R+L=J v 150

[J. Stargaryen]

snip

 

Bran Vras has a similar idea about Rhaegar seeking out a special female line somewhere in his [url=http://branvras.free.fr/HuisClos/Contents.html]The Winterfell Huis Clos[/url]. I'm not 100% sure which section it's in, but I think it might be [url=http://branvras.free.fr/HuisClos/Queen.html]A True Queen[/url].

 

Um, since Jaime has another brother, Tyrion, I think the phrasing is very telling because it's in the context of who the heir is.
Neither Cersei nor Rhaenys would be heirs in which case, JonCon would just say:"I give you Prince Aegon, son of Prince Rhaegar and the Princess Elia Martell," as opposed to "I give you Prince Aegon, firstborn son of Prince Rhaegar and the Princess Elia Martell."
In fact, comparing this to the others who have other male siblings is very compelling.
As for Lyonel Selmy, He very well could have fathered other SONS, just not legitimately.
Certainly such formal language of the times indicates birth order of heirs, and to a blood-line obsessed society where land was wealth, such language would be deliberate.

 

Good point.

[Lord Varys]

Unless Lyanna the 13-14-year-old girl at Harrenhal was a learned scholar in prophecy stuff I doubt that any agency on her part was more than her hormones.

 

Rhaegar and Lyanna aren't equal partners - unless we consider a married man in his twenties seducing and abducting a 14-15-year-old girl is usually considered a healthy and normal relationship until proven to be otherwise.

 

The best take on this on Lyanna's side is that she was just struck by her wolf blood and heavily infatuated with Rhaegar. Young Lyanna as described in Howland's story was quite a hot-headed and passionate Arya-like girl, not somebody who cared about prophecy or magic (this is further backed by Bran's vision of Lyanna and Benjen).

 

I'd still expect that Lyanna had no inclination of running away with Rhaegar or becoming his second wife/mistress. She was a Stark of Winterfell, and the Starks usually do their duty and don't besmirch the family honor by breaking marriage contracts. Lyanna's duty was to marry Robert, so that would have been what she intended to do despite the fact that she may have been in love with Rhaegar. We don't yet know what the meaning of the coronation was - a farewell gesture, a desperate attempt on Rhaegar's side to win Lyanna's hand, a way to recognize her prowess as a tourney knight (very unlikely if you ask me) - but it obviously had no immediate consequences. Rhaegar went back to Dragonstone without Lyanna.

 

Connington stuff:

 

I recognized the phrasing there, too, and there might be something to it. As you know, I consider it quite likely now that Lyanna and Rhaegar did marry somewhat publicly, and it is quite likely that Connington was there as well as one of the original half a dozen companions when Rhaegar began his journey. Connington may subsequently also have learned that Lyanna was pregnant - if it was known that she was married to Rhaegar there was no reason to keep that top secret. Whether he knows what happened to any child from that union is unclear - but then, he is working with Varys and Illyrio and they may very well know for a certainty (or have deduced) that Jon Snow is not actually Ned Stark's bastard.

In any case, the phrasing there is at least most definitely a nod to the reader that Aegon may not be Rhaegar's only son.

[UnViserion]

The question is-- would JonCon aid Lord Snow?

[Alia of the knife]

 
Bran Vras has a similar idea about Rhaegar seeking out a special female line somewhere in his The Winterfell Huis Clos. I'm not 100% sure which section it's in, but I think it might be A True Queen.
 

 
Good point.

Thanks, and Thanks for the link!

[Alia of the knife]

Unless Lyanna the 13-14-year-old girl at Harrenhal was a learned scholar in prophecy stuff I doubt that any agency on her part was more than her hormones.
 
Rhaegar and Lyanna aren't equal partners - unless we consider a married man in his twenties seducing and abducting a 14-15-year-old girl is usually considered a healthy and normal relationship until proven to be otherwise.
 
The best take on this on Lyanna's side is that she was just struck by her wolf blood and heavily infatuated with Rhaegar. Young Lyanna as described in Howland's story was quite a hot-headed and passionate Arya-like girl, not somebody who cared about prophecy or magic (this is further backed by Bran's vision of Lyanna and Benjen).
 
I'd still expect that Lyanna had no inclination of running away with Rhaegar or becoming his second wife/mistress. She was a Stark of Winterfell, and the Starks usually do their duty and don't besmirch the family honor by breaking marriage contracts. Lyanna's duty was to marry Robert, so that would have been what she intended to do despite the fact that she may have been in love with Rhaegar. We don't yet know what the meaning of the coronation was - a farewell gesture, a desperate attempt on Rhaegar's side to win Lyanna's hand, a way to recognize her prowess as a tourney knight (very unlikely if you ask me) - but it obviously had no immediate consequences. Rhaegar went back to Dragonstone without Lyanna.
 
Connington stuff:
 
I recognized the phrasing there, too, and there might be something to it. As you know, I consider it quite likely now that Lyanna and Rhaegar did marry somewhat publicly, and it is quite likely that Connington was there as well as one of the original half a dozen companions when Rhaegar began his journey. Connington may subsequently also have learned that Lyanna was pregnant - if it was known that she was married to Rhaegar there was no reason to keep that top secret. Whether he knows what happened to any child from that union is unclear - but then, he is working with Varys and Illyrio and they may very well know for a certainty (or have deduced) that Jon Snow is not actually Ned Stark's bastard.
In any case, the phrasing there is at least most definitely a nod to the reader that Aegon may not be Rhaegar's only son.

I am swayed that their marriage was public, and it's my speculation that Cersei got her fears of being set aside by something she saw in her lifetime happen to another royal wife

(PM coming tomorrow). :)

[Alia of the knife]

The question is-- would JonCon aid Lord Snow?

If it meant total victory for Aegons cause to join forces with Jon, especially as he proves himself an able fighter and commander who also brings the North with him, JC would be foolish not to.

