Darkstar is a Brightflame

[Pain killer Jane]

On 7/10/2015 at 2:11 PM, Lost Melnibonean said:

 

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"Garin the Great," offered Drey, "the wonder of the Rhoyne."

 

"That's the one. He made Valyria tremble."

 

"They trembled," said Ser Gerold, "then they killed him. If I led a quarter of a million men to death, would they call me Gerold the Great?" He snorted. "I shall remain Darkstar, I think. At least it is mine own." He unsheathed his longsword, sat upon the lip of the dry well, and began to hone the blade with an oilstone.

 

Arianne watched him warily. He is highborn enough to make a worthy consort, she thought. Father would question my good sense, but our children would be as beautiful as dragonlords. If there was a handsomer man in Dorne, she did not know him. Ser Gerold Dayne had an aquiline nose, high cheekbones, a strong jaw. He kept his face clean-shaven, but his thick hair fell to his collar like a silver glacier, pided by a streak of midnight black. He has a cruel mouth, though, and a crueler tongue. His eyes seemed black as he sat outlined against the dying sun, sharpening his steel, but she had looked at them from a closer vantage and she knew that they were purple. Dark purple. Dark and angry.

 

He must have felt her gaze upon him, for he looked up from his sword, met her eyes, and smiled. Arianne felt heat rushing to her face. I should never have brought him. If he gives me such a look when Arys is here, we will have blood on the sand. Whose, she could not say. By tradition the Kingsguard were the finest knights in all the Seven Kingdoms . . . but Darkstar was Darkstar.

The Queenmaker, Feast 21

 

I don't know if anyone pointed this out but his description always seemed like an echo of Ned cleaning Ice to me.

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Catelyn found her husband beneath the weirwood, seated on a moss-covered stone. The greatsword Ice was across his lap, and he was cleaning the blade in those waters black as night. A thousand years of humus lay thick upon the godswood floor, swallowing the sound of her feet, but the red eyes of the weirwood seemed to follow her as she came. "Ned," she called softly.

 

[Pain killer Jane]

On 7/10/2015 at 2:11 PM, Lost Melnibonean said:

The Brightfyre theory grew out of dissatisfaction with the widely accepted Blackfyre theory, which posited that Jon Connington's Aegon was actually the son of Illyrio Mopatis and his wife, Serra. The Blackfyre theory assumed that Serra was the sister of Varys and they were descendants of Daemon Blackfyre. The Brightfyre theory was developed by readers who concluded that Illyrio was the Blackfyre descendant, and that Serra and Varys, the latter of whom surely has at least a drop of dragonblood, were descendants of Aerion.

What I don't understand about the Brightfyre theory in relation to the Blackfyres is, since we are assuming that Bloodraven has seen the future with a Blackfyre on the throne especially if he is working and trying to stop Winter from coming and the Blackfyre sitting on the throne was a signal for Winter; if Aerion's line was involved, why didn't Bloodraven do everything to extinguish that line as well as the Blackfyres? 

Bloodraven seems like he would fall in the category with Prince Daemon Targ and Tywin.

[SFDanny]

On 7/10/2015 at 2:11 PM, Lost Melnibonean said:

Ser Gerold Dayne had an aquiline nose, high cheekbones, a strong jaw. He kept his face clean-shaven, but his thick hair fell to his collar like a silver glacier, pided by a streak of midnight black. He has a cruel mouth, though, and a crueler tongue. His eyes seemed black as he sat outlined against the dying sun, sharpening his steel, but she had looked at them from a closer vantage and she knew that they were purple. Dark purple. Dark and angry.

I think it is interesting to note the description of Ser Gerold's hair and compare that to Prince Valarr's own description in The Hedge Knight.

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Valarr, the Young Prince, stood vigil at the foot of the bier while his father lay in state. He was a shorter, slimmer, handsomer version of his sire, without the twice-broken nose that had made Baelor seem more human than royal. Valarr's hair was brown, but a bright streak of silver-gold ran through it. The sight of it reminded Dunk of Aerion, but he knew that was not fair. Egg's hair was growing back as bright as his brother's, and Egg was a decent enough lad, for a prince. (The Hedge Knight ) bold emphasis added.

