R+L=J v 150

[Sly Wren]

My question is if Jon Snow has Targaryn blood will he be able to ward into a dragon? I have it playing out like this; the ironborne that's sailing to meet Dany will be used for his ships to transport her army to westeros where she will meet Jon Snow assuming he's still alive and they end up together somehow dunno how realistic that is but that's my theory

Yeah--this is always the hard part of these kinds of scenarios. We've got the original synopsis suggesting that everyone will have to cooperate. So, I assume that would mean Dany with others, potentially including Jon. How? I dunno either. But I'm not at all sold on the warging of the dragon. Jon wargs with Ghost. Dany's bonded to dragons. Seems like that's just how they roll.

 

You should not trouble the elite fandom that comprises the R + L = J group with such trivial inquiries.

:lol:

 

Wait--are you saying anyone who answers is innately un-elite? Am rethinking my course of action. . . 

 

Consider this a mild warning :whip:

Sansa is into bondage? Littlefinger will be pleased. Or is that just her Agency?

[PodrickMayne]

Yea I just joined this forum so I haven't read every single Jon/dany theory on here relax a little sansa

[IceFire125]

 

For one example, look at Dany's visions of the House of the Undying. The following passage is cited as evidence of R+L=J.

A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness.

 

The common interpretation is that this represents Jon (Lyanna's son) at the wall, due to the the association she has with the blue roses. This ties right into the R+L=J theory very nicely and is one of the few clues after AGoT, where the most of the evidence for the theory is found, due to most of it being Ned's thoughts, reflections and fever dreams, and all of that is up for interpretation.

 

However within those same visions, are visions of the past, present and future, some of which never come to pass.

 

The series isn't finished. But from the 5 books so far, RLJ theory has ever gotten stronger.  ACOK is where the visions in the HoTU is at, yet in book 3 to 5, there are more RLJ hints, hints of Jon's having royal blood, and his descriptive affinity/imagery of ICE and FIRE surrounding him.

 

Martin said publicly that a big mystery reveal will be in book 6.  Most of us, RLJ fans, believe it's the reveal of Jon's true parentage.  I believe at first to Jon himself and the readers, and later to the rest of Westeros.  However, I think the big reveal to the realm will be in ADOS.

 

Yea I just joined this forum so I haven't read every single Jon/dany theory on here relax a little sansa

 

Welcome to the boards.  Martin used interesting hints to weave the threads between Jon and Dany with each other.  Personally, I think Dany will fall in love with Jon (or the idea of Jon after dealing with fAegon---thus the desperate longing and connection of anything to her brother, Rhaegar) in book 7, but I don't think Jon will feel the same or the same intensity as Dany feels for him.

[Prince of Ghost]

Yea I just joined this forum so I haven't read every single Jon/dany theory on here relax a little sansa

Everyone is welcome here :)

[yanmaodao]

I almost missed but happy 150, R+L=J!  :cheers:

 

I wonder what other exciting integers we will scale before Winds comes out and finishes this whole thing. 

[Kingmonkey]

But the mystery knight is described As both small AND with a booming voice.

The other examples are all large men.

 

The point is that those are the ONLY other examples. 

 

This is not an empirical analysis, it's literary analysis. It's not equivalent to saying "There are ten white swans and whoops, here's a black swan, I guess swans can be black too." The words an author decides to use in describing something represent their own descriptive biases and their intent in conveying ideas and information. If you read "There were ten beautiful ducklings and one weird gangling ugly one with a long neck", we should consider the possibility that the ugly duckling is in fact a swan rather than just shrugging our shoulders and saying "Some ducklings are ugly, so what?"

[Kingmonkey]

I almost missed but happy 150, R+L=J!  :cheers:

 

I wonder what other exciting integers we will scale before Winds comes out and finishes this whole thing. 