[Fire Eater]

Fire Eater,

 

reread the whole stuff on Marilda's sons. She sends them to Dragonstone when Jace puts forth his call for dragonseeds. She wants her sons to make a try on dragons - but that doesn't mean that she ever wanted them to become legitimized or that Corlys, she, or Jace demanded of them to prove their heritage before they would do that. In fact, it is Corlys and Jace who convince Rhaenyra to legitimize them suggesting that at least Jace knew perfectly well whose son he actually was. He was as much involved in the whole legitimation thing as Corlys was.

 

We don't know who Hugh, Ulf, or Nettles' parents were. We only know that Ulf was a man-at-arms on Dragonstone, that Hugh was the bastard of a blacksmith, and that Nettles was a foul-mouthed brown girl. That's it. Who exactly Hugh's father was, who Ulf's parents were, and where the hell Nettles came from we don't know. The magic word there is 'unrecognized Targaryen bastard'. If Hugh's father and a Targaryen/Velaryon had an affair with his mother it is quite likely that he was proclaimed to be the father (not to mention that the mother could have been a Targaryen bastard, too). Ulf's father could have been a Targaryen, too, or both his parents could have been Targaryen bastards. We simply do not know. But considering that they are all people from Dragonstone/Driftmark it is actually quite likely considering that most of the population on those islands may have Valyrian ancestors.

 

If Corlys and Rhaenys had issue with Rhaenyra's sons they hid it perfectly well. It wasn't Rhaenyra's fault that their son Laenor was incapable or unwilling to father children on her. And I'm pretty sure Corlys and Rhaenys knew their own son perfectly well - it is no coincidence that he wasn't betrothed to anyone when Viserys I considering marrying him to Rhaenyra - suggesting that the heir of the richest man of Westeros wasn't exactly willing or eager to get a wife and refused all previous offers for his hand.

 

Who cares about the actual facts regarding Jon Snow's birth? Daenerys certainly wouldn't care if she doubted his heritage. All she needs to do is to stick to the official story - if she has an army and dragons (and Jon Snow does not) nobody will care what he says. Just as nobody cares what Stannis says. Nobody will care about that bog-devil either - I'm pretty sure most of the Realm doesn't even know the name of that so-called Lord of the crannogmen. The man didn't leave his swamps for nearly two decades. You don't have the reputation of being an honest guy if nobody knows who you even are. Aegon has Jon Connington, Jon Snow will have one or two nobodies (if Wylla shows up).

 

Addam and Alyn made that decision not her. They ultimately were legitimized after Addam mounted a dragon. No, it doesn't suggest Jace knew whose son Addam was. Legitimized bastards still come behind trueborn children. 

 

If their parents were Targaryens, that would have been acknowledged. TPatQ makes it quite clear that if the child is recognized as a Targaryen bastard it is noticed. If Ulf's father had been a Targaryen that clearly would have been mentioned. Targaryen bastards are acknowledged as exemplified by their mothers receiving gifts. 

 

Corlys and Rhaenys couldn't complain without slighting the Princess of Dragonstone and creating conflict with the king. 

 

She clearly would care about the facts. If she wanted to disprove it she would want facts regarding his history and origins. Her claim isn't based on dragons and an army, but by virtue of being the Targaryen heir. Stannis's claim is presented as a way for him to gain the IT while HR gains nothing by saying Jon is Rhaegar's son. Jon might also have Ashara.  

 

 

Not to mention that this entire scenario of Jon vs. Daenerys makes no sense whatsoever in this series. We have Tyrion who already befriended Jon Snow (as well as Aemon, Varys, Illyrio, and Aegon) and who will hook up with Daenerys. He should be able to prevent any tensions between these - especially in light of this whole Others thing. I expect Jon Snow to run and beg Daenerys for help, not her offering him help - to threaten the whole Realm the Others have to actually threaten the Realm in a perceivable manner and that should only work if they actually sent the few survivors of the wildlings, NW, Northmen running down south as far as they can. The Neck could then become a second frontier but all the lands north of it should be lost as soon as the Wall falls. But even the Neck cannot stand for long, I imagine, since the Others will freeze the water, kill all the lizard lions, and turn them against the crannogmen.

 

If Jon Snow did look like a Targaryen or was not raised as a bastard he could have a chance to put forth a claim. But if Daenerys puts Aegon down simply because she wants the throne for herself as Queen Regnant (i.e. she is not willing to resolve the crisis by marrying Aegon VI Targaryen to become his co-ruler and Queen Consort) - and not because of all that unproven Blackfyre talk - then there is no reason why the hell anyone in her team would then suddenly switch to Jon Snow's cause or care whatever the hell he says. A claim is only as good as you can make it sound - Stannis' is no good because nobody likes the man; if nobody likes you, nobody cares about your legal rights - and Jon Snow cannot have the men to actually challenge Daenerys' claim.

 

The irony of this whole thing may actually be that both will realize that Jon Snow should have been king - but never will be because of the things Ned Stark did. Had he sent Jon to Rhaella on Dragonstone, so that the boy could go into exile with Viserys and Daenerys he may have become king in the end. But not this way. It may even be that people only begin to buy into Jon's heritage because Dany and Tyrion accept him as their Targaryen relations. Perhaps this whole thing will remain a secret throughout the whole series simply because there is no time or need to publicly announce (nobody would care anyway if there are more wights than living people by then - winter is going to be cruel).

 

There is simply no need for Jon Snow's body to be still alive. That would be cheap. His spirit survives in Ghost which is why he isn't dead. Varamyr isn't dead, either, right? Merely living his second life. Jon could spend the remainder of the series in Ghost and would still be technically not dead in the ultimate sense. His spirit wouldn't be affected by any resurrection spell that brings back his body - be it the kiss of fire or the wight spell - since the spirit is safe and separate in Ghost. The problem will be to unite body and spirit again (or to find a new body for Jon which could also be a possibility - Varamyr tried it, and where he failed Jon could succeed) not the resurrection thing.