Both men have streaks of a different color in their hair. One midnight black in silver hair, and the other the Targaryen silver-gold within the Dornish brown. It is notable that the description of Valarr's hair reminds Dunk of Aerion. Perhaps it is only the silver color in the Targaryen princes's hair, but there is a similarly to Aerion here, and we have to note also the similarity between Dayne's hair and Valarr's. Both have streaks of different color in their hair and this may point to it being a Targaryen trait. It is possible this is a hint or a nod towards Ser Gerold's heritage. 

I should say, I don't find the idea of a Doran Martell/Ser Gerold Dayne conspiracy credible. If Ser Gerold is indeed the descendant of Aerion, then he has an interest in forcing Dornish confrontation and possible war with the Lannisters in an effort to destabilize what he would see as the usurper of his rightful claim to the throne. Doran Martell has his own plots that don't include crowning Ser Gerold. 

 

[Lost Melnibonean]

3 hours ago, SFDanny said:

I think it is interesting to note the description of Ser Gerold's hair and compare that to Prince Valarr's own description in The Hedge Knight.

Both men have streaks of a different color in their hair. One midnight black in silver hair, and the other the Targaryen silver-gold within the Dornish brown. It is notable that the description of Valarr's hair reminds Dunk of Aerion. Perhaps it is only the silver color in the Targaryen princes's hair, but there is a similarly to Aerion here, and we have to note also the similarity between Dayne's hair and Valarr's. Both have streaks of different color in their hair and this may point to it being a Targaryen trait. It is possible this is a hint or a nod towards Ser Gerold's heritage. 

I should say, I don't find the idea of a Doran Martell/Ser Gerold Dayne conspiracy credible. If Ser Gerold is indeed the descendant of Aerion, then he has an interest in forcing Dornish confrontation and possible war with the Lannisters in an effort to destabilize what he would see as the usurper of his rightful claim to the throne. Doran Martell has his own plots that don't include crowning Ser Gerold. 

 

I don't think Doran intends to back a claim by Gerold, assuming Gerold has a potential claim. 

[SFDanny]

4 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

I don't think Doran intends to back a claim by Gerold, assuming Gerold has a potential claim. 

No, I understand that's not your position, but it is something others are talking about. I think any claim Darkstar thinks he has is a product of his own over active imagination fueled by a bitterness of years of being "overlooked." We know Doran had his own plans that involved Arianne and Viserys, not Ser Gerold. The plot with Myrcella is not, in my opinion, secretly orchestrated by Doran using Dayne as his tool. This is just Ser Gerold seizing the moment to try to start a war. It's worth noting that it is very unlikely Dayne even knows about Daenerys's whereabouts, and certainly he knows nothing of Aegon. The Darkstar sees this is a moment in which the Lannisters can be challenged, and who knows if he can advance his claim to the throne in the chaos that follows.

I probably should have made it much more clear that the part of my response about Valarr and his hair, its prompting Dunk to think of Aerion, and a possible relationship to Ser Gerold all was meant as a addition to your quotes about Dayne's descriptions by Arianne. And I should have also made it much more clear that the last paragraph was not directed to your posts. Sorry for any confusion.

[LiveFirstDieLater]

Darkstar being "the most dangerous man in Dorne" is what makes his question so appealing/interesting to me... and a nicely laid out discussion Lost Melnibonean, as always.

I see three major options for Doran's opinion of Gerold Dayne:

1) Most dangerous man echos Arthur Dayne's being the greatest swordsman in the Seven Kingdoms. Darkstar is just a remarkably good soldier.

2) Darkstar has a secret heritage, Targ bastard, or Brightflame (decendant), or Blackfyre, or even Oberyn's son. What makes him dangerous is his claim to something (Iron Throne, Sunspear, a dragon).

