Samwell Tarly in The Winds of Winter

[ChillyPolly]

20 minutes ago, RumHam said:

Oh, I get it now. I just couldn't see when he could possibly die on screen other than the epilogue. 

But what does the alchemist have to gain by pretending to be Samwell? 

I'm honestly not sure, but I imagine Fake Pate is starting to wear out his usefulness.  The immediate motive for the assassination is to silence Sam, prevent him from talking to the Archmaesters, and of course to sieze Aemon's corpse, Aemon's magic books, and Gilly's kingsblood magic sacrificial baby.

Probably he'll do what Faceless Men do ... get close to someone we know at try to take them out.  Dany or Jon Snow, maybe?  Marwyn says he is heading to Dany, and his pals are probably coming too.

[LCMormont_1529]

5 hours ago, ChillyPolly said:

No.  I think Samwell died offscreen shortly after the close of FEAST.  For those able to take a hint, his last chapter WAS his death chapter.  The death of Pate foreshadows his fate.  The Alchemist will now appear as Sam, just as he once appeared as Pate.

I don't even understand the questions you are asking.

My mind is blown...

Interesting theory but why would a FM take Sam's face? Because he/she needs a new one (i.e. Pate is wearing out his welcome)? Or is there an ulterior motive? Do we know for certain that everyone is aware that The Alchemist/Pate is FM and therefore needs to take a new face?

I'll have to re-read Sam's last chapter, but if I remember correctly, that would be one of the lamest death chapters in the series. Plus, wasn't his last chapter from his POV? I can't recall a character that "died" in their own POV (Cat didn't "die" as she was re-born at the end of ASoS and Jon is still questionable). If Sam were to die, why do it in Oldtown? Why not have him "fall" off the wall? Interested to hear some more on this one.

[ChillyPolly]

5 hours ago, LCMormont_1529 said:

Interesting theory but why would a FM take Sam's face?

I honestly don't know.  But since nobody else has any idea what the FM is up to, that does not worry me none.  The FM are part of the story, and they are up to something.

Anyhow, it's been prophesied:  A man without a face (an FM?) on a rickety bridge (the bridge to the Isle of Ravens?) wearing a drowned crow (the glamour of a murdered Sam?).  (I know everyone thinks this refers to Balon).

Because he/she needs a new one (i.e. Pate is wearing out his welcome)? Or is there an ulterior motive? Do we know for certain that everyone is aware that The Alchemist/Pate is FM and therefore needs to take a new face?

Everyone?  No.  But Marwyn and Alleras obviously know who he is, presumably because they are part of his plot.  

It seems likely that there are limits to the usefulness of Fake Pate's likeness, and I suspect they have already been achieved.

And again, I don't know what he plans to use Sam for.  But he's all set up for it.  Samwell totally spilled his guts to the FM's buddy Alleras, so the FM probably has enough background data for an effective impersonation.

I'll have to re-read Sam's last chapter, but if I remember correctly, that would be one of the lamest death chapters in the series.

Sure, if "lame" means "not super obvious".

Plus, wasn't his last chapter from his POV? I can't recall a character that "died" in their own POV (Cat didn't "die" as she was re-born at the end of ASoS and Jon is still questionable).

Absent an afterlife perspective, it is hard to die in one's point of view.  When I was very young, I had a dream where I got shot by an arrow, and was lying in the grass with my talons in the air, consciously thinking to myself "Oh bother, I'm dead, my mom will be so mad".  Most people would not think that makes sense in the ordinary course of things.

Cat DID die as far as I am concerned.  Lady Stoneheart is a different character, not a person, but a monster; which is why there is no longer Cat POV.  So I see the situations as roughly analogous - a character who dies and gets replaced by a monster.

There is also Brienne, who got hanged ... and whose revenant was last seen trying to lure Jaime to his death.   Is she really still alive?

There is also Jaime, who was last seen being lured to his death by the revenant of a woman who swore a dying oath to slay him.  Is he still alive?  Will he be the same person when he returns?

 

[Fitzochris01]

Interesting theories there, and answers my confusion on another thread with regards to Sam being lured to his death.

I do still believe the prophecy was referring to Balon, but that doesn't mean your theory about Sam isn't so.

[LCMormont_1529]

17 hours ago, ChillyPolly said:

I honestly don't know.  But since nobody else has any idea what the FM is up to, that does not worry me none.  The FM are part of the story, and they are up to something.

Totally agree. There is a plot by the FM and (off topic), I hope Arya figures it out and that's what drives her back to being Arya instead of "no one."

Anyhow, it's been prophesied:  A man without a face (an FM?) on a rickety bridge (the bridge to the Isle of Ravens?) wearing a drowned crow (the glamour of a murdered Sam?).  (I know everyone thinks this refers to Balon).