 

I never said it would Jon vs Dany, those are your words not mine. Yet, what if Tyrion dies by the time they meet? Dany will likely be coming North by the that time. Last I checked, the North clearly is a part of the realm, and the Others still constitute a threat to the realm if they don't make it past the Neck. 

 

How many times do I have to say this? She wouldn't willingly dethrone her late brother's son; it goes against her character. She will fight Aegon, because she will learn he is an impostor. The realm doesn't hate Jon, he has a lack of enemy houses with the exception of the Boltons and Lannisters whom everyone hates anyway. Jon would have legitimacy if proven. Legitimacy matters in this environment, and Dany would be the usurper. Succession is not based on military force, but male primogeniture. 

 

Then what is the point of his secret royal heritage and strong Arthurian parallel if it doesn't have an effect on the political storyline. If it remains a secret the whole time then there is no point to including it in the story. There are a lot of king hints in the story, and GRRM said having clues point somewhere only for a different outcome to occur makes the author a liar, and he is not a liar. 

 

There is as GRRM doesn't do full-scale resurrections, and hinted that Jon is alive. Varamyr is biologically dead, and his spirit can't return to his body. Jon being in Ghost for the rest of the series would do nothing for Jon's character arc, and makes R+L=J pointless. His mind would dissolve into Ghost, as Varamyr says. Jon being in another body won't work, and again, it wouldn't do anything for his arc and makes R+L=J a waste of print. No one would recognize him in another body. His spirit would be affected as it would go back into his body with help from BR.   

 

 

George is already using resurrection stuff as a cheap trick in his story. Yes, his resurrected people aren't the same, but they are still resurrected - it was he who introduced the whole concept in the first place, no one was asking for that. He has only said Cat won't be a POV again - I actually think that's a mistake since nothing could show her changed character better than actually depicting her thought process - not that this is a general rule. Besides, only Catelyn and Beric were actually dead - Jon Snow will have been alive all that time, being trapped in Ghost. In his case, only his body will have been that, and that does not count. His spirit won't be restored by the resurrection spell since it was in the wolf. Now, Jon will still be changed quite severely thereafter considering how much time he spends in Ghost since the animal slowly takes over the mind of the warg during his second life. I'd imagine George wants to explore that angle with Jon Snow 2.0 or else he wouldn't established that skinchanger rule in the first place (or we'll get a cheap excuse as to why Jon isn't affected by that). Or perhaps the wolfish behavior will subside in time after he is permanently back in his own body.

 

We don't even know yet that there will be a sacrifice in Stannis' camp, not to mention that all we do know is that greenseers themselves feed of the life energy/blood that is sacrificed to a heart tree, suggesting that the whole thing will fuel Bran's powers as a greenseer rather than come off as weird-distance spanning transfer of life energy. I mean, that's fan fiction expectancy, right? Jon isn't even close to a heart tree right now, and there is no reason to believe that people will take him beyond the Wall to the grove. Just as the weird notion is that Shireen is going to be sacrificed by Mel to revive Jon accidentally while she is actually trying to resurrect Stannis whose alleged corpse would be far away. The Shireen sacrifice thing will involve Stannis, if it happens this way in George's books, and thus it will only happen after father and daughter are at the same place again. Not to mention that Mel has no reason to actually try to resurrect Jon Snow - she could do so by accident if she gives him the kiss as part of the traditional R'hllorian burial rites, but there is no possible reason why the hell she would believe that Jon Snow is actually worth saving. Surely his death proves that he is not Azor Ahai. And an alliances/working relationship between Bran/Bloodraven and Mel is out of the question for the time being considering that she thinks they are agents of the Great Other.

Jon as a wight is actually even more likely considering that this whole 'corpses in the ice cells' plot has to lead anywhere (and it is no coincidence that they were brought up again in the last chapter) - if Jon Snow's corpse is going to be thrown in there, he may very well become infected with the Others' wight spell when they are activated, too. Ice is pretty good at conserving dead meat, the notion that it will also help to keep a comatose guy alive is ridiculous. The man would simply freeze to death in there even if he does not bleed out. You know, people who no longer eat and drink and have lost quite a lot of blood have serious issues keeping their body temperature constant. Not to mention that everybody at the Wall should have more pressing concerns in the very near future than trying bring Jon Snow back. Staying alive and in charge/regaining power will become more important for Jon's allies than bringing him back - especially since pretty much nobody should consider that possible or a great idea. I'd be surprised if we got five or so Ghost chapters before Jon finally returned into his body - if he continues to be a POV at all (which we don't know yet - Melisandre has been introduced as a POV to continue to tell the story at the Wall, that much is clear).

 

If there was only one hero in this story, and if there weren't three Targaryen siblings married to each other who took the three-headed dragon as their symbol, and if not all the explicit clues we have been given by the author since AGoT pointed towards the fact that the three dragon heads are going to be the three dragonriders, this three-headed dragon thing could make some sense. It isn't the case, though, and thus it doesn't. It makes no sense at all. No author in his right mind writing a story as complex as this comes up with such esoteric notions. Explaining this kind of twist to the casual reader not familiar with fringe theories on the Internet would then need a rather awful amount of reasoning to explain that. I mean, you realize that Daenerys is the one who gets lots and lots of prophecy and magic thrown into her face, and every tiny bit of that underlines and refers to her specialness while Jon Snow gets nothing of that throughout the first five books (which are supposed to be more than two thirds of the entire series). If that was all distraction or more or less for nothing the whole Dany story is going to turn out to be a waste of pages. This isn't a one woman show, but that girl is at the center of everything.

No, he isn't using it as a cheap trick, but to give a message and further the story. Cat is practically Nemesis incarnate, and shows the true face of a life of revenge. Jon's body would be dead, kept alive by fire, and it would eat away at his memory and personality as time goes on. Varamyr doesn't say how long it takes for the mind in the animal to change. Jon would only be in Ghost for a short time. He had Varamyr reveal that to hint what would happen to Jon. BR would send his spirit back to his body. 

