said that we may see Valyria as it was but not as it is. If so then I'd be inclined to stick with Bran for the first journey and learning through Kurtz what's really going on beyond the Wall and if so then it might be Danaerys mirroring him by realising that her dragons are not as cuddly as she once thought that they were and that she really needs to do something about them - permanently.

yeah there's that quote. (not seeing valyria) as well as the not going east of mereen quote. regardless of the heart of fire being valyria or asshai, we arent going to see that.

jon going north could still be though. to me, this would mean the others going south past him while he was still out of the picture and then jon and ghost going north

[Black Crow]

GRRM has certainly said that we're going to see something of the Land of Always Winter in the next two books, which would be consistent with the promise to go looking for Benjen Stark, but its always possible that we're right about Bran going into the heart of darkness and learning the truth of what's going on while Jon goes north on a quite different quest for his uncle

[Lord Wraith]

First Spear of Dorne, on 08 Jul 2015 - 12:58 AM, said:

Working on a theory that Lewyn Martell's paramour was actually Olenna Redwynne. Also that Marwyn the Mage is their secret bastard sent to the Citadel to hide his identity. I am still working on the full theory but this is part of the TLDR section.

Brief version L + O = M

1. LeWYN is a MARtell, hence Mar+wyn = Marwyn. Many historical Martells also have names starting with the letter M. Also Olenna’s first born son is named Mace. Also Luwin is the first Maester introduced in ASOIAF.

2. Marwyn’s two most trusted students are Leo Tyrell and a Sarella Sand daughter of Oberyn Martell. Also Pate who is likely Jaquen the faceless man. 2/3 his students are lying about their identity.

3. Lewyn is known to have a paramour but this has been kept a closely guarded secret, likely meaning someone of high birth. It isn’t common knowledge and isn’t recorded in the White Book of the Kingsguard. There is no mention of a bastard which would be an even more closely guarded secret.

4. Olenna is betrothed to Daeron Targ at 9. It is broken off when she is 18 and she doesn’t have Mace till she is 28. That is a lot of time for an affair. She claims that Luthor wasn’t unskilled in bed meaning that she might have had lovers before Luthor.

5. Marwyn bears shares several physical characteristics with Mace Tyrell, Olenna’s first born.

6. Marwyn is often associated with the letter M: Maester, Mage, Mastiff, Magic, Mirri Maz Dur etc.

7. Several associations in the novels point to him being their son (see spoilers)

8. Several hints that Marwyn is working with the Martells. Sarella, Oberyn’s time at the Citadel, and the fact that Doran doesn’t trust Maesters.

9. The Strangler poison was used by Olenna to kill Joffrey. The secrets of this poison are known to the Maesters. Marwyn would have been easily able to get the poison. Maester Cressen attempted to kill Melisandre with the same poison.

I know its tinfoil but the full version will go far more indepth, tell me what you think.

it's plausible. but one thing i like to think about when considering secret parenteges is: what would that add to the story? in this case i don't see much. but let's look at a few things

3. if a kingsguard had a bastard he would keep it quiet regardless of who the mother was. it would certainly not be mentioned in the white book. it is directly against their vows. i'd scrap this one.

4. the time line for the affair is 237 to 246. that would put marywn at the age range of 54-63. this seems reasonable with his descriptions. but barristan did not join the kingsguard until 260. we also know that lewyn could not have joined the kingsguard until 262 as he was appointed by aerys. so the paramour that barristan knew about is someone else. that doesn't mean that lewyn couldn't have an affair before joining the kingsguard and then a paramour after though. we have no idea how old lewyn was when he joined the kingsguard. or how old he was

6 grrm tends to give people alliterative nicknames, so not sure how this matters too much

8. what are the hints that marywn is working with the martells? which martells? the martells don't even seem to be working together. you must mean doran, but marywn doesn't seem to be in the loop about doran's actions

9. tons of ways for olenna to get the strangler without going all the way to oldtown

My replies to the above.

3. "Prince Lewyn? That tale Ser Arys had not heard. It shocked him. Terrence Toyne's treason and the deceits of Lucamore the Lusty were recorded in the White Book, but there was no hint of a woman on Prince Lewyn's page."

My point is being that no one outside of the Kingsguard, Martell family and presumably Olenna's inner circle seem to be aware that Lewyn had a paramour.

