Darkstar is a Brightflame

[Lost Melnibonean]

4 minutes ago, DarkSister1001 said:

IF he his I wonder if he could be the Darkflame that Dany is warned against.  On the surface Darkflame seems to be Moroqqo since that's what the crew calls him.  But this is more fun.  Darkstar Brightflame = Darkflame. 

I don't think so, because of the pairing:

Kraken and dark flame (Victarion and Moqorro)

Lion and griffin (Tyrion and Jon Connington)

The sun's son and the mummer's dragon (Quentyn and Aegon)

[DarkSister1001]

1 hour ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

I don't think so, because of the pairing:

Kraken and dark flame (Victarion and Moqorro)

Lion and griffin (Tyrion and Jon Connington)

The sun's son and the mummer's dragon (Quentyn and Aegon)

Gotchya.  It just had me thinking out loud.

But it still leaves me with one nagging question.  If he is a trueborn Targaryen why would Doran bother with the marriage pact? 

[Lost Melnibonean]

17 hours ago, DarkSister1001 said:

Gotchya.  It just had me thinking out loud.

But it still leaves me with one nagging question.  If he is a trueborn Targaryen why would Doran bother with the marriage pact? 

Assuming that this offbeat theory is true for hypothesis-testing purposes, are you thinking that Doran would have looked to Gerold rather than Viserys if Gerold Dayne were Aerion's descendant? 

I don't see why. Gerold is not even the heir to Starfall. Doran wasn't even willing to support Viserys unless he found his own army, so he certainly wasn't going to go to bat for one of his own minor lords. 

[DarkSister1001]

14 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Assuming that this offbeat theory is true for hypothesis-testing purposes, are you thinking that Doran would have looked to Gerold rather than Viserys if Gerold Dayne were Aerion's descendant? 

I don't see why. Gerold is not even the heir to Starfall. Doran wasn't even willing to support Viserys unless he found his own army, so he certainly wasn't not going to go to bat for one of his own minor lords. 

Gotchya.  I'll certainly keep this in mind, it's plausible. 

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Brightflame is not a House, it was a nickname/alias in the same way that Breakspear was Baelor's alias/nickname.

Do you mean that Darkstar is a Targaryen? Which would also be untrue as we know he is a Dayne and the Head of his House. Is it possible you mean that his mother had Targaryen blood? Sure, might be true.

[Lost Melnibonean]

31 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

Brightflame is not a House, it was a nickname/alias in the same way that Breakspear was Baelor's alias/nickname.

Do you mean that Darkstar is a Targaryen? Which would also be untrue as we know he is a Dayne and the Head of his House. Is it possible you mean that his mother had Targaryen blood? Sure, might be true.

A rose by any other name would smell as sweet. 

Is Cersei a Lannister or a Baratheon? What about her princelings? If Sansa and Tyrion had a boy, would he be a Stark or a Lannister? In the absence of the War of the Five Kings, and if Edmure had fallen from his horse and died in a tourney, might Sansa have wed a river lord and ruled Riverrun as a Tully? 

[thelittledragonthatcould]

54 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

A rose by any other name would smell as sweet. 

Is Cersei a Lannister or a Baratheon? What about her princelings? If Sansa and Tyrion had a boy, would he be a Stark or a Lannister? In the absence of the War of the Five Kings, and if Edmure had fallen from his horse and died in a tourney, might Sansa have wed a river lord and ruled Riverrun as a Tully? 

eh?

I'm saying there is no such House as Brightflame.

Sure, he may well have Targaryen blood, along with many other nobles in Westeros, but he is a Dayne. He identifies as a Dayne and as a Dayne he is the Head of his House.

Brienne to has Targ blood but that does not make her a Targaryen. Just like Robb was not a Royce despite having Royce ancestry.

[Lost Melnibonean]

1 minute ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

eh?

I'm saying there is no such House as Brightflame.

Sure, he may well have Targaryen blood, along with many other nobles in Westeros, but he is a Dayne. He identifies as a Dayne and as a Dayne he is the Head of his House.

Brienne to has Targ blood but that does not make her a Targaryen. Just like Robb was not a Royce despite having Royce ancestry.