 

The Hammer of the Waters required a thousand human sacrifices at a weirwood. One sacrifice by a weirwood could be used for healing. The Hammer of the Waters in the ocean wasn't close to a weirwood either yet it happened. Greenseers can see beyond the trees, and thus, move beyond them. Selyse wouldn't sacrifice her daughter to resurrect a bastard LC of the NW. That is what I'm saying, Mel's contribution is accidental. She means to make on offering to R'hllor that ends up being used to revive Jon akin to MMD being used to bring life to the eggs without so much as a spell being said. Ice preserves, and a hard frost actually saved Adrian Scrope's life after the Battle of Edgehill by freezing his wounds, preventing him from bleeding out. This is also the same universe where a girl walks into a pyre, and comes out unharmed. 

 

There is only one AAR. Aegon and his sisters have nothing to do with the prophecy. They aren't even mentioned. The prophecy never mentions three dragons, but one dragon with three heads or aspects. What you describe is a red herring, IMHO. The reader has been led to believe it refers to three dragons and their riders as exemplified by Jorah offering to be on of the heads. This series is steeped in ideas and ifnluences form countless other works, full of esoteric things since there is plenty of magic involved if you look such as the Arthurian parallels with the Isle of Faces with the Isle of Avalon as an example.Stannis has prophecy thrown in his face as well does that make him AA? The prophecy refers to a single person. It clearly isn't Dany since it goes against GRRM's rules regarding prophecies not being too literal or too easy. The reference to her "specialness" is blatant in a work where the author frequently creates expectations to toy with them, and pull the rug out form under the reader while Jon's hints are subtle. Was Cat's story a waste of pages if she is just killed off in the RW? Your argument boils down to ignoring her journey for the destination. By that thinking, the Odyssey was boring since it just had Odysseus return home in the end. Dany isn't at the center of everything, She isn't at the center of the KL plotline or the Wall.   

 

 

Robert stuff:

 

Ned says 'Robert would never harm me or mine'. That would include Jon Snow. According to Ned, Robert loved Lyanna even more than Ned loved Lyanna. That is a strong thing to say after everything that has transpired in the war - and we know that Ned loved Lyanna enough to break with the Stark statue tradition in the crypts. Jon Snow isn't only Rhaegar's son, he is Lyanna's, too. Go on, and claim that it is a certainty that Robert would kill the only thing that remains from Lyanna Stark, an innocent child, the nephew of his best friend. I don't buy that. Elia Martell was nothing to Robert, and he very much hated Rhaegar. But he did not command the murder of Rhaegar's children, he simply did not punish Tywin for the deed. Not to mention that he was right about the fact that they had to kill Aerys - all he did was not punishing Jaime for that, either. Which is actually the nice thing to do. Fifteen years later the man realizes that the exiled Targaryens may become a serious threat to his dynasty. That is another matter - Daenerys as Drogo's wife is a threat to the Baratheon dynasty, and despite the fact that he is not alive to see it, a Targaryen dynasty is the biggest threat his heirs and successor will have to face.

 

However, a Targaryen prince raised as Ned Stark's bastard who conveniently also did not look Targaryen would be no real threat to Robert. I'm pretty sure if Robert had been with Ned at the tower they would have come up with that plan to hide Lyanna's child together. Ned may have originally feared for the life of the child considering his fallout with Robert over the murder of Rhaegar's son back in KL, but that changed upon his return when Robert learned about Lyanna's death. Nobody thought Ned would conspire with Theon and Balon against Robert despite the fact that he had Balon's son as his ward - the chances that any Targaryen loyalists would rise for a Starkish looking boy who may actually be Ned Stark's bastard is ridiculous. How could they be really sure that this wasn't just talk? Not to mention that no Targaryen loyalist ever rose for Viserys III during Robert's reign. A potential pretender completely under the control of the Lord of Winterfell was no threat to anyone.

Except Ned knew Robert didn't know about Jon. How do you think Robert would react to knowing that his bride actually willingly left him? If Ned knew that Robert, the man he knew for years, wouldn't harm Jon then he wouldn't have hidden Jon from Robert. This is exemplified by seating Jon as far away from Robert as possible at the feast. Robert's reaction to seeing their corpses shows how he feels towards the Targaryens. Aerys murdered Ned's father and brother, and he was the king that needed to be overthrown. Drogo wasn't a threat to the Baratheons until after Robert put a hit on her. A Targaryen heir in Westeros who is the son of Rhaegar is more dangerous than exiled Targaryen heirs across the Narrow Sea. 

 

Yes, it clearly would be a threat as he is still Rhaegar's son. Who would Robert need to hide Jon from? Ned was hiding Jon mainly from Robert, because he knew Robert would be inclined to kill the child. Even when they reconciled, Ned didn't reveal Jon to him. Because Theon was obviously taken as a hostage and had no ties to the Starks while Jon was taken in to be protected, the opposite of Theon's situation, and he is tied to the Starks through his mother. They would rise if they knew Robert was coming into conflict with Ned over the presence of Jon, who is said to be Rhaegar's son. I doubt they woul dthink Robert would war with his childhood friend if that wasn't the case. That news would spread quickly. Jon would come of age in less than two years no longer subject to Ned, and being the late son of the Prince of Dragonstone makes him a threat. Enemies of Robert would seek to use him. 

 

Your idea that Jon Arryn would choose between Robert and Ned is completely baseless, not to mention that Ned would still have the Tullys as his allies. The man would do everything in his power to prevent such a thing, not to mention that Ned himself agreed to force Jon to join the NW. If the truth ever came out that would have always been the way to settle things. Crushing Jon's head against a Wall wouldn't be the only way to settle things, you know.

 

And who knows - perhaps Robert actually suspects something about that. He asks about Jon's mother during the same conversation in which he eventually talks to Ned about Dany's marriage to Khal Drogo. A mere coincidence or something more? If there is a man who should raise more than one eyebrow at the thought of Ned Stark fathering a bastard it would be his best friend...