The Ghost of High Heart prophecy. I can see how it could be interpreted as Sam, the only part of the prophecy that makes me question it being Sam is that seaweed is specifically mentioned which makes me lean towards Balon. But right when you think you know what a prophecy means, it comes back to bite you in the ass.

 

 

Everyone?  No.  But Marwyn and Alleras obviously know who he is, presumably because they are part of his plot.  

It seems likely that there are limits to the usefulness of Fake Pate's likeness, and I suspect they have already been achieved.

And again, I don't know what he plans to use Sam for.  But he's all set up for it.  Samwell totally spilled his guts to the FM's buddy Alleras, so the FM probably has enough background data for an effective impersonation.

What textual evidence supports that Marwyn and Alleras know he is a FM? I know Alleras was with Pate during the Prologue, which shows that Pate and Alleras are pals (no denying that), but I don't recall anything else that really stood out and made me think "they know."

Also, I always thought the Prologue was a clue as to how Arya would make her first kill - killing the insurance salesman by slicing his bag open and replacing one of his coins with a poisoned one.

 

Sure, if "lame" means "not super obvious".

My "lame" meant most of our POV characters have gotten exciting/gruesome deaths. Eddard was beheaded, all of the Prologue/Epilogue characters are out there (assassination by Varys, death by an Other in AGoT, death by a FM in AFfC, a middle finger to Maester Cressen by Mel in a ACoK, etc.), Jon was assassinated, Cat had her throat slit. So in comparison to all other POVs it would be a "lame" death. So, what I meant was that an off-page death would be a let down after all of the high profile deaths that GRRM has written.

 

Absent an afterlife perspective, it is hard to die in one's point of view.  When I was very young, I had a dream where I got shot by an arrow, and was lying in the grass with my talons in the air, consciously thinking to myself "Oh bother, I'm dead, my mom will be so mad".  Most people would not think that makes sense in the ordinary course of things.

Good point, it is hard to die in one's own point of view. My point was our main POV death's have always been told from a 3rd party vs. their own, which could be seen as evidence that Sam didn't die.

Cat DID die as far as I am concerned.  Lady Stoneheart is a different character, not a person, but a monster; which is why there is no longer Cat POV.  So I see the situations as roughly analogous - a character who dies and gets replaced by a monster.

I don't disagree, she is only a shadow of her past self.

There is also Brienne, who got hanged ... and whose revenant was last seen trying to lure Jaime to his death.   Is she really still alive?

There is also Jaime, who was last seen being lured to his death by the revenant of a woman who swore a dying oath to slay him.  Is he still alive?  Will he be the same person when he returns?

My point about dying in one's own POV comes into play here. We have no confirmation that she is dead, that would have to come from a 3rd party. Non Prologue/Epilogue deaths are all confirmed by another POV: Eddard's death was confirmed by Arya (and Sansa later on), Cat by the Frey in the Epilogue of ASoS (in defense of your point), Arys Oakheart by Arianne Martell, & Quentyn Martell by Barristan Selmy.

 

I need to re-read Sam's Feast chapters with your theory in mind so that I can pick out any subtleties that might be present. Haven't done that yet and probably won't for awhile. I just started a AGoT re-read.

[ChillyPolly]

2 hours ago, LCMormont_1529 said:

 I can see how it could be interpreted as Sam, the only part of the prophecy that makes me question it being Sam is that seaweed is specifically mentioned which makes me lean towards Balon.

The Isle of Ravens is an island in a river, but the river leads to the sea.  Oldtown is pretty much at the mouth of the Honeywine, where it meets the sea.

 

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I know Alleras was with Pate during the Prologue, which shows that Pate and Alleras are pals (no denying that), but I don't recall anything else that really stood out and made me think "they know."

 

 

Fake Pate was present, when Marwyn was telling Samwell to keep his story secret from the Maesters of the Citadel.  Marwyn would not have this conversation in front of Real Pate.

 

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My point about dying in one's own POV comes into play here. We have no confirmation that she is dead, that would have to come from a 3rd party.

 

 

In a story filled with cliffhangers and fake-out deaths, there is always room for uncertainty and reversals of what we thought we knew.  But in my mind I am imagining a bunch of ASOIAF fans reading A TALE OF TWO CITIES, and complaining that Dickens did not finish the story, because they want to find out what happened to Sydney Carton and his new girlfriend. 

Reversals are always possible in a continuing story.  But it is still possible to have enough evidence to suppose that a character is probably dead.

[LCMormont_1529]

On 1/27/2016 at 5:40 PM, ChillyPolly said:

The Isle of Ravens is an island in a river, but the river leads to the sea.  Oldtown is pretty much at the mouth of the Honeywine, where it meets the sea.

 

 

Fake Pate was present, when Marwyn was telling Samwell to keep his story secret from the Maesters of the Citadel.  Marwyn would not have this conversation in front of Real Pate.