4. We know Lewyn was a member of Aerys kingsguard I can't find any evident that he was appointed by Aerys or before. The ages is a problem since the closest member of Lewyns family we know of to have a confirmed birth is Doran.

8. Doran obviously and likely Oberyn given his time at the Citadel. The biggest point that I have is this: How did Doran know that Dany was in Slavers Bay when he sent Quentyn? The quest started before news of Dany's conquest of Slavers Bay,

9. She wouldn't have had to go to Oldtown personally and who else? The Faceless Men? Alchemists of Lys? Does she have a maester she trusts to procure it? Of course Littlefinger could have gotten in but it is something to consider not one of my strongest point.

[Reposado]

First Spear of Dorne, on 08 Jul 2015 - 12:58 AM, said:

it's plausible. but one thing i like to think about when considering secret parenteges is: what would that add to the story? in this case i don't see much. but let's look at a few things

3. if a kingsguard had a bastard he would keep it quiet regardless of who the mother was. it would certainly not be mentioned in the white book. it is directly against their vows. i'd scrap this one.

4. the time line for the affair is 237 to 246. that would put marywn at the age range of 54-63. this seems reasonable with his descriptions. but barristan did not join the kingsguard until 260. we also know that lewyn could not have joined the kingsguard until 262 as he was appointed by aerys. so the paramour that barristan knew about is someone else. that doesn't mean that lewyn couldn't have an affair before joining the kingsguard and then a paramour after though. we have no idea how old lewyn was when he joined the kingsguard. or how old he was

6 grrm tends to give people alliterative nicknames, so not sure how this matters too much

8. what are the hints that marywn is working with the martells? which martells? the martells don't even seem to be working together. you must mean doran, but marywn doesn't seem to be in the loop about doran's actions

9. tons of ways for olenna to get the strangler without going all the way to oldtown

My replies to the above.

3. "Prince Lewyn? That tale Ser Arys had not heard. It shocked him. Terrence Toyne's treason and the deceits of Lucamore the Lusty were recorded in the White Book, but there was no hint of a woman on Prince Lewyn's page."

My point is being that no one outside of the Kingsguard, Martell family and presumably Olenna's inner circle seem to be aware that Lewyn had a paramour.

4. We know Lewyn was a member of Aerys kingsguard I can't find any evident that he was appointed by Aerys or before. The ages is a problem since the closest member of Lewyns family we know of to have a confirmed birth is Doran.

8. Doran obviously and likely Oberyn given his time at the Citadel. The biggest point that I have is this: How did Doran know that Dany was in Slavers Bay when he sent Quentyn? The quest started before news of Dany's conquest of Slavers Bay,

9. She wouldn't have had to go to Oldtown personally and who else? The Faceless Men? Alchemists of Lys? Does she have a maester she trusts to procure it? Of course Littlefinger could have gotten in but it is something to consider not one of my strongest point.

3. right but noone would have since kingsguard werent supposed to have paramours. and olennas circle worul have no knowledge eithere since olenna was a married woman before lewyn joined the kingsguard

8 how did doran know? not through marwyn because he clearly did not know till well after doran based on the text

[wolfmaid7]

"Wolf and lion must hunt together, maester and greenseer work as one, all the blood feuds must be put aside, the bitter rivals and sworn enemies join hands. The Winds of Winter tells the story of Dany’s fight to save her new-won kingdom, of two desperate journeys beyond the known world in to the very hearts of ice and fire, and of the final climactic battle at Winterfell, with life itself in the balance."

So clearly, this is the stuff that may or may not happen:

Wolf and lion: there may not be any wolves or lions left at this point, but i would guess that this initially referred to jon and tyrion putting aside the love triangle that existed in the initial synopsis.

maester and greenseer: does this put a little doubt in our idea that the greenseers/oldgods/singers are with the others? it could easily see the role of the singers changing as he realized that the journeys of arya and bran needed to be more complex.

desperate journeys into the heart of ice and fire: who do we think he had planned to make these and are they still going to happen? i wouldn't be surprised if the the ice journey does happen and the fire journey does not. based on what we have been talking about re: bran, i'd say that this journey just got moved forward in the plot and the fire journey has been cancelled.

final climactic battle at winterfell: could still happen. i guess if there is one final battle this is the likely place, but it's hardly necessary. could be cahnged. could not even have been determined yet now.