Jon Arryn is Robert's Hand, and clearly knows the dangers of an almost mature son of Rhaegar alive in Westeros. Even Aemon felt he had to go to the Wall to avoid being used against his brother. Ned having the Tullys as allies ignores that Jon Arryn is Hoster's good-son as well as Ned. To side with one would be to side against the other. Ned never forced Jon to join the NW. Reread AGoT, it was Jon's own decision. Ned would never force his late sister's son to join the NW. 

 

Robert clearly didn't as he had nothing to go on regarding Jon's heritage. Dany's marriage coming right after is pure coincidence. I don't see how Robert would go from honorable Ned fathering a bastard to he is hiding Rhaegar and Lyanna's son. Besides, Ned wouldn't be the first honorable man to father a bastard. 

[Mithras]

They shared the same sleeping skins every night, and he went to sleep with her head against his chest and her red hair tickling his chin. The smell of her had become a part of him. Her crooked teeth, the feel of her breast when he cupped it in his hand, the taste of her mouth . . . they were his joy and his despair. Many a night he lay with Ygritte warm beside him, wondering if his lord father had felt this confused about his mother, whoever she had been. Ygritte set the trap and Mance Rayder pushed me into it.

 

Mance-Rhaegar allusions are well known but Ygritte-Lyanna allusions are not so obvious. Here might be one of them, if we replace Ygritte-Mance with Lyanna-Rhaegar and think about Lyanna’s “trap” into which Rhaegar "pushed" Jon.

 

ETA: This Ygritte-Mance vs. Lyanna-Rhaegar symbolism suggests the Oedipal pattern where Jon sleeps with his “mother” and slays his “father”.

[lakin1013]

 

Bran Vras has a similar idea about Rhaegar seeking out a special female line somewhere in his The Winterfell Huis Clos. I'm not 100% sure which section it's in, but I think it might be A True Queen.

 

 

Good point.

Thanks for the link.

[Lord Varys]

Well, Jon Connington should have serious issues with that Rhaegar-stealing bitch Lyanna Stark. He even resents Elia for being Rhaegar's wife despite that the fact that this was an arranged marriage and he never loved her, but the fact that he never even has thought of Lyanna Stark in his two chapters suggests that her very existence is quite a strong trauma for him. The presence of Elia 'Lady Lance' Sand (a girl with Elia's name about the age Lyanna was at Harrenhal with her traits) most certainly is going to trigger some sort of response from him, although it remains to be seen whether George will give us that from his POV or Arianne's.

 

Fire Eater,

 

we don't know where legitimized children come in the line of succession since children usually are only legitimized when there are no trueborn heirs. Yet, for instance, in the case of Daemon Blackfyre his supporters thought Daemon came before Aegon's other trueborn child, the Princess Daenerys Targaryen Martell, in the line of succession. That at least establishes that male legitimized bastards can make a claim against their trueborn siblings. Not to mention that, since there was no proof that Daeron II was not Aegon IV's son, Daemon Blackfyre actually tried to steal both his half-brother's and his half-sister's birthright. Daeron II was the crowned and anointed king, after all.

 

Addam and Alyn were only legitimized after Addam had mounted a dragon, but it is you who are insisting that this was done because Addam succeeded where Alyn failed. You have no textual evidence for that assumption, and can thus not use this whole scenario as evidence for this 'dragon trial' idea in regards to Jon Snow. I don't know if there will be such a thing but if there is it won't be variation of the Addam situation since that clearly wasn't dragon trial.

 

Jace's involvement in the whole thing suggests that he was aware of Corlys' feelings and possibly even about the real parentage of the boys. He and Corlys convinced Rhaenyra together - certainly he couldn't have been ignorant to everything that was going on if he was actually taking charge around that time. And I'm pretty sure if Laenor was not the father of Rhaenyra's sons she would have been rather blunt about that once that Marilda woman and Corlys claimed that the boys were Laenor's.

 

TPatQ is a heavily edited version of Gyldayn's full account. It isn't a full story and it has a lot of plot holes due to the editing. We don't know if the full text elaborated a little more on the dragonseeds and their potential ancestors. Ulf at least has the Valyrian looks. That gift thing is ancient practice from before the abolishment of the Long Night, but even when that was still practiced not every bastard would have been acknowledged.

We can safely say Aegon I never fathered any bastard considering that he may have been infertile. But Aenys I would be a good candidate for a womanizing Targaryen king - but considering his non-confrontational nature and his rather strong-willed wife (Alyssa Velaryon actually asked Maegor whether he was too craven to mount a dragon, and seems to have been one of his major opponents during the succession wars) it is actually quite possible that Aenys never acknowledged any child he fathered on another woman to not offend Alyssa. And while I believe Viserys I never actually cheated on Alicent, I could see him fathering multiple children back in the 90s after his father had become Prince of Dragonstone and they all lived there. Viserys was married to an 11-year-old child bride, hardly a thing you sexually enjoy if you aren't into that type of thing.

Even if TPatQ and TWoIaF gave us all available information on the dragonseeds - which they don't - it is not a necessity to assume that the historians knew whose descendants the dragonseeds was. Especially not if they were descending from multiple unrecognized Targaryen bastards.

 

Corlys and Rhaenys could have sided with Aegon II and the Greens if they felt offended by how Rhaenyra behaved. The fact that they didn't suggests that they knew what kind of man their son had been, and that they didn't blame Rhaenyra for getting the necessary semen elsewhere. Nobody forced the Velaryons into camp Black. Bottom line is that a lot of real world nobles don't care about who fathers their children as long as they have heirs - especially not if they resent the wives they were forced to marry. And if you have a gay son you usually learn quite early that it is quite unlikely that you'll get any grandchildren from him.

