Abel and the Washerwomen Foreshadowing in ACOK

[sweetsunray]

I think Asha would be a good choice if it's to be a temporary stewardship, although Mage Mormont has more reason to want vengeance.

I had been thinking that Ramsay would not survive the battle of ice - if so, it would have to be one of those two somehow defeating him out in the snow. That would be fitting, returning Ramsay to the "Snow" that he is.

Maege isn't there, but Alysane Mormont is. And a lot of revenge cycles involve bears.

[LmL]

Maege isn't there, but Alysane Mormont is. And a lot of revenge cycles involve bears.

Ah, that's what I meant. Bears and revenge, you say?

[sweetsunray]

Ah, that's what I meant. Bears and revenge, you say?

I've been writing essays on the bear themes in the books. One essay is about the bear's revenge: Harrenhal, Purple Wedding, Red Wedding, Craster's Keep, Theon. Link to the thread is in my sig. The bear-themes so far are "sexual awakening", "revenge" (on the moral side) often involving ending bloodlines, "totemic ancestry" (as with the Mormonts) that establishes a bloodline. Writing one now about "dancing bears" related to weddings and marriages. There are even textual hints that Harrenhal's curse stems from bear mistreatment. Harren built the bear pit and loved bear baiting.

ETA: it may be something of worth for you to read. The bear spirit was commonly believed to be celestial, and it must be released and returned to the heavens, tying back to the Callisto myth of her and her son ending up as stars in the two bear constellations.

[LmL]

Which one to start on sweetsunray? Sounds very interesting, and I have been ignoring bears because 1.) I am paying attention to a lot of things already, and 2.) I don't know shit about bear lore. So I'd be excited to read your research, for sure. Which is the first bear thread?

[sarah.jenice]

Good catch, OP.

Of all people to put in control of Winterfell, I don't see why Stannis would name Asha Greyjoy (if Stannis wins the upcoming battles of course). He just liberated Deepwood Motte from her control and is trying to bind the northmen to his cause, not further alienate them.

Stannis has known all along he needs a Stark to win the loyalty of the north. Saving "Lady Arya" from the Boltons will help gain their trust, but I don't see how he could entrust Winterfell to anyone but a northman. Lord Manderly would be a good choice, especially since he's the one who dispatched Ser Davos in the search for Rickon.

I see where you're coming from with the foreshadowing alluding to a female gaining control of Winterfell though. Perhaps LF will soon move toward unveiling Sansa and pushing her claim to the north.

[LmL]

If Asha "took down Ramsay" and became a figurative PoWF, it would likely be symbolic and temporary. You're right she can't be any kind of legitimate ruler of WF, no doubt. I'm thinking more symbolically if Ramsay is to be taken down in the upcoming battle. Ultimately the foreshadowing would make the most sense for Arya or Sansa.

Arya might have just burned her bridge with the FM by murdering someone she wasn't supposed to and skipping out on Izembaro, which I could easily enable her return to Westeros in book 6. Sansa is occupied with Vale politics but by the end of the book that could change.

[sweetsunray]

Which one to start on sweetsunray? Sounds very interesting, and I have been ignoring bears because 1.) I am paying attention to a lot of things already, and 2.) I don't know shit about bear lore. So I'd be excited to read your research, for sure. Which is the first bear thread?

All the essays are in the same thread, the Bear and the Maiden fair. First essay is an introduction into bear lore, bear taboo, bear ritual, bear legend.

[SevasTra82]

If the most hated man in ASOIAF left (Ramsey) get's killed by everyone's favorite darling of the books (Arya)....the fan-gasm that would ensue may be too much to bear.

[prop joe's fingernails]

also, that was ramsey (who called himself reek) who was killing in winterfell right? and now its possible that the new reek, or his split personality (theon), is killing ramseys men in winterfell.

[LmL]

Theon Durdan did it!

Thing is, for symbolic value, Theon being accused of doing the killings is enough to create symmetry. But rewinding, if it was the soon to be PoWF that was doing the killings, perhaps the next PoWF is someone doing the killings now? That would leave Mance - for him to play the Prince role he'd have to escape his cage and lead to Ramsay's undoing from inside. That would be cool, and would reference the Bael story, where Baels child becomes he PoWF after he escapes.

[bemused]

I believe Ramsay is doing the killing in Winterfell in both instances..It's the first connection that crosses Theon's mind, but he doesn't follow it to it's logical conclusion - possibly because he's not won free of his own (imposed) role as Reek yet.(He knows he didn't do the killings.) ...And possibly because he simply can't conceive that Ramsay would dare to try to manipulate Roose in the same way.