I know Brightflame is a nickname. Jaime confused it once with Brightfyre, I believe. Did you read the OP or just the thread title? The point of the OP is that if Gerold Dayne is the descendant of Aerion of House Targaryen called Brightflame, and Aerion's son Maegor, who was Maekar's rightful heir but passed over for the throne by his uncle Aegon the Unlikely, then Gerold would have a potential claim to the Targaryen throne. In the OP, I tried to put forth the best argument in favor of the proposition, and how it might fit into the plot. 

[Lost Melnibonean]

Quote

Ser Gerold stood behind her, half in starlight and half in shadow. 

The Queenmaker, Feast 21

Half Dayne (starlight) and half hidden (or at least obscured)? Or half Dayne (starlight) and half Targaryen shadow=dragon)? 

[Isobel Harper]

If Maegor's descendants are still alive (and not killed in the Tragedy of Summerhall), methinks they're  somewhere in the Vale.  Daenora's mother was an Arryn, and quite likely took the babe under her wing (pun only somewhat intended).

2 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

The Queenmaker, Feast 21

Half Dayne (starlight) and half hidden (or at least obscured)? Or half Dayne (starlight) and half Targaryen shadow=dragon)? 

While Maegor or his descendants might have married into House Dayne, I think Martin is quite literally describing a grey character.  (Although someone like LmL would day this is an allusion to a solar eclipse.)

[PrinceHenryris]

@OP

I think it's entirely plausible.  

I also think that Darkstar is Oberyn's son.

My guess is that Maegor was married to a Dayne.  Since the laws of Dorne favor female equality, Maegor and his wife were given a castle at High Hermitage.  They had issue.  

Years later, Oberyn and the Lady of High Hermitage produced Gerold.

Oberyn "never got around to killing" Darkstar.

 

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

On 10-7-2015 at 11:12 PM, Lost Melnibonean said:

Hey R_T,if youre reading this, why is the cyvasse heavy horse associated with Darkstar?

So I read this a little bit late, but am I still allowed answer?  

You know my theory on the colour-symbolism regarding the cyvasse pieces: black indicates a win, white indicates a loss. Since Doran is referred to a handling several of the onyx pieces, and Arianne sits down on the opposite side of the board, I would conclude that she is sitting on the side of the white (ivory) pieces, and thus, that the horse piece she touches while asking her question is a white one.

If so, it could be a number of things. Heavy horse is a class of calvary, with the primary role of engaging in direct combat with enemy forces. They lead the attack. Their intention is to penetrate through the enemy defences and attack into the enemies vulnerable rear areas. (as defined by wikipedia). So this could be a reference to Darkstar's attack on Myrcella, with the white colour symbolizing either the fact that Darkstar failed to kill her, or symbolizing the fault it had been from Arianne's POV to bring him with her in the first place. If this is a reference to a current event, however, I would guess that it symbolizes what Doran answers next, that Darkstar is beyond their reach. Should this be a reference to a future event, it might be a foreshadowing failure of the missiong of Hotah and Obara to capture Gerold, as referred to in the WOW Arianne I sample chapter. The piece is, after all, not simply associated with Gerold, but with capturing Gerold.

Spoiler

Only Ser Gerold Dayne had escaped unscathed.  Darkstar.  If Myrcella’s horse had not shied at the last instant, his longsword would have opened her from chest to waist instead just taking off her ear.  Dayne was her most grievous sin, the one that Arianne most regretted.  With one stroke of his sword, he had changed her botched plot into something foul and bloody.  If the gods were good, by now Obara Sand had treed him in his mountain fastness and put an end to him.
She said as much to Daemon Sand that first night, as they made camp.  "Be careful what you pray for, princess," he replied.  "Darkstar could put an end to Lady Obara just as easily."

Is Obara going to die during this mission? 

 

 

Personally, I think that the last interpretation has the most chance of being correct.

[Lost Melnibonean]

5 hours ago, Isobel Harper said:

While Maegor or his descendants might have married into House Dayne, I think Martin is quite literally describing a grey character.  (Although someone like LmL would day this is an allusion to a solar eclipse.)

Starlight is still pretty dark. 