If when looking over the text elements of this can still be found then some part of the synopsis remains.In past Heresies way before the synopsis was released some of us postulated and still believe Jon and Bran will be at odds if for a while because the mythical theme of who they represent seem to point that way.That element in the synopsis is still present in the series.And like BC points out Greenseer and Maester working together,Lion and wolf hunting together is already being set up with (a) Sam going to the Citadel and (b) the pre-existing friendship with Jon and Tyrion.

I am still of the opinion based on what i see that Greenseers or powers of that nature are behind the wws and the wights and the Others will turn out to be no other than greenseers.

As to the Wolf and the Lion; Tyrion and Jon have a certain friendship in the book as written. It could refer to them but given Jaime Lannister's redemption arc I'd be more inclined to see him as the Lion in question. Jon; probably, but if he is the Wolf then that once again points to him as the son of Winterfell whom Maester Luwin proclaimed him to be rather than Jon Targaryen.

Maester and Greenseer may likewise be a single pairing. We have Sam of course as the most likely candidate for the first, but what we've discussed of late is that the greenseer is Bran himself, realising he's been sold a pup by the three-fingered tree-huggers and turning against them.

As to the desperate journeys we've similarly discussed that the journey to the heart of ice may already have happened as Bran's journey into the Heart of Darkness in search of Kurtz. As to fire, we don't know but it could be something equally metaphorical in not necessarily being a geographical reference

I could see this happening with Dany as players try to steer her in a certain direction.Her journey in becoming a Dragon parallels Bran and i think she like him will have the choice to make as to if their going to players or puppets.

I think there are a couple of possibilities. We may be wrong about Bran undertaking the journey and it might literally be a case of Jon going north into the snow because there's that conversation with Tyrion on the Wall where he speaks of one day going with Ghost to find his Uncle Benjen, which might be mirrored by Tyrion going to Valyria to look for his Uncle Gerion. Its tempting and Valyria is convenient sityated on his way home to Westeros but I have a recollection of an SSM in which it was said that we may see Valyria as it was but not as it is. If so then I'd be inclined to stick with Bran for the first journey and learning through Kurtz what's really going on beyond the Wall and if so then it might be Danaerys mirroring him by realising that her dragons are not as cuddly as she once thought that they were and that she really needs to do something about them - permanently.

I think he has,i think they all will.What they look like at the end of their respective journeys..Only their choice will tell.

[WhitewolfStark]

I have long wondered if their is something magical about the Tullys. They have connection to the Rivers and the trident , when they die they go to the Watery halls where they helds eternal court and has fish as they servants. And Hoster described his disease as crabs pinching. We know about the old man of the river and Crabb king who fights for control over underwater life.

Old man of the river - Hoster Tully

Crabb King- Disease

Im thinking that the Tullys once was water wizards as the Rhoynars , but this abilities is now lost and forgotten. And the watery hall stuff is similar to the Drowned god.

What does all this mean?

Tullys don't show up until after the Andals arrive and are fighting initially on the side of the First Men, or at least on the side of one of the last Mudds, Tristifer IV (wasn't he the same guy who has that sepulcher at Oldstones in the middle of the field? Now I'm starting to get more meaning behind that scene... you'll get what I mean if you see my crackpot below) who fought with him in every battle until the last one where he died.

From that I got the impression they either were Andal sellswords who fought for the Mudds for coin, or they were First Men nobodys who profited off of the death of the Mudds--awfully fishy that the first Tully, Edmure Tully, is knighted in the aftermath of turning sides. Even odder when you consider that his son Axel got the lands to build Riverrun from the Vances not too long thereafter.

My crackpot theory is that the Tullys are a bastard branch of the Mudds (hence why they can claim to have the blood of kings of old), which would make Cat's statements about bastards turning on their kin even more ironic--as that would be the act her house is founded upon. But that's crackpot. :drunk:

The overall impression I got from TWOIAF is that what the Freys did to the Tullys, what the Tullys have been doing to their overlords for centuries, which makes the Red Wedding rather ironic. Not the specifics of the Red Wedding, for sure, but switching sides after fighting loyally for a long while so that they can profit from it? That I see is the history of House Tully from generation down to generation, and makes Lord Walder's comments all the more potent, because it is the unvarnished truth. The Tullys had forgotten the messy beginnings of their house and dressed themselves up in finery and piousness, by the time we meet them, and they forgot just how they had gotten power, and they lost their power just as their ancestors had gained it.

That's at least, my interpretation, given the text and TWOIAF.