However, we know that since Barrowton, Ramsay always wanted to move against Stannis first and he is chafing under Roose's restrictions.

Asha, sitting in the high seat pulling apart a capon with her fingers, could be a stand in for many candidates.. And I think we should not leave out Lyanna Stark, acting by extension through her son. (She has already symbolically been awarded status equal to the Lords of Winterfell and the Kings of Winter by Ned erecting a statue of her in the crypts.)

Perhaps it's intended to be read an entirely different way. Theon took WF, not primarily to gain the high seat of the Starks, but to prove he was worthy of the Seastone chair. Perhaps the seat itself is a stand-in.. Asha (fertility unknown) was already Balon's favourite for heir.. but if Asha should come to power, she would alter (dismember?) the way of life of the Ironborn, which she currently sees as non-productive - less obvious, but as much a capon, in Asha's view , as we now know Theon is about to become.

OTOH, I think Theon almost certainly managed to reproduce while he was still a rooster (with the daughter of the captain of the Myraham)..and Asha might be enough of a mother hen to feel moved to raise the chick.

I've not found an end to GRRM's subtlety yet, and agree that too much (or sometimes too little) is made of him being a "Gardener". People forget sometimes that gardener almost always knows what kind of seed he's planted. We don't know what goes on in his greenhouse. If he pinches back the new leaves at one stage or another, the plant will grow more bushy (likely concealing the fruit for a good long while)..And in Westeros, there's always the possibility of cross-pollination :).... Guys, the analogies are endless..

I want to say more, but I'm being dragged away...

[LmL]

Awesome comments Bemused, as an actual gardener of plants, I enjoyed your reference to super cropping. ;)

Interesting angle on Asha and the capon, and certainly we know that both ideas may be implied. Asha certainly would revolutionize the lifestyle of the Ironborn, so that seems to fit pretty well.

Interesting observation that Lyanna's elevated statues makes Jon a kind of symbolic prince. On two levels, then, since he was ostensibly some kind of heir to the Targ claim to the throne for a few minutes or so.

[Taenqyrhae]

I don't think he's really foreshadowing that much. We know from his letter to the publisher that he has radically changed his plans for the series as he's been writing them. I think he re-reads his old books before starting a new one, and gets ideas for things he can write to connect to the earlier chapters, that certainly seems much more plausible. I did the same thing when I was writing a novel, it's hard not to.

[LmL]

I don't doubt there is some of that going on, but the "ale or bale" thing right next to the washerwomen phrase is just undeniable IMO.

[prop joe's fingernails]

Theon Durdan did it!

Thing is, for symbolic value, Theon being accused of doing the killings is enough to create symmetry. But rewinding, if it was the soon to be PoWF that was doing the killings, perhaps the next PoWF is someone doing the killings now? That would leave Mance - for him to play the Prince role he'd have to escape his cage and lead to Ramsay's undoing from inside. That would be cool, and would reference the Bael story, where Baels child becomes he PoWF after he escapes.

youre not with mance writing the bastard letter then? i think mance is still unnoticed, and is going to either help stannis as this was probably mels plan to write the letter and get jon to bring the wildling force to WF (i think im on to something here)

"What of Rattleshirt and his spearwives? Where is my sister?"

"All your questions shall be answered. Look to the skies, Lord Snow. And when you have your answers, send to me. Winter is almost upon us now. I am your only hope."

it was her plan to forge the letter, that is why the only thing incorrect with the forging of it is the wax. she wouldnt know to change it to white after the marriage. also she would think that jeyne is arya and is actually trying to help him, which would be cool as this would mean the only reason she spared mance was to save jons fsister.

[Mithras]

Arya at Harrenhal vs. Reek at Winterfell

Ø Harrenhal is a massive castle burned by dragonfire. Some parts of it were in ruins and not used for a long time when Arya came.

Ø When Reek returned to Winterfell, they found the castle burned and ruined.

…

Ø Arya was called Weasel at Harrenhal.

Ø Theon was Reek in Winterfell.

…

Ø Tywin brought his large host to Harrenhal and the castle was filled with people probably since the last king Harren the Black gathered his armies.

Ø Roose brought his host to Winterfell and there we have a large gathering for the first time since Robb (later king) left.

…

Ø Harrenhal is thought to be accursed and haunted by ghosts but Arya does not believe any of it.