[Lost Melnibonean]

4 hours ago, PrinceHenryris said:

@OP

I think it's entirely plausible.  

I also think that Darkstar is Oberyn's son.

My guess is that Maegor was married to a Dayne.  Since the laws of Dorne favor female equality, Maegor and his wife were given a castle at High Hermitage.  They had issue.  

Years later, Oberyn and the Lady of High Hermitage produced Gerold.

Oberyn "never got around to killing" Darkstar.

 

If the author had wanted us to suspect Oberyn was Darkstar's papito, Gerold would have a widow's peak, no?

[Quellon]

Darkstar is an awesome character. Imagine what would happen if he and Euron were to become allies...omg!

[Isobel Harper]

On 5/21/2016 at 0:45 PM, Lost Melnibonean said:

I know Brightflame is a nickname. Jaime confused it once with Brightfyre, I believe. Did you read the OP or just the thread title? The point of the OP is that if Gerold Dayne is the descendant of Aerion of House Targaryen called Brightflame, and Aerion's son Maegor, who was Maekar's rightful heir but passed over for the throne by his uncle Aegon the Unlikely, then Gerold would have a potential claim to the Targaryen throne. In the OP, I tried to put forth the best argument in favor of the proposition, and how it might fit into the plot. 

If Darkstar is a descendant of little Maegor, it would be a daughter or granddaughter who married into House Dayne.  Otherwise, Darkstar WOULD be a Targaryen.  Now, female claimants have been looked over before...  but with Daenerys arriving at some point in Westeros, some might be willing to reconsider this tradition.  And if Darkstar IS related to House Targaryen via the female line, he could very well side with Daenerys over Aegon.  At first anyway. 

[Vaedys Targaryen]

You've really given me something to think about.

You also mentioned that Gerold appears to be a rather bitter person, in that he drinks unsweetened lemonwater. If you look at it from the Iron Throne succession, you can begin to see why:

Maegor was skipped in the line of succession because of his name and because he was just simply a baby, but the Iron Throne was his by rights. Now, can you imagine adult Maegor, being wherever, having a greater claim to the throne than his uncle and cousins, but he can't have it because he is named after a very bad king and was only a baby at the time of the Great Council, which would make him unable to rule. Logically, he would be pissed and feel that it was a great injustice towards him and he might just pass that anger and bitterness towards his cousins on to his children. If Darkstar is a descendant of Maegor, that would mean that not only does he have a claim to the Iron Throne, but his claim would actually be better than Dany's and Aegon's (if he is Rhaegar's son). That could explain why he is bitter.

[Notlad]

On 12/1/2016 at 3:44 AM, PrinceHenryris said:

@OP

I think it's entirely plausible.  

I also think that Darkstar is Oberyn's son.

My guess is that Maegor was married to a Dayne.  Since the laws of Dorne favor female equality, Maegor and his wife were given a castle at High Hermitage.  They had issue.  

Years later, Oberyn and the Lady of High Hermitage produced Gerold.

Oberyn "never got around to killing" Darkstar.

 

To be honest I'm a little lost on this thread, but I was wondering why Oberyn would want to kill Gerold "Darkstar" Dayne?

[SFDanny]

On 7/10/2015 at 2:12 PM, Lost Melnibonean said:

The Brightfyre theory grew out of dissatisfaction with the widely accepted Blackfyre theory, which posited that Jon Connington's Aegon was actually the son of Illyrio Mopatis and his wife, Serra. The Blackfyre theory assumed that Serra was the sister of Varys and they were descendants of Daemon Blackfyre. The Brightfyre theory was developed by readers who concluded that Illyrio was the Blackfyre descendant, and that Serra and Varys, the latter of whom surely has at least a drop of dragonblood, were descendants of Aerion.

 

On 7/10/2015 at 2:11 PM, Lost Melnibonean said:

Why is Darkstar the most dangerous man in all of Dorne? Could it be that he has a claim to the Iron Throne? Is it possible he could drag Dorne, or at least part of Dorne into a war to prosecute that claim?

 

I saw this old thread linked to in another current thread, and I think it worth resurrecting the old one you started for the detail you provide.