 

The board is going to roll back to the start of 150 when the update is finally done. I'm guessing that'll happen about the same time TWoW comes out, so my money is on 150 being the TWoW thread. ;)

[PodrickMayne]

Here's my thing... The options for Jon are - A.He's dead and his story is over (I don't think anyone thinks this is the outcome) B.He was not mortally wounded and survives somehow in which case I'd assume he is now free from the nights watch and sets out on his own agenda (also I think unlikely ) C. He is revived in some way... Most theories I've read see this happening by way of Melisandre... Now if this happens does he lose memories of himself or his past like Beric Donderrion? Does he become a shell like Lady Stoneheart? Now I have my own personal theory.... I believe it will be revealed in the first few chapters of the new book that the Jon Snow that was murdered by his brothers of the Night watch was another Glamour of the red priestess an with no one knowing better Jon Snow begins his quest to reclaim North meeting up with Rickon (who has been sorely missed and probably in his early teens by now) now that's just my theory again I've only read all the books once and haven't gone thru every theory here

[Lady Dyanna]

Everyone is welcome here :)

Where are the pompoms when you need them? ;)

Also welcome to you PodrickMayne!

[PodrickMayne]

Thanks for the welcome all

[spoon89]

Absolutely possible. Or that the vision meant something else in whole or in part. Or that she was just hallucinating. Martin's given us lots of reason to be wary of relying on or chasing prophecies and visions.

 

Quick question: when you say "hints that it may be incorrect," are you saying that the theory is assumed to be absolutely true, like a scientific formula or equation, and you have found evidence it may not be true at all? Just saying it's not a sure thing? Arguing that evidence is incomplete/equivocal and other options are also possible/likely? Or are you arguing something else entirely? 

 

Prophecy and visions in ASoFaI seems to fall into two categories, foretelling and prophecy (division used in Tolkien's works). A foretelling is when someone makes a prediction about an event that predicts the circumstances of a future event, but isn't or can't be directly acted on (Glorfindel's Prophecy about the Witchking in LotR is a foretelling, MMD's "curse" in ASoFaI and most of what the GoHH talks about or predicts seems to fall into the category). Prophecy is when someone makes the same sort of prediction as a foretelling and people actively seek to fulfill or avoid the prophecy. It tends to drive those characters trying to fulfill or avoid prophecy like a wind and at least in TWoFaI, they seem to fail more often than not.

 

A lot of people firmly believe in R+L=J to the ;point that they see it as inconceivable that it's not. I think that a many of them have read the books, hop online and read the theory and simply jump on the band wagon without looking at or considering the relevant passages and possible alternatives themselves (a lack of critical thinking), and are unwilling to considering the possibility that the commonly accepted interpretations of the passages are incorrect and refuse to consider that many of the pieces of evidence may be subjected to different interpretations.

 

If R+L does equal J most people will be please (as long as he does something interesting with it) and if it doesn't, I think a lot of people will loose their shit and the accusations of GRRM changing the the story will fly, since people haven't considered possible alternatives to the mainstream analysis that is so well documented on the web.

[Ygrain]

A lot of people firmly believe in R+L=J to the ;point that they see it as inconceivable that it's not. I think that a many of them have read the books, hop online and read the theory and simply jump on the band wagon without looking at or considering the relevant passages and possible alternatives themselves (a lack of critical thinking), and are unwilling to considering the possibility that the commonly accepted interpretations of the passages are incorrect and refuse to consider that many of the pieces of evidence may be subjected to different interpretations.

How fortunate then that some of us went online only after ADWD was released and did their share of independent critical thinking, which only incidentally correlates with the "commonly accepted interpretations".

 

ETA for grammar

[PodrickMayne]

You ever wonder if GRRM trolls these forums? I wouldnt out it past him. He makes it pretty apparent he keeps up on fan theory I bet he spreads misinformation and speculation like R+L just to laugh in our faces and drink our tears

[Sly Wren]

 

Prophecy and visions in ASoFaI seems to fall into two categories, foretelling and prophecy (division used in Tolkien's works). A foretelling is when someone makes a prediction about an event that predicts the circumstances of a future event, but isn't or can't be directly acted on (Glorfindel's Prophecy about the Witchking in LotR is a foretelling, MMD's "curse" in ASoFaI and most of what the GoHH talks about or predicts seems to fall into the category). Prophecy is when someone makes the same sort of prediction as a foretelling and people actively seek to fulfill or avoid the prophecy. It tends to drive those characters trying to fulfill or avoid prophecy like a wind and at least in TWoFaI, they seem to fail more often than not.

 

A lot of people firmly believe in R+L=J to the ;point that they see it as inconceivable that it's not. I think that a many of them have read the books, hop online and read the theory and simply jump on the band wagon without looking at or considering the relevant passages and possible alternatives themselves (a lack of critical thinking), and are unwilling to considering the possibility that the commonly accepted interpretations of the passages are incorrect and refuse to consider that many of the pieces of evidence may be subjected to different interpretations.