Ø Winterfell gives you the constant (you are no Stark, get out) feeling and I think it is no less haunted than Harrenhal now. Theon thought there are many ghosts in Winterfell and he spoke with them from time to time.

…

Ø Weese was a horror. Just in three days, he climbed to a position of honor in Arya's death list. He had a dog, an ugly spotted bitch that smelled worse than any dog Arya had ever known. Weese turned Arya into a mouse.

Ø Ramsay turned Theon into Reek, a foul smelling creature loyal as a dog.

…

Ø Arya prayed to the old gods in the godswood of Harrenhal. She wished to be a wolf again and be waterdancer.

Ø Theon prayed to the old gods in the godswood of Winterfell. He wished to be Theon again and die with a sword in his hand.

…

Ø Jaqen followed Arya to the godswood and talked with her.

Ø Spearwives followed Theon to the godswood and talked with him.

…

Ø Weese's dog was poisoned with basilisk's blood and tore the throat of its master and put to death by a crossbowman. That poison makes you madly brave.

Ø Theon quitted being Reek and dared to kidnap fArya. He thought old Reek would certainly kill the spearwives and turn them in. But he did not.

…

Ø Beric is a one-eyed outlaw killing Lannister men outside the Harrenhal. He employs unconventional tactics.

Ø Crowfood is a one-eyed outlaw outside Winterfell. He also employs unconventional tactics.

…

Ø While Tywin was marching to and staying at Harrenhal, King Robb was fighting and taking castles.

Ø While Roose was marching to and staying at Winterfell, King Stannis was fighting and taking castles (Deepwood).

…

Ø There are the treacherous Bloody Mummers serving Tywin.

Ø There are the treacherous Freys serving Roose.

…

Ø Tywin was thinking of settling down to Harrenhal completely as it was the seat of kings.

Ø Roose was thinking of declaring himself King in the North.

…

Ø Tywin was accompanied by three maesters.

Ø Roose was accompanied by three maesters.

…

Ø Roose's army was close but he was waiting at the crossings instead of crossing the river.

Ø Stannis' army was close but he is still waiting at the frozen lake instead of moving further.

…

Ø Jaqen came to transform Arya back to herself.

Ø Mance came to transform Theon back to himself.

…

Ø Tywin marched for Battle of Blackwater and left Amory Lorch and Vargo Hoat back.

Ø This time it is reversed. Roose stayed back and sent Freys, Manderlys and Ramsay forth.

…

Ø Vargo betrayed Tywin and secretly shook hands with Roose. They took Harrenhal by a trick.

Ø Manderly is likely to betray Roose and he may secretly shake hands with Stannis to kill the Freys. They may play a similar game to take Winterfell.

…

Ø Arya escaped Harrenhal and was captured by the one-eyed outlaw Beric.

Ø Theon and fArya escaped Winterfell and were captured by the one-eyed outlaw Crowfood.

…

Ø Tywin brought some prisoners to Harrenhal including wounded Lord Cerwyn ever loyal to the Starks. He died from his wounds.

Ø Lord Manderly, ever loyal to the Starks, was wounded by Hosteen. Although the maesters are attending him, he may not survive. His son Willis was betrayed by Roose and taken captive by Gregor. The maesters of Roose can make sure that happen.

…

Ø Gregor is a psycho accompanied by a cruel lot in Harrenhal. Arya had one of his men killed.

Ø Ramsay is a psycho accompanied by a cruel lot in Winterfell. One of Ramsay's men was killed.

…

Ø Beric died and came back to life several times.

Ø Mors Umber died and came back to life (at least according to the poor crow).

…

Ø Roose was nitpicking “my lords” of Nan vs. “m'lords” of Reek.

…

There are some people who were at Harrenhal with Arya and then in Winterfell with Theon.

Ser Aenys Frey

Ser Hosteen Frey

Roose Bolton (but this time he assumes the role of Tywin)

Walton Steelshanks

Maybe Robett Glover

…

Arya's return to her true self and Theon's return to his trueself were similar and happened in the godswood.

“Tell me what to do, you gods,” she prayed.

For a long moment there was no sound but the wind and the water and the creak of leaf and limb. And then, far far off, beyond the godswood and the haunted towers and the immense stone walls of Harrenhal, from somewhere out in the world, came the long lonely howl of a wolf. Gooseprickles rose on Arya’s skin, and for an instant she felt dizzy. Then, so faintly, it seemed as if she heard her father’s voice. “When the snows fall and the white winds blow, the lone wolf dies, but the pack survives,” he said.