3) Something he knows, some secret, is what makes him such a threat to Doran.

Given how few details we have about Darkstar's past, they are all sort of shots in the dark... but in general I think 1 is the least likely and 3 the most.

It seems to me that Darkstar would have been the right age to be a squire during Robert's Rebellion or there abouts, he's bitter about the Sword of the Morning (Dawn), and Oberyn didn't like him for some reason.

Totally speculation, but my guess he was around for Ned's stop at Starfall to see Ashara (and whatever other super secret details went down, awww screw it may as well throw out there that I have a nagging suspicion that High Hermitage will end up being the location of the Red Door and the Lemon Tree).

[Lost Melnibonean]

1 hour ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Darkstar being "the most dangerous man in Dorne" is what makes his question so appealing/interesting to me... and a nicely laid out discussion Lost Melnibonean, as always.

I see three major options for Doran's opinion of Gerold Dayne:

1) Most dangerous man echos Arthur Dayne's being the greatest swordsman in the Seven Kingdoms. Darkstar is just a remarkably good soldier.

2) Darkstar has a secret heritage, Targ bastard, or Brightflame (decendant), or Blackfyre, or even Oberyn's son. What makes him dangerous is his claim to something (Iron Throne, Sunspear, a dragon).

3) Something he knows, some secret, is what makes him such a threat to Doran.

Given how few details we have about Darkstar's past, they are all sort of shots in the dark... but in general I think 1 is the least likely and 3 the most.

It seems to me that Darkstar would have been the right age to be a squire during Robert's Rebellion or there abouts, he's bitter about the Sword of the Morning (Dawn), and Oberyn didn't like him for some reason.

Totally speculation, but my guess he was around for Ned's stop at Starfall to see Ashara (and whatever other super secret details went down, awww screw it may as well throw out there that I have a nagging suspicion that High Hermitage will end up being the location of the Red Door and the Lemon Tree).

I like the way you lay out three options. But I would say 1 is the most likely. IIRC, Jaime is referred to similarly earlier in the saga. 

[LiveFirstDieLater]

58 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

I like the way you lay out three options. But I would say 1 is the most likely. IIRC, Jaime is referred to similarly earlier in the saga. 

I hear you, and you could well be right... if it was "most deadly man in Dorne", or "most fearsome man in Dorne" I'd agree right away.

but for some reason "most dangerous" gives me pause, especially coming from Doran.

[Tom Cruise]

This is great.  A lot of people treat Darkstar like he's been shoehorned into the story.  A fabricated character to help with the loss of the five year gap.

All of this makes me believe he will be an even more important character than I thought.  I'm not saying I think the whole Blackfyre story is a red herring to distract from the Brightfyre plot, but hell, I wasn't even aware of a Brightfyre plot before I read this.

Kudos from Tom Cruise my friend.

[Lost Melnibonean]

On 7/10/2015 at 10:28 PM, Daemon Blackfyre IV said:

Well he has Valaryen features same nose as Harry the heir and Laenor Valaryon.

 

The aquiline nose is a Valyrian feature...

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Ser Laenor had the aquiline nose, silver-white hair, and purple eyes that bespoke his Valyrian blood.

The Rogue Prince

[Daemon Blackfyre IV]

On 7/21/2017 at 1:59 PM, Lost Melnibonean said:

The aquiline nose is a Valyrian feature...

The Rogue Prince

Um yup that's what i said lol, let's not forget Daario.

[Lost Melnibonean]

11 hours ago, Daemon Blackfyre IV said:

Um yup that's what i said lol, let's not forget Daario.

@Lady Blizzardborn has a great thread on Daario. On don't believe he is The Blackfyre, but the thread explores some interesting ideas. 

[Lady Blizzardborn]

5 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

@Lady Blizzardborn has a great thread on Daario. On don't believe he is The Blackfyre, but the thread explores some interesting ideas. 

Thanks for the shoutout, LM.