 

I find your whole scenario of Dany and Jon on opposing side in all that rather implausible. But if such a scenario comes to pass I really don't see how even Rhaegar's ghost showing up and revealing everything that should suddenly sway all of Daenerys' supporters to Jon Snow's side. You won't survive backing down on that for long. Who is to say the Mother of Dragons would not continue posing a threat to Jon Snow in the eyes of his followers like Maester Aemon did after the Great Council? She can't join the NW, so Dany would most likely have to go to Silent Sisters, right? That's not something she will be even considering... Daenerys never looks back, or she is lost. Those are her words, not mine. She is like Stannis in that regard. She cannot let go of her claim to the Iron Throne after she has taken it - and she will take it, if the original outline is any indication.

 

I don't think Daenerys will go North. That would be strange since that would imply that we got thousands of pages in which the Others are neither breaking the Wall or invading the North by circumventing it. Another whole volume (or even more, considering how the Second Dance plays out) where effectively nothing important happens at the Wall in the Others department would be too much. Thus my guess is that the Others will advance at least to the Neck while Dany and Aegon are fighting their little or big war down in the South.

Hell, perhaps Jon Snow even gets a little Gandalf at the Battle of Five Armies moment there, showing up with the sole survivors from whatever has transpired up in the North during the last battle between Dany and Aegon and slapping some sense into them.

 

The question in regards to the Jon hints is whether they are hints towards his heritage or his eventual station. Those are two different thing. His Targaryen blood may become important in the plot, and he may play a crucial role, but that doesn't mean he has to sit on the throne even if he was the rightful king. People can die and all, even sacrifice them. If this Others thing is supposed to be a big conflict somebody has to die, and the three dragon heads are at the top of that list, Jon Snow more than the other two simply because he has the desire to prove himself and do the right thing.

 

George hasn't hinted at the fact that Jon Snow is alive. He has replied to a question about Jon Snow's death something like 'So you think he is dead, do you?' That doesn't mean he isn't dead, or does it? And strictly speaking he isn't dead considering that Varamyr isn't completely dead yet, either. I do not expect Jon for hanging out in Ghost for the rest of the series but if he did he would still not yet being dead, right? We could even get chapters titled 'Jon' and all in that situation.

 

And Jon taking over another body would actually be quite interesting in regards to the whole blood and magic issue. Would he still have 'special blood and skills' in that case? What are spirits in Martinworld? And so on.

 

Beric's soul/spirit whatever is constantly either restored or brought back from the afterlife by that spell Thoros uses. That wouldn't be the case with Jon Snow's resurrection. Nothing suggests that the fire spell is consuming the body/brain, it is consuming or burning the life energy/soul. But that would be, in my scenario, shielded or safe from the spell because Jon's spirit would be in Ghost and the spell would only resurrect the body, not bring the soul back.

Not to mention that Beric's state only worsened because he was brought back six times. One time may not even affect your personality all that much - perhaps roughly as much as an extended stay in the body of a wolf. Considering that we don't know how long Jon will stay there I'd not be convinced that he'll return to his body tomorrow. People have other things to do right now than bringing him back. Both Bran/Bloodraven and Melisandre. There is also no reason to believe that another skinchanger can push somebody back into his body - if Jon returns into his own body he'll most likely have to do that himself rather than have the wizard do it for him (although I expect Bran to try to teach him how to do it).

 

Not to mention that this whole plot may lead into a completely different direction. Jon could go on some sort of weird spiritual past-exploring journey. Bran could have him leave Ghost and travel to the Lands of Always Winter jumping from heart tree to heart tree or something like that. We know from Varamyr and Bran that you can skinchange the weirwoods - that's how greenseeing works, after all.

 

The Children were making a huge spell when they were causing the Breaking. The mistake there is that anyone is actually sacrificing to the trees. The sacrifices are for the greenseers. They taste the blood, and they grew stronger by that, and then they may be able of doing quite astonishing things. Although it is also possible that the Children used some other type of blood magic that had nothing to do with the weirwoods when they caused the Breaking. They are not necessarily limited to one type of magic.

 

Let's just say I'd be massively surprised if things turned out like you imagine them. Involuntarily diverted magic to heal Jon Snow when the people doing that will have other intentions? Really? I can't see that. Dany did know perfectly well what she was doing and what she was trying to accomplish. She wanted to hatch the dragon eggs, and that's what she did. There is no reason to believe that magic in this world only works if you actually say the proper words. Perhaps it is enough to think the right thoughts, to be the right person, and to do the right things. That clearly worked in Dany's case.

 

We don't have any solid information on the prophecy since we don't have its text, but there is no reason to believe that this Azor Ahai guy is actually reborn since everything we know about the Targaryen version of the prophecy - the one mentioned the three dragon heads - doesn't say anything about a reborn hero. You cannot simply conflate various traditions simply because the people in the series do so - that's their mistake. Perhaps whatever the Asshai'i scrolls says refers to the same guy as the Targaryen prophecy - but perhaps not. Who is to say what's the case while we don't have enough information?

 

The Targaryen sigil is important because it depicts three people - Visenya, Aegon, and Rhaenys - as one dragon with three heads. This may be a hint to the Targaryen prophecy, it is surely not a coincidence. The idea that there is only one dragon is not supported by the text since it is not clear whether the dragon Rhaegar is mentioning in the vision is actually a person. You just assume that.

 

George's prophecies are usually easy enough to decipher. You don't have to look for hints and vague clues throughout the whole novels to figure something out. Even subtle clues are quite obvious when you catch them. You don't have to build elaborate theories to try to understand the plot of those novels. None of the prophecies that have actually come to pass have been difficult to decipher. Take Cersei, for instance:

 

- numbers of children (literal)

- marrying the king instead of the prince (literal)

- deaths of the children (one third confirmed to be literal)

 

We even have Cersei herself confirming that Margaery isn't the 'younger more beautiful queen' as she herself confirms that Margaery isn't more beautiful than she was or is.