 

 

In a story filled with cliffhangers and fake-out deaths, there is always room for uncertainty and reversals of what we thought we knew.  But in my mind I am imagining a bunch of ASOIAF fans reading A TALE OF TWO CITIES, and complaining that Dickens did not finish the story, because they want to find out what happened to Sydney Carton and his new girlfriend. 

Reversals are always possible in a continuing story.  But it is still possible to have enough evidence to suppose that a character is probably dead.

Pate was a bumbling idiot, so the fact that Marwyn allowed him to stick around when Sam told the story is a little suspect now that I think about it, but, I think the Isle of Ravens connection to seaweed is a bit of a stretch.

The only reason I'm questioning Sam's death (and I'm going to pay closer attention on my next re-read) is because he either HAS a role or HAD a role, and I'm not sure which. I think it's safe to say that Sam is the "helper" on Jon's Hero's Journey. The question I pose to myself: was Sam's role as helper to get Jon elected as Lord Commander (meaning his role is over and is free to die) or is Sam's role as helper to educate Jon (or whatever he becomes post-death) on how to defeat The Others? If the latter, there is still information that he needs to get across/back to Jon.

Dickens didn't have people come back from the dead in his story or purposely fake you out with a character's death just to bring them back to life like Martin has done, so it's not exactly apples to apples. I get your point though. It's a bit like Shutter Island (the book) where the ending is much more ambiguous then the movie, is he a cop or a patient?

[ChillyPolly]

14 hours ago, LCMormont_1529 said:

Dickens didn't have people come back from the dead in his story or purposely fake you out with a character's death just to bring them back to life like Martin has done, so it's not exactly apples to apples.

I have not read a lot of Dickens, so I'm not sure how true that is.  But in Tale of Two Cities, while he never seriously fakes out the reader, there are no less than 3 "fake deaths" in a broader sense.  First a 17 year old orphan who thought her dad died before she was born discovers her dad is still alive, having festered in a dungeon for 18 years.  Then a spy of the Old Bailey, dead and buried in England (we saw his funeral), turns up alive in France.  Finally, Charles Darnay, after a trial, gets his head chopped off before a crowd of people who are familiar with his appearance - but it's not really Charles Darnay.  

While the reader himself is never fooled in at least 2 of these situations, that is merely a matter of perspective.  Other people are fooled.

[SevasTra82]

On 2/2/2016 at 5:32 PM, LCMormont_1529 said:

Pate was a bumbling idiot, so the fact that Marwyn allowed him to stick around when Sam told the story is a little suspect now that I think about it, but, I think the Isle of Ravens connection to seaweed is a bit of a stretch.

The only reason I'm questioning Sam's death (and I'm going to pay closer attention on my next re-read) is because he either HAS a role or HAD a role, and I'm not sure which. I think it's safe to say that Sam is the "helper" on Jon's Hero's Journey. The question I pose to myself: was Sam's role as helper to get Jon elected as Lord Commander (meaning his role is over and is free to die) or is Sam's role as helper to educate Jon (or whatever he becomes post-death) on how to defeat The Others? If the latter, there is still information that he needs to get across/back to Jon.

I think Sam still has a role, and a major one at that.  There seems to be a lot happening at the Citadel, and Sam is the only "eyes" we have there in the entire series.  You have Jaqan, Marwyn, a glass candle, the mysteries of what the Citadel holds, the 4th Sand Snake....there is way too much information and plot threads at the Citadel for Sam to just simply "die".  Simply put, Sam is going to be ASOIAF's "info dump" character...we're going to learn most of the lands secrets through his POV in the coming books.  Not only that, GRRM spent a good amount of time fleshing out Sams backstory with his father, Horn Hill, Gilly and the baby etc...I find it hard to believe that was just "fluff" in the story that will serve no purpose.

Sam is more of a major character in ASOIAF's end game then people give him credit for.  He *was* Jon's lackey for most of the books, and if GRRM wanted him dead he could have easily kept him at The Wall to get stabbed alongside Jon.  But he didn't...that shows me there is a lot left for our dear Sam.  I think he not only survives the series, but becomes an important figure amongst the Maesters when it's all said and done.

[ChillyPolly]

3 hours ago, SevasTra82 said:

I think Sam still has a role, and a major one at that.  There seems to be a lot happening at the Citadel, and Sam is the only "eyes" we have there in the entire series.  You have Jaqan, Marwyn, a glass candle, the mysteries of what the Citadel holds, the 4th Sand Snake....there is way too much information and plot threads at the Citadel for Sam to just simply "die".  

Marwyn is leaving the Citadel on the Cinnamon Wind.  And he's probably taking Jaqen, Alleras and the glass candle with him, along with Aemon's magic Targaryen corpse, Aemon's magic books, and Gilly's blood-magic sacrificial baby.  Whatever occult nonsense he is up to, he is going to end up doing somewhere else.   We'll meet him in the POV of other characters.