 

If R+L does equal J most people will be please (as long as he does something interesting with it) and if it doesn't, I think a lot of people will loose their shit and the accusations of GRRM changing the the story will fly, since people haven't considered possible alternatives to the mainstream analysis that is so well documented on the web.

Fully agree on your ideas re: prophecy and foretellings. Martin seems to both use them narratively and warn readers off reading too much into the things he wrote for us to read--how's that for messing with us.

 

As for RLJ--readers invest in all kinds of things for all kinds of reasons. I'm arguably overly invested in Bran's getting home (which I don't think he will--hence my worrying). But regardless of why any one reader likes or doesn't like RLJ, there is evidence in the text to support its feasibility. Even its likelihood. And everyone reads differently and for different reasons--so, arguing over who is or who is not reading "critically" or "correctly"--not sure it makes much difference. We all read and end up liking what we like. Some want to explore other ideas. Some don't. And everyone has their reasons. With as many threads as we've got on this forum, can always find a way to explore what we'd prefer. Easy.

 

None of the evidence is set. Novels aren't done. Can't read 2/3 or a poem, story, or novel and say--"oh yeah. Got that. No need to read more." And I fully admit that there are other options--for my money, if R isn't daddy, Arthur Dayne is the next likeliest candidate. But people are going to react to all kinds of theories and events when the next books come out. Can't see why RLJ would be any different, one way or another. Hopefully it will be a good read.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

 
This gave me a thought - with the advent of Mturk, it actually would be pretty easy, and inexpensive, to take a (somewhat) scientific poll on this.  Plus you could have demo stats and even break it down by show watchers, book readers, and combo.  Hell, could probably even have westeros.org or equivalent site members as a subpop, although that'd likely take significantly more cash to get a good sample.

Reddit did a poll quite recently, amongst 18265 people. RLJ scored 97.2 %.

https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1ijKnK4nVZ8oJM9WwV2ors01X3ixooZoxYpo3QsQ3IQ0/viewanalytics

[spoon89]

How fortunate then that some of us went online only after ADWD was released and did they share of independent critical thinking, which only incidentally correlates with the "commonly accepted interpretations".

 

I'm sorry if my choice of words offended you and I'm sorry I offended you if you were, it's not what I intended. It is great that you have your own strong, self formed opinion, too many people in modern society are sheeple and don't engage in critical thinking in their day to day lives, never mind critically analyzing what they read, watch or hear. Dissenting opinion from the mainstream doesn't and shouldn't be treated with hostility, so long as it's logical, coherent and presented in a thought provoking manner,.

 

R+L=J is what you believe and is likely correct since this particular "mystery" was heavily front loaded in the series, in the first book of what was originally going to be trilogy. Personally I feel that it will prove out, but I like to think that I am open minded enough to consider other possibilities and offer them as points of discussion to provide some sort of contrary view point to the mainstream, if for no other reasons than to only shake things up a bit, provoke discussion and offer alternatives that people may not have considered.

[spoon89]

Fully agree on your ideas re: prophecy and foretellings. Martin seems to both use them narratively and warn readers off reading too much into the things he wrote for us to read--how's that for messing with us.

 

As for RLJ--readers invest in all kinds of things for all kinds of reasons. I'm arguably overly invested in Bran's getting home (which I don't think he will--hence my worrying). But regardless of why any one reader likes or doesn't like RLJ, there is evidence in the text to support its feasibility. Even its likelihood. And everyone reads differently and for different reasons--so, arguing over who is or who is not reading "critically" or "correctly"--not sure it makes much difference. We all read and end up liking what we like. Some want to explore other ideas. Some don't. And everyone has their reasons. With as many threads as we've got on this forum, can always find a way to explore what we'd prefer. Easy.

 

None of the evidence is set. Novels aren't done. Can't read 2/3 or a poem, story, or novel and say--"oh yeah. Got that. No need to read more." And I fully admit that there are other options--for my money, if R isn't daddy, Arthur Dayne is the next likeliest candidate. But people are going to react to all kinds of theories and events when the next books come out. Can't see why RLJ would be any different, one way or another. Hopefully it will be a good read.