 

The Ghost's prophecies are also quite straightforward, the same is true for the visions and prophecies in the House of the Undying that have come to pass. There are a couple of unclear things left, but that doesn't mean we need to look for the most outlandish explanation to resolve this whole thing.

 

Dany, Jon, and Tyrion (and Bran, Sansa, and Arya) aren't Catelyn or Ned. They aren't characters that are doomed from the beginning, nor are they non-POV characters like Robb. Their stories progress at a much slower pace, they are all build up to contribute something to the grand finale, whereas other characters clearly aren't set up for that. It is not only Jon Snow who is destined for something important. And any author who threw all the savior and special destiny at his readers as George did with Daenerys will better deliver on that rather than coming up with a twist like 'Gotcha, I fooled you all!'

 

Not to mention that a broader scope, the unifying, transcending aspect of peoples and heroes working together to solve this crisis should come up again. This series doesn't have as many POVs as it does for no reason. The Others seem to be threat to everyone, even the Children of the Forest (or else they would not help and train Bran), and the great mistake Marwyn warned people at the end of AFfC may turn out to be to only look for one savior when in fact there will be many (at least three).

 

Robert stuff:

 

You actually think Robert didn't know what was going on between Rhaegar and Lyanna? I don't think so. Lyanna was a minor at the time she was abducted so every time they had sex one could say it was rape, right? Not to mention that we yet lack textual evidence that Lyanna actually went willingly with Rhaegar - that does not seem to be what has happened.

 

Do you think a craven like Robert would actually have commanded the murder of Rhaenys, Aegon, Rhaella, or Viserys had they been captured alive by his forces? Very unlikely. In fact, a Jon-like scenario could have been what happened to any male Targaryen children taken alive. Viserys and Aegon would have been raised as Robert and Ned's wards, and then been forced to join the NW at an opportune time. There would have been no reason to murder or go to war with Ned over Jon Snow if Robert had found out who the boy actually was. Murdering (royal) children is a heinous crime even in a world as barbaric as Westeros. What happened to Jaehaerys and Maelor during the Dance, and Jaehaera during the Regency was exceptionally brutal - and even an ass like Aegon II actually pardoned the pretender boy king Gaemon Palehair rather than executing him like Trystane Truefyre (this actually makes me think Gaemon may have been Aegon's bastard, with the mother simply being forced to confess that his father was not the king so that Aegon II could spare the boy's life). If things were this civil close to the end of the Dance, I'd not expect Robert to actually murder 2-3 innocent children at the end of his war - it is one thing to not punish criminals and another to actually command a crime.

 

And your idea is hilarious that Drogo wasn't a threat to Robert - if Robert hadn't send assassins after Daenerys, Varys and Illyrio would have sent their own assassins making Drogo believe it was Robert (or found another way to convince him to invade Westeros - that was the plan, and Robert wasn't stupid enough to realize what a threat a Targaryen pretender could be to his dynasty).

 

Ned forced Jon to join the NW. Jon asked his uncle about it when he was drunk, but if you read carefully between the lines it is quite clear that once Ned has decided that he would go to KL there was no longer a place for Jon at Winterfell, and thus he didn't have much of a choice there. Catelyn makes it clear that she wouldn't suffer his presence at the castle in Ned's absence, and Ned himself says that when the time comes he'll tell Jon himself that he has to take the black. That's how that chapter ends. Later, in Bran's fall chapter we learn from Bran that Jon is sullen and angry, suggesting that his father had told him that his happy days are inevitably over.

I know that technically no one can be forced to take the black - criminals can choose between swearing the vow and accepting the punishment for their crimes. Normal volunteers can leave until they have sworn the vow yet Jon Snow wouldn't be welcome back home in Winterfell in any case - that much his father apparently made clear to him.

 

It is a pity that we lack a POV for that important conversation but clearly Ned didn't tell Jon Snow who he actually was nor did he offer him the choice to accompany him with Arya and Sansa to KL (since one imagines that Jon would have taken that choice rather than the Wall thing if it had been offered to him).

[Alia of the knife]

They shared the same sleeping skins every night, and he went to sleep with her head against his chest and her red hair tickling his chin. The smell of her had become a part of him. Her crooked teeth, the feel of her breast when he cupped it in his hand, the taste of her mouth . . . they were his joy and his despair. Many a night he lay with Ygritte warm beside him, wondering if his lord father had felt this confused about his mother, whoever she had been. Ygritte set the trap and Mance Rayder pushed me into it.

 

Mance-Rhaegar allusions are well known but Ygritte-Lyanna allusions are not so obvious. Here might be one of them, if we replace Ygritte-Mance with Lyanna-Rhaegar and think about Lyanna’s “trap” into which Rhaegar "pushed" Jon.

 

ETA: This Ygritte-Mance vs. Lyanna-Rhaegar symbolism suggests the Oedipal pattern where Jon sleeps with his “mother” and slays his “father”.

 

I have always felt the irony in the writing of this as Jon of course thinks of Ned.

 

I go back and forth. I definitely think that Rhaegar might have been conflicted and that Jon at times mirrors his personality, however, Rhaegar also gave the Tower its name, much to Neds bitterness, so I can also see him not having any regrets either. :dunno:

[Alia of the knife]

Jon Connington does wear a wolf skin cloak, so maybe his memories are bitter indeed..............

 

Interesting that another book I'm looking to read regarding King Aurther, this perspective has Merlin looking at Guinevere and wishing she'd been drowned at birth, and its not because she did anything.

 

I imagine that there are many after Harrenhal that wished Lyanna had been drowned at birth.........

[Ygrain]

Interesting that another book I'm looking to read regarding King Aurther, this perspective has Merlin looking at Guinevere and wishing she'd been drowned at birth, and its not because she did anything.

 

I imagine that there are many after Harrenhal that wished Lyanna had been drowned at birth.........

Ugh. Which version of the legend is that?

[Alia of the knife]

Ugh. Which version of the legend is that?