“But there is no pack,” she whispered to the weirwood. Bran and Rickon were dead, the Lannisters had Sansa, Jon had gone to the Wall. “I’m not even me now, I’m Nan.”

“You are Arya of Winterfell, daughter of the north. You told me you could be strong. You have the wolf blood in you.”

“The wolf blood.” Arya remembered now. “I’ll be as strong as Robb. I said I would.” She took a deep breath, then lifted the broomstick in both hands and brought it down across her knee. It broke with a loud crack, and she threw the pieces aside. I am a direwolf, and done with wooden teeth.

The night was windless, the snow drifting straight down out of a cold black sky, yet the leaves of the heart tree were rustling his name. “Theon,” they seemed to whisper, “Theon.”

The old gods, he thought. They know me. They know my name. I was Theon of House Greyjoy. I was a ward of Eddard Stark, a friend and brother to his children. “Please.” He fell to his knees. “A sword, that’s all I ask. Let me die as Theon, not as Reek.” Tears trickled down his cheeks, impossibly warm. “I was ironborn. A son … a son of Pyke, of the islands.”

[LmL]

Wow, great stuff. I have noticed several pairs of matching chapters, but usually consecutive chapters (particularly in AFFC and ADWD), but also in chapter that either tale place in the same location, or in two locations which are intended to be contrasted with each other (such as the chamber with the dragon skulls beneath KLand the crypts of WF). Obviously I found this PoWF connection here, but its awesome that he is ALSO paralleling this action in an Arya chapter.

Really makes you wonder just how far the complexity goes with George R. R. Martin. always tell people not to underestimate him...

[Mithras]

This is a good way to write a big saga. Just make a draft (or pick one from readily available myths, histories etc.); write a plot based on that draft; play with the parameters of the draft and obtain more plots.

[LmL]

In this case "the draft" is the celestial pattern which I spend all my time pointing out. That's essentially what he has done - created an astronomical scenario which could be used to tell stories with the themes he wanted to use (the dual-edged procreation / death Lightbringer thing). and then replicate various parts of the pattern over and over again. In a way, he's going to extra effort to create these complex metaphors, but on the other hand, it creates a ready made skeleton which can be molded to various scenes. That's my theory in a nutshell. ;)

[sweetsunray]

This is a good way to write a big saga. Just make a draft (or pick one from readily available myths, histories etc.); write a plot based on that draft; play with the parameters of the draft and obtain more plots.

 

Agreed Mithras... BTW the next chapter of Arya at Harrenhal leads to another analogy, one with Tyrion

 

• Arya, Gendry and Hot Pie escape Harrenhal: 2 boys and 1 girl
• Penny, Tyrion and Jorah escape slavery: 2 men and 1 woman

 

•  Gendry is afraid and considers himself a failure, some of his fighting spirit seems broken
• Jorah is a broken man

 

• Hot Pie is happy in his kitchen
• Penny is happy to be performing at Daznak’s Pit

 

• Arya tends to Roose Bolton with Qyburn with his leeches
• Tyrion tends to Yezzan (and Nurse) with Sweets as he’s dying from dysnetheria (pale mare)

 

• Lord Bolton intends to leave Harrenhal
• Yezzan will die soon

 

• Arya talks hopefully of Winterfell and Gendry smithing there
• Penny talks of sailing to Qarth and being hailed with gold

 

• Vargo Hoat keeps people from running by chopping their foot off.
• Nurse flings runaway slaves with slings, and keeps the others pinned with feet bound.
•  
• People are thrown in the bear pit with the black bear.
• Lions were supposed to be let loose on Tyrion and Penny in Daznak’s pit.

 

• Penny has no idea how to fight for Brown Ben Plumm.
• Hot Pie is no good for fighting.

 

• Arya considered revealing herself to Glover, but hesitated and he left for Darry and Duskendale before she could
• Tyrion considered revealing himself to Dany while in the pit, but hesitates, and the dragon queen has flown off on Drogon

 

• Arya has arguments with other servants and Elmar Frey regarding rank
• Tyrion has arguments with slave soldiers regarding rank
•  
• Arya kills a guard with a dagger and says "Valar Morghulis"
• Tyrion poisons Nurse with mushrooms and says "a Lannister always pays his debt"

 

• Arya , Hot Pie and Gendry get caught by the Brotherhood without Banners (King’s Men)
• Tyrion, Penny and Jorah join Brown Ben Plumm’s Second Sons who switches sides to fight for the Queen

 

• Gendry actively joins the Brotherhood and gets knighted
• Jorah revives and becomes a warrior