 

I'm guilty of investing a lot time and energy into the series over a long period of time, which is exactly why I have considered alternative view points and analysis. I read AGoT back in 97 and discussed it around the gaming table with eight others. Even back then R+L=J and other items were points of discussion and the cause of multiple rereads and vocal discussions, which increased in volume as we played and drank.

 

I'm looking forward to final releases, with hopes for two solid books in the series, if not one more after that to tie up lose threads because there is so many lose threads and some I feel that some characters have so far to go to get where they need to go, distance and development wise. Another possibility would be an epilog/history book set in the future and revealing the long term fates of whomever survives and gives some sort of historical overview of the series to connect and explain things (similar to the world book) like a Maester's historical overview (that way someone else can write it, with guidance from GRRM).  

[MtnLion]

A lot of people firmly believe in R+L=J to the ;point that they see it as inconceivable that it's not. I think that a many of them have read the books, hop online and read the theory and simply jump on the band wagon without looking at or considering the relevant passages and possible alternatives themselves (a lack of critical thinking), and are unwilling to considering the possibility that the commonly accepted interpretations of the passages are incorrect and refuse to consider that many of the pieces of evidence may be subjected to different interpretations.

I have personally witnessed the opposite, of late.  People will research, yes, but somehow become convinced "that GRRM just wouldn't do something that obvious".  They will find a radical R=L#J forum, join, and jump onto that bandwagon.  Then with their new brothers post nebulous denials on the R+L=J thread. 

[Avalatis]

 

 

 

You're all thinking about this in terms of whether it could be considered reasonable to apply the word booming in this context. I never suggested it could not be. The question is irrelevant though, because we are dealing with a single text written by a single author. The words are not Meera's, the words are GRRMs. 

 

If we stop asking these generic questions about the meaning of words and start asking the relevant question of how the author actually uses the words, we get a different picture. Time and time again, GRRM associates booming voices with extraordinarily big men. Not just battle-trained men, but really, really big ones. The giants of Planetos. Benjen's voice does not boom. Ned's trained voice of command does not boom. Jaime's voice does not boom. Tywin's voice does not boom. Moqorro's does, Gregor Clegane's does, Robert's does, Noye's does, Greatjon's does, Strongboars does.

 

GRRM gives us a story of a notably small knight and uses a phrase he regularly, and virtually exclusively uses in association with notably big men, to emphasise that they are big. Brushing this aside as inconsequential requires ignoring the author's own usage. 

 

I think Bael's Bastard already answered this for you. Your PoV is from Howland Reed's kids. So second hand information (not a direct description from GRRM) that could have been exaggerated. Howland Reed at the time was a teenager who was over awed at the event he was at. The Knight of the Laughing Tree defeated the 3 knights of the squires who roughed him up and told them to train their squires better. Howland obviously thought the world of this mystery knight.

 

Booming voice might be something you associate with a great warrior which is what Howland thought. That doesn't necessarily mean the knight actually spoke in a booming voice.

[SFDanny]

Here's a list of people with booming voices:
Donal Noye ("a chest like a keg of ale")
Robert Baratheon ("muscled like a maiden's fantasy")
A Herald (a professional bellower)
Northern knight who almost captures Tyrion ("immense")
Greatjon Umber (Greatjon. He's Jon, and he's Great. 'Nuff said)
Wendel Manderly (The third fattest man in Westeros)
Rioter demanding bread (no description)
KotLT (A skinny 14 year old girl with magic +3 Helm of Booming)
Only the Frickin' Mountain ("His deep voice boomed within the helm." Sound familiar? #KneelingMountain=KotLT, get hype!.)
Mace Tyrell ("a once-powerful man gone to fat")
Erik Ironmaker ("20 stones heavy")
Bronze Yohn Royce ("...tall as the Hound... looked as though he could break most younger men like twigs in those huge gnarled hands")
Lyle Crakehall ("Strongboar")
Some Boisterous Tyroshi Sailors in Braavos
Ser Godry "Giantslayer" Farring ("The knight overtopped him by six inches")
Moqorro ("a monster of a man, as tall as Victarion himself and twice as wide")

 

 

The point is that those are the ONLY other examples. 

 

 

As Garrett was undoing the clasps of Jaime's greaves, the tent flapped open. "Here at last, are you?" boomed his aunt. (AFfC 496) bold emphasis added

 

Martin uses the past tense to describe, at least, one woman's voice as booming. I'd add this to the list for your analysis, Kingmonkey.