I don't know yet, I'll have to read it to see what the perspective is.

If it's from the standpoint that she distracted him from destiny, that's not unlikely as it says he was supposed to make a royal marriage with another princess.

I guess it's not unlike Edward IV and Elisabeth Woodville and Warwicks animosity to Edwards Queen.

[Seiya2003]

ive read a lot theory about Jon snow = Ice, Dani = Fire.. why i never read someone thought About Jon snow = Fire, Arya stark = ice
I know it seems ridiculous, but IF JON snow is not dead and he is son of Rhaegar does it make him qualified be Fire? he is now Targaryan :D And If He is A Fire, who will make a better candidate to be ice than arya stark??

Jon to Arya
''Different roads sometimes lead to the same castle''.

Ned To arya
You, Ned said, kissing her lightly on the brow, will marry a king and rule his castle, and your sons will be knights and princes and lords and, yes, perhaps even a High Septon.

[Alia of the knife]

ive read a lot theory about Jon snow = Ice, Dani = Fire.. why i never read someone thought About Jon snow = Fire, Arya stark = ice
I know it seems ridiculous, but IF JON snow is not dead and he is son of Rhaegar does it make him qualified be Fire? he is now Targaryan :D And If He is A Fire, who will make a better candidate to be ice than arya stark??

Jon to Arya
''Different roads sometimes lead to the same castle''.

Ned To arya
You, Ned said, kissing her lightly on the brow, will marry a king and rule his castle, and your sons will be knights and princes and lords and, yes, perhaps even a High Septon.

Agreed

[Kingmonkey]

I've been pursuing a theory lately that involves the Ghost of High Heart, and it has lead me to consider a passage that's always bothered me in a slightly different light. I want to chuck this out there and see what you lot think.

She turned her head sharply and smiled through the gloom, right at
Arya. "You cannot hide from me, child. Come closer, now."

Cold fingers walked down Arya's neck. Fear cuts deeper than swords, she reminded herself.
She stood and approached the fire warily, light on the balls of her feet, poised to flee.

The dwarf woman studied her with dim red eyes. "I see you," she whispered. "I see you, wolf
child. Blood child. I thought it was the lord who smelled of death..." She began to sob, her little
body shaking. "You are cruel to come to my hill, cruel. I gorged on grief at Summerhall, I need
none of yours. Begone from here, dark heart. Begone!"

There was such fear in her voice that Arya took a step backward, wondering if the woman was
mad. "Don't frighten the child," Thoros protested. "There's no harm in her."

The standard interpretation here is that TGoHH has seem Arya's losses, and sees her future as a killer with the FM. However this doesn't seem to explain her reaction. Is Arya fated to kill more people than all the warriors of the Brotherhood who are there? Have none of them suffered equal loss?

TGoHH calls Arya over, smiling. She knows who Arya is. After studying her carefully, she calls her "Wolf child", and brings up Summerhall, something of a non-sequitur it seems. She sobs, and her voice is full of fear. Arya surely hasn't brought vastly more grief to TGoHH's hill than many others, and it's odd that the Ghost smiles at first and only after looking more closely at her reacts in this way.

What is special about Arya that someone might notice if they look carefully? One thing that comes to mind is that Arya looks like another "wolf child", Lyanna. Lyanna and Summerhall are both associated with Rhaegar. Rhaegar was on a journey in the Riverlands when he abducted Lyanna, somewhere close to High Heart. Plenty of people have speculated that Rhaegar had been consulting with TGoHH.

So maybe TGoHH was reminded of Lyanna when she looked at Arya? Seems to me this may open another possibility for an R+L=J reveal along with Howland Reed.

[Shinjuku Thief]

"Robert will never keep to one bed," doesn't seem to me like the kind of character assessment that someone driven by hormones would make.

[Alia of the knife]

I've been pursuing a theory lately that involves the Ghost of High Heart, and it has lead me to consider a passage that's always bothered me in a slightly different light. I want to chuck this out there and see what you lot think.


The standard interpretation here is that TGoHH has seem Arya's losses, and sees her future as a killer with the FM. However this doesn't seem to explain her reaction. Is Arya fated to kill more people than all the warriors of the Brotherhood who are there? Have none of them suffered equal loss?

TGoHH calls Arya over, smiling. She knows who Arya is. After studying her carefully, she calls her "Wolf child", and brings up Summerhall, something of a non-sequitur it seems. She sobs, and her voice is full of fear. Arya surely hasn't brought vastly more grief to TGoHH's hill than many others, and it's odd that the Ghost smiles at first and only after looking more closely at her reacts in this way.

What is special about Arya that someone might notice if they look carefully? One thing that comes to mind is that Arya looks like another "wolf child", Lyanna. Lyanna and Summerhall are both associated with Rhaegar. Rhaegar was on a journey in the Riverlands when he abducted Lyanna, somewhere close to High Heart. Plenty of people have speculated that Rhaegar had been consulting with TGoHH.

So maybe TGoHH was reminded of Lyanna when she looked at Arya? Seems to me this may open another possibility for an R+L=J reveal along with Howland Reed.

Actually, I've always thought her time with the FM would be brief as I think they challenge her to forget Ned and Jon, which she will never do.

Needle, like Elrics Stormbringer, is her souls tether.


I've always taken this bit that Arya was not only a reminder of Lyanna, but of actually Jenny as well.

[Alia of the knife]

Speculation on Arya:

My featherbed is deep and soft,
and there Ill lay you down,
Ill dress you all in yellow silk
and on your head a crown.
For you shall be my lady love,
and I shall be your lord.
Ill always keep you warm and safe,
and guard you with my sword.

And how she smiled and how she laughed, the maiden of the tree.
She spun away and said to him,
no featherbed for me.
Ill wear a gown of golden leaves,
and bind my hair with grass,
But you can be my forest love,
and me your forest lass.

George R.R. Martin, A Storm of Swords (A Song of Ice and Fire, #3)