He does not want Sam to come along, and he wants to make sure Sam does not talk.  Do the math.

 

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Simply put, Sam is going to be ASOIAF's "info dump" character...we're going to learn most of the lands secrets through his POV in the coming books.  

 

 

This only convinces me that Sam is expendable.  There are 1000 ways an imaginative author can arrange an info dump.  Sending a minor character to study at Hogwarts for seven years, while we share his adventures, just so he can discuss what he learned in school later with one of the main characters, is not an efficient way of achieving this.

[SevasTra82]

17 minutes ago, ChillyPolly said:

This only convinces me that Sam is expendable.  There are 1000 ways an imaginative author can arrange an info dump.  Sending a minor character to study at Hogwarts for seven years, while we share his adventures, just so he can discuss what he learned in school later with one of the main characters, is not an efficient way of achieving this.

 

GRRM has already written that the Citadel hold's many secrets, and that there are books there from the Age of Heroes that are locked away, and only exist there.  I think these are the texts that possibly hold the answer to many of the mysteries of Westeros, and that is what Sam, IMO, is going to uncover (hence the info-dump comment I made).

I don't think he's going to go through some 7 year, hogwarts learning that he will be handed down knowledge.  I think Jaqan is after the same thing, and somehow, the two of them will end up getting their hands on this book.

I don't see Jaqn leaving with Marwyn.  His story arc is very loose right now, but what threads *do* exist are with the Starks, much like Sam.  These two minor characters are going to end up tying some threads together, somehow someway.

[ChillyPolly]

29 minutes ago, SevasTra82 said:

GRRM has already written that the Citadel hold's many secrets, and that there are books there from the Age of Heroes that are locked away, and only exist there.  

Sure.  There are secrets hidden lots of places.  Such as Asshai and/or the crumbling scrolls in the basement of Castle Black or the lore of Melisandre or the secrets she sees in her flames, or in the Targ history books that Dany never read, or in the books Aemon brought from the wall, or in the letter King Rob wrote to Jon Snow.  The issue is what the reader needs to know.  And we don't necessarily need a Sam POV for the reader to learn what GRRM needs the reader to know.

[SevasTra82]

44 minutes ago, ChillyPolly said:

Sure.  There are secrets hidden lots of places.  Such as Asshai and/or the crumbling scrolls in the basement of Castle Black or the lore of Melisandre or the secrets she sees in her flames, or in the Targ history books that Dany never read, or in the books Aemon brought from the wall, or in the letter King Rob wrote to Jon Snow.  The issue is what the reader needs to know.  And we don't necessarily need a Sam POV for the reader to learn what GRRM needs the reader to know.

True, but the same can really be said about any POV, really.  GRRM can reveal anything about the series through whomever he chooses.  I just believe there is a significant point to GRRM bringing Sam all the way to the Citadel.  He could have easily had him knifed at the same time as Jon and gotten rid of his character if he so chose.  But he didn't, and there is a reason for it.  What that reason is, is anyone's guess. 

Maybe Sam will die when it's all said and done.  Who knows.  I admit I'm going more on a "feeling" then any textual evidence, per-say.  GRRM just seems to have a soft spot for characters like Sam (the fat kid who was always made fun of, called worthless by his family, etc)....I just don't see it in GRRM to kill off Sam.  Much like I don't think he'll kill off Hodor, Tyrion, or any other character that has some sort of disability (if you consider being fat a disability, that is).

I'd hate to see him kill Sam off though, because there is a lot of opportunities and arcs that can be done in the Citadel...would be upsetting to see.

[ChillyPolly]

8 hours ago, SevasTra82 said:

 I just believe there is a significant point to GRRM bringing Sam all the way to the Citadel.  

Sure.  One of those significant points might be the delivery of Mance's baby, Aemon's corpse, and Aemon's books of lore to a bunch of occult magicians, who will use them to "wake the stone dragon" or some similar sinister purpose.

Another of those significant points might be to set up Fake Sam the Faceless Man, whose impersonation of Sam is rendered imperfect by the fact that Sam, before he died, neglected, on Jon's orders, to reveal that he was a coward.

[SevasTra82]

9 hours ago, ChillyPolly said:

Sure.  One of those significant points might be the delivery of Mance's baby, Aemon's corpse, and Aemon's books of lore to a bunch of occult magicians, who will use them to "wake the stone dragon" or some similar sinister purpose.

Another of those significant points might be to set up Fake Sam the Faceless Man, whose impersonation of Sam is rendered imperfect by the fact that Sam, before he died, neglected, on Jon's orders, to reveal that he was a coward.

It also might be so he can find the secrets of the citadel 

I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on Sams value for now.