I include a link to an old post of mine only to show my agreement with the conclusion that Ser Gerold Dayne is very likely the descendant of Aerion Targaryen, the older brother of Maester Aemon and Egg. Now, when I reached the conclusion you did, I didn't have either ADwD or TWoI&F available and my conclusion was based not only on much the same information you quote, but also some speculation that turned out to be false. I wish I could provide the post in which I laid out my thinking, but, alas, forum upgrades seems to have done away with many of those older posts.

You see, back in those dark times we didn't know Maegor's name, or the name or existence of Aegon V's third son. So, part of my theory was based on Lady Olenna's story of how "they wanted to marry her off to a Targaryen once, but she put and end to that." A paraphrase, but close to what the Queen of Thorns tells Sansa. Looking at the lists of known Targaryen men of her generation and noting that Duncan and Jaehaerys were already accounted for, I assumed it likely that Aerion's son was the mysterious unnamed prospective husband the Queen of Thorns escaped from marrying. A logical guess, but it turned out to be wrong. That Targaryen turned out to be Egg's unknown and unheard of third son Daeron, and it seems very unlikely Lady Olenna was telling the truth about why the wedding did not take place.

Nonetheless, part of my reasoning for my conclusion was Egg's need to foster Aerion's son some place away from court with a loyalist family who would not use the child in any challenge to Aegon's own claim to the throne, or that of his descendants. Much like Maester Aemon did himself with his removal to the Wall for some of the same reasons. Little did I know that Maekar's wife, and Aegon's, Aemon's, and Aerion's  mother would turn out to be a Dayne. Based on this need and the insight that Doran's comment about Ser Gerold being "the most dangerous man in Dorne" and of course, knowing Ser Gerold's last name, I concluded that a marriage into the Dayne household made perfect sense. Not for Aerion's son, but for Aerion's granddaughter. I think we still don't know, for sure, what House Maegor married into.

More later, but I had to say I love this thread, and am glad to see we came to some of the same conclusions, even if we did so with different bits of information.

[Lost Melnibonean]

2 hours ago, SFDanny said:

 

 

I saw this old thread linked to in another current thread, and I think it worth resurrecting the old one you started for the detail you provide.

I include a link to an old post of mine only to show my agreement with the conclusion that Ser Gerold Dayne is very likely the descendant of Aerion Targaryen, the older brother of Maester Aemon and Egg. Now, when I reached the conclusion you did, I didn't have either ADwD or TWoI&F available and my conclusion was based not only on much the same information you quote, but also some speculation that turned out to be false. I wish I could provide the post in which I laid out my thinking, but, alas, forum upgrades seems to have done away with many of those older posts.

You see, back in those dark times we didn't know Maegor's name, or the name or existence of Aegon V's third son. So, part of my theory was based on Lady Olenna's story of how "they wanted to marry her off to a Targaryen once, but she put and end to that." A paraphrase, but close to what the Queen of Thorns tells Sansa. Looking at the lists of known Targaryen men of her generation and noting that Duncan and Jaehaerys were already accounted for, I assumed it likely that Aerion's son was the mysterious unnamed prospective husband the Queen of Thorns escaped from marrying. A logical guess, but it turned out to be wrong. That Targaryen turned out to be Egg's unknown and unheard of third son Daeron, and it seems very unlikely Lady Olenna was telling the truth about why the wedding did not take place.

Nonetheless, part of my reasoning for my conclusion was Egg's need to foster Aerion's son some place away from court with a loyalist family who would not use the child in any challenge to Aegon's own claim to the throne, or that of his descendants. Much like Maester Aemon did himself with his removal to the Wall for some of the same reasons. Little did I know that Maekar's wife, and Aegon's, Aemon's, and Aerion's  mother would turn out to be a Dayne. Based on this need and the insight that Doran's comment about Ser Gerold being "the most dangerous man in Dorne" and of course, knowing Ser Gerold's last name, I concluded that a marriage into the Dayne household made perfect sense. Not for Aerion's son, but for Aerion's granddaughter. I think we still don't know, for sure, what House Maegor married into.

More later, but I had to say I love this thread, and am glad to see we came to some of the same conclusions, even if we did so with different bits of information.