[Daemon Blackfyre IV]

On 7/27/2017 at 0:52 PM, Lost Melnibonean said:

@Lady Blizzardborn has a great thread on Daario. On don't believe he is The Blackfyre, but the thread explores some interesting ideas. 

Thank you both I will be checking that out now. I did post something in someone else thread a long time ago I have a couple different ideas I look forward to reading this One.

[Lost Melnibonean]

Ok, this is a bit off the ledge, but assuming this theory is correct, and assuming the brief side tale about Trystane Truefyre was inserted into the Dance of the Dragons for a reason other than fluff for a story that had to be trimmed by thousands of words, perhaps Trystane Truefyre foreshadows Darkstar briefly seizing the Iron Throne? 

[Damon_Tor]

On 7/10/2015 at 6:25 PM, falcotron said:

One more thing: You really think Darkstar thinks he has a claim, that anyone will back, for the throne based on his mother being descended from someone who was explicitly passed over for inheritance a few generations before the Rebellion? Even if he thought that before, is it really likely to matter after Arianne goes off to meet Aegon?

Well it may well be important to talk about the snubbing of Maegor: he was disqualified because his father was insane. So either that's a valid argument and Daenerys would be disqualified based on her father's madness or it's NOT a valid argument and Maegor's theoretical descendant would have a stronger case than Daenerys on the grounds that Maegor shouldn't have been disqualified to begin with.

That said, I'm not compelled by the OP's reasoning. The thematic connections he's drawn seem a bit straw-graspy. He makes the case that it's not impossible, and he's right, it isn't, but the evidence that it's likely isn't there in my opinion. Darkstar is a neat character, and I can see the temptation for giving him a claim to the throne, but his importance is more likely to stem from the fact that he's a Dayne. Being a Dayne is probably going to be more important than having a claim to the Iron Throne as the story moves on to more mythic themes.

[Lost Melnibonean]

2 minutes ago, Damon_Tor said:

Well it may well be important to talk about the snubbing of Maegor: he was disqualified because his father was insane. So either that's a valid argument and Daenerys would be disqualified based on her father's madness or it's NOT a valid argument and Maegor's theoretical descendant would have a stronger case than Daenerys on the grounds that Maegor shouldn't have been disqualified to begin with.

That said, I'm not compelled by the OP's reasoning. The thematic connections he's drawn seem a bit straw-graspy. He makes the case that it's not impossible, and he's right, it isn't, but the evidence that it's likely isn't there in my opinion. Darkstar is a neat character, and I can see the temptation for giving him a claim to the throne, but his importance is more likely to stem from the fact that he's a Dayne. Being a Dayne is probably going to be more important than having a claim to the Iron Throne as the story moves on to more mythic themes.

Fair critique. 

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

 

he was disqualified because his father was insane. So either that's a valid argument and Daenerys would be disqualified based on her father's madness or it's NOT a valid argument and Maegor's theoretical descendant would have a stronger case than Daenerys on the grounds that Maegor shouldn't have been disqualified to begin with.

Except it wasn't only because of his father's madness. According to the World Book, it was also because he was so young.

"Only a few spoke up for Aerion Brightflame's son Maegor; an infant king would have meant a long, contentious regency, and there were also fears that the boy might have inherited his father's cruelty and madness."

In fact, from reading this again, it seems like his father's madness was a secondary issue to his age. 

 

 

Where do I find the quote box in this new format? 

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

On 5/10/2018 at 9:34 PM, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

Except it wasn't only because of his father's madness. According to the World Book, it was also because he was so young.

"Only a few spoke up for Aerion Brightflame's son Maegor; an infant king would have meant a long, contentious regency, and there were also fears that the boy might have inherited his father's cruelty and madness."

In fact, from reading this again, it seems like his father's madness was a secondary issue to his age. 

I agree. In fact, it was due to his young age that they could not predict whether he had inherited his father's madness. Daenerys is much older, so that might not be an issue for some (but could be used as a reason by her enemies).